Cymru Lions v Wallabies, 3rd Test Match Thread, Sat July 6, 1100am

Swiwi.

Date: Saturday, July 6
Venue: ANZ Stadium
Kick-off: 20.00 Sydney (11.00 Ireland)
Referee: Romain Poite (France) :eek:
Assistant referees: Chris Pollock (New Zealand), Craig Joubert (South Africa)

B&I LIONS: 15 Leigh Halfpenny, 14 Tommy Bowe, 13 Jonathan Davies, 12 Jamie Roberts, 11 George North, 10 Jonathan Sexton, 9 Mike Phillips, 8 Toby Faletau, 7 the Tullow Tank, 6 Dan Lydiate, 5 Geoff Parling, 4 Alun Wyn Jones (c), 3 Adam Jones, 2 Richard Hibbard, 1 Alex Corbisiero.

Replacements: 16 Tom Youngs, Mako Vunipola, 18 Dan Cole, 19 irishbucsfan, 20 Justin Tipuric, 21 Conor Murray, 22 Owen Farrell, 23 Manu Tuilagi

WALLABIES: 15 Kurtley Beale, 14 Israel Folau, 13 Adam Ashley-Cooper, 12 Christian Lealiifano, 11 Joe Tomane, 10 Justin Bieber, 9 Will Genia, 8 Wycliff Palu, 7 George Smith, 6 Ben Mowen, 5 Kane Douglas, 4 Big Kev, 3 Ben Alexander, 2 Stephen Moore, 1 Benn Robinson

Replacements: 16 Saia Faingaa, 17 James Slippper, 18 Sekope Kepu, 19 Rob Simmons, 20 Ben McCalman, 21 Michael Hooper, 22 Nick Phipps, 23 Jesse Mogg

When danthefan – correctly it turned out – predicted Wales would contribute 10 players to the starting XV for Saturday’s test decider, little did we expect to awake to the news that one of those to make way would be Irish legend Brian O’Driscoll. In what should have been a fitting final Lions test match for BOD, Gatland dropped his bombshell, and we all awoke to the resignation of supporting Wales Plus in Warren’s bid for Lions glory. At least if the Lions play more of the turgid footie from last weekend, it won’t be Brian’s fault.

International football is no place for sentiment, but I still find the decision baffling. Granted Father Time has caught up somewhat with the Clontarf man, and he’s not quite the player of yesteryear, but a cool head, over 100 test caps, and the respect of fellow players and fans alike struck me as the kind of qualities needed for the white hot battle of a deciding encounter, where the top 2 inches really do matter.

There will be ample discussion on the forum about the B&I Lions team, so I’ll start by previewing Australia. Deans has made just the one change to the starting XV, bringing in the only remaining survivor from 2001, George Smith. Smith had been in irrepressible form for the Brumbies prior to injury, and with Warburton winning the battle of the breakdown last week, this seems an excellent choice.

It is more on the bench where questions could be asked. Despite the carnage in Test 1, Deans has selected only 2 backline reserves. Maybe Hooper is a closet 12 after all. Wallaby supporters are not that enamoured of Simmons & McCalman (he of RWC 2011 anonymity), and there were calls for Hugh McMeniman and Peter Kimlin.

For the Lions, Gatland has arguably strengthened the power of the pack, but SOB’s deserved promotion to the starting line-up is all rather overshadowed by changes elsewhere. Corbisiero is a very welcome return to the scrum where Vunipola remains suspect, and Faletau gets a deserved chance to provide some go-forward. In the backs, Phillips & Roberts return.

In terms of where this game might go - scrum is one area where the Lions may still feel they have the ascendancy, particularly with the return of Corbisiero, but otherwise it’s not hard to feel Deans has played his cards better: he has a settled line-up, a Captain Fantastic in Horwill and a team willing to get one back for Big Kev, home advantage, momentum, and Will Genia. The Lions are no longer playing to send BOD out on a high, and have chopped & changed the team again. If the game does descend into scrum penalties and Halfpenny’s kicking, or if the bench becomes important, especially because of early injury, the Lions could well win, but I think it’s not unreasonable to install Australia as favourites.

A final note on Romain Poite, who brings a sort of eccentric French flair to his referring, which sometimes goes awry. Hopefully he is consistent tomorrow, and the series isn't decided by a poor decision, admittedly less likely these days with the extended use of the video ref.

Let's hope that the final game of this tour - which has generated so much debate over the last few months on the forum - is a fitting finale to the series.

.ak

Lions lose a leader, Australia gain one in Horwill.

This Lions series has been in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. Let's hope the last game is a good one.

A2LUE42

If the Lions suffer injuries from 10-15, it could end up looking a very makeshift unit. But given the way they have been utilised i'm not sure it will make any difference to how the backline attacks.

A2LUE42

What odds on having Phillips and Murray on the pitch at the same time?

Teferi

Love the title

Richard Hillman

Its a shame about Captain Warburton. The weak spots in the team are at 1, 5, 7, 10 and 14. It's a disgrace that Shane Williams does not make the bench. After all he has given at 6N and Lions level, this is not how a Great should be treated. The point of a Lions tour has been lost on Warren Gatland.

thebaz

a throwback to the not so distant past , of struglling and cringing watching Ireland labour under Kidney, wanting them to do well , but kind of knowing things had to get worse, in order to get better , I'll be watching but with little passion.

LeeroyJones

Cmon now. SOB line break from the halfway to the 22, regather possession, out to Sexton for a crossfield to Tommy Booooooooooooowe

Hippo

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Cmon now. SOB line break from the halfway to the 22, regather possession, out to Sexton for a crossfield to Tommy Booooooooooooowe

You're assuming there that Philips will either 1) pass the ball to JS or 2) pass the ball quickly to JS. Perhaps.

For me, apart from the abysmal use made of what ball has been won by the Lions in the 2 tests, the key has been Genia's performances. I re-watched last weekend's game, and he was under no pressure whatsoever for almost the entire match. He was tackled for the first time (late) in the 73rd minute by Lydiate and for the second time a few minutes later by Warbs. The guy has the freedom to direct play exactly as he wishes, and he does it particularly well, even if most of his little pop passes are forward. The Lions simply have to get to him and make his life a little less comfortable.

I'm not even going to comment on the idiocy of the Drico non-selection, or that this is in some way the 'form' selection, given Philips over Murray.

Royale with Cheese

Not that I agree with what gatland has done, but this is what I hate about the lions. Petty bickering about team selections from all supporters. Fans can't seem to actually get behind the idea of a united team, the whole tour becomes more about getting as many players as possible from your own country in the test team. This isn't just about bod being dropped, it happens every tour. The mass hysteria this decision has caused has just been a bit much for me. I'm not sure I see the point in the lions anymore. A divided team and fans who nearly always get beaten.

Lapin

Cosmo Kramer

Le vieux renard wrote: »

Wow, where to start? In what should have been a fitting final Lions test match for Irish legend Brian O’Driscoll, Gatland dropped his bombshell, and we all awoke to the resignation of supporting Wales Plus in Warren’s bid for Lions glory. At least if the Lions play more of the turgid footie from last weekend, it won’t be Brian’s fault.

Slight generalisation there. I'm sure there are many reading this who will not be resigned to that at all and - whether they'll admit it or not - are just waiting in hope of the opportunity to give Gatland a good kicking if the Lions lose on Saturday. Don't think I blame them for it either.

andrewdcs

CROFT DROPPED !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

WorldRugby99

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Not that I agree with what gatland has done, but this is what I hate about the lions. Petty bickering about team selections from all supporters. Fans can't seem to actually get behind the idea of a united team, the whole tour becomes more about getting as many players as possible from your own country in the test team. This isn't just about bod being dropped, it happens every tour. The mass hysteria this decision has caused has just been a bit much for me. I'm not sure I see the point in the lions anymore. A divided team and fans who nearly always get beaten.

i tend to agree.Whole point of lions is about unity supposedly and all fans uniting behind the one team from the four nations. The fact there is so much argument,the fact that there are plenty of people who say they will be supporting the aussies just so gatland can be left with egg on his face etc kind of makes the whole concept of the lions pointless. I guess in future there has to be a more independent coach who isnt currently involved or so heavily connected with one country-what was nick mallett up to this summer for example? Then people would feel a more independent selection was taking place and perhaps there would be less argument.

prettyboy81

Prediction Wallabies 31 v Lions 23 & this will all be forgotten come November Series

No BOD No Victory!

I am pie

Would have been 12 with Gethin Jenkins and Warburton available. Although you could say that with O'Connell and Healy fit there would have been 2 more Irish starters. Who knows if Ferris was fit he might well have got a start too.

Some of the press reaction in England does ignore the heavily English biased sides of the past, am sure we have had Lions sides with 10+ English players in big tests before. The Scots have their noses out of joint that Gray hasn't been given a shot also. Wyn Jones is a fairly underwhelming captain for such a big game, his performances have been to his level if you ask me, he is not world class, neither is Parling.

Anyway, the best thing to come out of this will be a cracking Six Nations clash between Ireland and Wales this year, ...England and Scotland will be very motivated to prove a point also.

matthew8

Gatland's selection has overshadowed a fairly big call by Deans to first of all send Hooper to the bench and drop Gill from the team after making great impressions last week for George Smith, and also having only 2 backs on the bench, both of which are only good at 1 position. If AAC goes down for Australia, there will be a hell of a lot of shuffling.

Swan Curry

In the furore over the single stupidest decision ever made,many people seem to have missed that Gatland has put Gray on the bench.In the last 20 minutes,where Gatland's gameplan will involve Wales+ defending a lead,he's going to bring on the worst second row on tour,a player that is unable to ruck effectively.It's madness

Australia to win this by a bit and it's all Gatland deserves.

Also,Hibbard starting is madness.The extra strength he'll bring to the scrum will be counteracted by his laziness around the park.He offers nothing in the loose.

jamiedav2011

matthew8 wrote: »

Gatland's selection has overshadowed a fairly big call by Deans to first of all send Hooper to the bench and drop Gill from the team after making great impressions last week for George Smith, and also having only 2 backs on the bench, both of which are only good at 1 position. If AAC goes down for Australia, there will be a hell of a lot of shuffling.

In fairness I can see some sense in that, they're gambling slightly on the fact that they'll only have to make one outside back switch.

All of Folau, Beale, JOC, AAC can play more than one, and in some cases 2-3 positions.

Having Mcalman and Hooper to come on is a good option.

.ak

Smith will push the Australians that inch closer to what they've trying to achieve. I can see them playing some lovely rugby on Saturday. Hopefully. Another snore-fest like last Saturday would ruin what should be an exciting tour that only happens every 4 years.

h2005

Probably childish on my behalf but I hope the Aussies hammer them now.

Piliger

Tactically Gatland has shown his hand because I believe this is what he wanted since the beginning ... only HIS Welsh side can win ... he wanted to play with 15 Welsh if he possible could. ALl in total denial of the beating by Ireland not so long ago.

If the Lions win, he will escape the criticism despite the shameful treatment of BOD. If the Lions lose, which I really believe they will, sadly, it will make the whole Lions project a laughing stock for a generation.

LeeroyJones

Scrumtime: 60/40 in favour of Oz
Lineouts: 60/40 in favour of Oz
Breakdown: 75/25 in favour of Oz. Inclusion of Smith combined with the exclusion of Warburton, Heaslip & BOD. Quick ball from Genia up against Phillips to boot.
Goalkicking: 50/50.

Sexton is capable of steering the Lions better than JOC of Oz but I fear JOC won't need to steer and Oz throwing the ball around at the backs could be lethal.

Not a drop of rain between now and then with the temerature set to be about 12 degrees or so.

Australia to run riot in the second half after some opening 40 sparing.

toomevara

h2005 wrote: »

Probably childish on my behalf but I hope the Aussies hammer them now.

Get the sentiment for sure, but we can't be going down that road..If only for Sexton, SOB and Murray..Now if there was any way Gatland could lose but the lads win...well that'd be good....

Tox56

Piliger wrote: »

ALl in total denial of the beating by Ireland not so long ago.

.

Sweet suffering jesus, only just got home but I don't know if I really want to read back the other threads

I am pie

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Scrumtime: 60/40 in favour of Oz
Lineouts: 60/40 in favour of Oz
Breakdown: 75/25 in favour of Oz. Inclusion of Smith combined with the exclusion of Warburton, Heaslip & BOD. Quick ball from Genia up against Phillips to boot.
Goalkicking: 50/50.

Sexton is capable of steering the Lions better than JOC of Oz but I fear JOC won't need to steer and Oz throwing the ball around at the backs could be lethal.

Not a drop of rain between now and then with the temerature set to be about 12 degrees or so.

Australia to run riot in the second half after some opening 40 sparing.

I think the lineout is weaker than that for the Lions, for that reason alone Gray is on the bench.

Buer

I am pie wrote: »

I think the lineout is weaker than that for the Lions, for that reason alone Gray is on the bench.

It's not really. The Lions haven't got great line out ball but they have only lost one throw in two tests. The line out certainly hasn't been fluid at all but they've certainly won the vast majority of their own ball and disrupted a bit of Australian ball too.

Rightwing

I think 10 from any 1 country is the joint record. The Welsh owe Gatty big time now, and this may be just enough to get us over the line. If POC wasn't injured I don't think the dropping of BOD would have been as big an issue.

wp_rathead

Wyn Jones has been fantastic this tour, must be so proud to be lions captain

Obvo is sh!te how no Brian in squad, that has been discussed to death
Was great opportunity to revive the Roberts-O'Driscoll partnership of the 09 tour which was very exciting

Also Hibberd over Tom Youngs is a puzzler, youngs was my motm in 1st test

Everywhere seemed to have a feel of Saipan today with O'Driscoll being dropped

Coburger

Although Wales have lost on a few occasions to Australia the games have been quite close. And Wales would be a better team with Bowe and Sexton in it.

I think a few people are going a bit over the top about BOD. Defensively, they are weaker at the 13 but they are probably strong offensively (would have liked to have seen Tuilagi in the mix).

Anyone know why Heaslip was dropped. That's been forgotten with BOD out.

Buer

Rightwing wrote: »

I think 10 from any 1 country is the joint record. The Welsh owe Gatty big time now, and this may be just enough to get us over the line. If POC wasn't injured I don't think the dropping of BOD would have been as big an issue.

http://www.lionsrugby.com/history/match_archives.php?section=lineups&fixid=58650

Rightwing

Buer wrote: »

http://www.lionsrugby.com/history/match_archives.php?section=lineups&fixid=58650

Jesus,,,, 20 yrs ago. Looking at some of those names, where have the years gone. A good team that was.

JagerScout

lets go oz

subfreq

Rightwing wrote: »

Jesus,,,, 20 yrs ago. Looking at some of those names, where have the years gone. A good team that was.

Used to see Arran Pene in Otago all the time. John Timu was such an amazing player and Inga the winger. Such great players.

thomond2006

Congratulations to irishbucsfan on his call up.

shuffol

Think the Lions will win this, they've got the pack right and thats where the game will be won. Wales though having a very poor record against Australia have always caused them lots of trouble but just failed to get over the line, with Sexton in the side this shouldnt be a problem. Hoping for a Lions victory but wouldnt be gutted if Australia won it purely for the amusement of the inevitable fallout.

subfreq

George Smith v Sean O'Brien will be worth the admission fee alone.

Tssk

Could someone explain why Tuilagi is on the bench for me?Genuinely. Am I being unfair in saying that he is a big powerful guy to bust through lines and wouldn't have much subtlety/passing ability? I don't get how BOD goes from starter to outside the squad if that is the case.
It seems to me like we've been using a giant hammer to break into a tough safe. And now we will try a slightly larger hammer,when maybe the skill of a locksmith would be more appropriate.. To not to have that back up plan at least seems a bit silly.
Also to lose the captain who is there for his leadership etc and then drop the most experienced guy who has seen it all,just doesn't add up either...

Tox56

subfreq wrote: »

George Smith v Sean O'Brien will be worth the admission fee alone.

Funny how things work, I was looking forward to him v BOD 12 years on, and the one test he plays is the one test BOD doesn't

Rightwing

Tssk wrote: »

Could someone explain why Tuilagi is on the bench for me?Genuinely. Am I being unfair in saying that he is a big powerful guy to bust through lines and wouldn't have much subtlety/passing ability? I don't get how BOD goes from starter to outside the squad if that is the case.
It seems to me like we've been using a giant hammer to break into a tough safe. And now we will try a slightly larger hammer,when maybe the skill of a locksmith would be more appropriate.. To not to have that back up plan at least seems a bit silly.
Also to lose the captain who is there for his leadership etc and then drop the most experienced guy who has seen it all,just doesn't add up either...

I also think this guy should be in the starting line up. Eddie Jones said during the week he'd have gone with Roberts & Tuilagi. I wanted Tuilagi and anyone else.

LorMal

Scenario 1 - Lions win - everybody happy - well done Warren - BOD hailed as an inspiration etc etc

Scenario 2 - Lions lose - everybody raging - Bye Bye Warren - BOD absence blamed for loss - no leadership etc etc

Either way - BOD has bags of cash - nice holiday coming - tasty missus - made for life

I still have sh!t temp job, big mortgage, no holiday, huge stress..

Therefore can only be very slightly devastated about all this...

Podge_irl

Tssk wrote: »

Could someone explain why Tuilagi is on the bench for me?Genuinely. Am I being unfair in saying that he is a big powerful guy to bust through lines and wouldn't have much subtlety/passing ability? I don't get how BOD goes from starter to outside the squad if that is the case.
It seems to me like we've been using a giant hammer to break into a tough safe. And now we will try a slightly larger hammer,when maybe the skill of a locksmith would be more appropriate.. To not to have that back up plan at least seems a bit silly.
Also to lose the captain who is there for his leadership etc and then drop the most experienced guy who has seen it all,just doesn't add up either...

I would have started him tbh, he looked good in the last midweek game, looked as good as Roberts on tour and is obviously more match fit.

Gatland has him on the bench because he is an "impact player". Because if Roberts attempting to run through players isn't working they can bring Tuilagi on and have him attempt to run through players. Gatland doesn't seem to realise that impact player isn't referring to the collisions as they get tackled.

danthefan

LorMal wrote: »

Scenario 1 - Lions win - everybody happy - well done Warren - BOD hailed as an inspiration etc etc

Scenario 2 - Lions lose - everybody raging - Bye Bye Warren - BOD absence blamed for loss - no leadership etc etc

Either way - BOD has bags of cash - nice holiday coming - tasty missus - made for life

I still have sh!t temp job, big mortgage, no holiday, huge stress..

Therefore can only be very slightly devastated about all this...

Ahhhh stop!

It's sports. Sports isn't supposed to make any sense! Does 30 guys chasing a ball around on the other side of the world have any material effect on my life? **** no. But I'll still feel unbelievable tension, every emotion under the sun, I'll feel like putting the remote through the TV, I'll curse Gatland, want to hug whoever scores the first Lions try, be devastated or delighted at the end.

It's not rational. But it's brilliant.

wittycynic

Despite the fact that I disagree with the dropping BOD, this is probably the best line up Gatland has fielded. The Wallabies are pound for pound more skillful players and have more experience playing with each other. If we head out there throwing it around, trying to play rugby, we'll get beaten. I know I'll get a hammering for this but with the right execution I believe Gatland's bosh tactics can deeply trouble the aussies.

The Welsh are the best team in the northern hemisphere so it's not surprising they'll make up the majority of the team. With that said, we have top English and Irish players in key positions that are superior to the Welsh alternatives. The Welsh spine will enable cohesion and are familiar with the gameplan and the English and Irish will bring huge impact. In addition our bench can make a significant impact, much more so than the Wallabies'.

Perhaps controversial but I'm calling a Lions win by more than seven points. Hang me out to dry if I'm wrong.

Podge_irl

wittycynic wrote: »

Despite the fact that I disagree with the dropping BOD, this is probably the best line up Gatland has fielded. The Wallabies are pound for pound more skillful players and have more experience playing with each other. If we head out there throwing it around, trying to play rugby, we'll get beaten. I know I'll get a hammering for this but with the right execution I believe Gatland's bosh tactics can deeply trouble the aussies.

Must be why Wales have so much success against Australia so.


I almost feel bad for berating Priestland so much seeing as it appears Gatland doesn't even like his fly half to play rugby.

Artful_Badger

wittycynic wrote: »

Despite the fact that I disagree with the dropping BOD, this is probably the best line up Gatland has fielded. The Wallabies are pound for pound more skillful players and have more experience playing with each other. If we head out there throwing it around, trying to play rugby, we'll get beaten. I know I'll get a hammering for this but with the right execution I believe Gatland's bosh tactics can deeply trouble the aussies.

The Welsh are the best team in the northern hemisphere so it's not surprising they'll make up the majority of the team. With that said, we have top English and Irish players in key positions that are superior to the Welsh alternatives. The Welsh spine will enable cohesion and are familiar with the gameplan and the English and Irish will bring huge impact. In addition our bench can make a significant impact, much more so than the Wallabies'.

Perhaps controversial but I'm calling a Lions win by more than seven points. Hang me out to dry if I'm wrong.

And how often does Gatlands bosh game work against SH teams ? He went into this planning on using the Welsh team and his Welsh tactics as a foundation for the Lions. Yet forgot its a team and tactics that has given the Aussies little trouble in recent games. They may have won the worst 6 nations in my living memory but before that if you recall they dropped out of the top 8 when beaten by Argentina, Samoa, NZ and Australia.

LorMal

danthefan wrote: »

Ahhhh stop!

It's sports. Sports isn't supposed to make any sense! Does 30 guys chasing a ball around on the other side of the world have any material effect on my life? **** no. But I'll still feel unbelievable tension, every emotion under the sun, I'll feel like putting the remote through the TV, I'll curse Gatland, want to hug whoever scores the first Lions try, be devastated or delighted at the end.

It's not rational. But it's brilliant.

You are right Dan. I think it is a great distraction from the dark nights of the soul.
But still, it's all a load of nonsense really though isn't it? The Lions, the heritage, the history, the glory ..etc etc Alan Thingy (munster Ireland lion) said as much in the I Times recently. Most supporters there for the holiday. Don't give a tuppence who wins. Excuse to go on the lash for 3 weeks in the sun.

And I am not one bit jealous, bitter, depressed, suicidal or anything...honest...

wittycynic

Artful_Badger wrote: »

And how often does Gatlands bosh game work against SH teams ? He went into this planning on using the Welsh team and his Welsh tactics as a foundation for the Lions. Yet forgot its a team and tactics that has given the Aussies little trouble in recent games. They may have won the worst 6 nations in my living memory but before that if you recall they dropped out of the top 8 when beaten by Argentina, Samoa, NZ and Australia.

Name me one Home nations team that has had consistent success against SH opposition in the past few years. At least Wales have been consistently close to Australia. People are fond of quoting that it's been close but no cigar for Wales in recent times against Australia, but I don't seem to remember England, Ireland, or Scotland notching up impressive series wins in the SH recently.

Artful_Badger

wittycynic wrote: »

Name me one Home nations team that has had consistent success against SH opposition in the past few years. At least Wales have been consistently close to Australia. People are fond of quoting that it's been close but no cigar for Wales in recent times against Australia, but I don't seem to remember England, Ireland, or Scotland notching up impressive series wins in the SH recently.

I'm not the one saying a team used as a backbone with tactics they are used to is the way to go to beat the Aussies though. This is a team with four nations of players to draw from, to limit the team to essentially being Wales hasnt worked and why would it when Wales couldnt even get it to work with 1-15 players with the plan drilled into them ?

Gatland should have gotten the best players together and tried to fashion a game plan to make use of their talents. He's supposed to be a world class coach after all. The point of the Lions is to make use of the talent of the NH to create a team people want to see to pack stadiums and sell TV subscriptions. Win or lose tomorrow the Lions brand is devalued after Gatlands crappy tour. Games were crap, selections were ridiculous, fans have been alienated and divided, rugby was dreadful. How is that of value to anyone ?

wittycynic

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I'm not the one saying a team used as a backbone with tactics they are used to is the way to go to beat the Aussies though. This is a team with four nations of players to draw from, to limit the team to essentially being Wales hasnt worked and why would it when Wales couldnt even get it to work with 1-15 players with the plan drilled into them ?

Gatland should have gotten the best players together and tried to fashion a game plan to make use of their talents. He's supposed to be a world class coach after all. The point of the Lions is to make use of the talent of the NH to create a team people want to see to pack stadiums and sell TV subscriptions. Win or lose tomorrow the Lions brand is devalued after Gatlands crappy tour. Games were crap, selections were ridiculous, fans have been alienated and divided, rugby was dreadful. How is that of value to anyone ?

There is no magic tactic that's going to make a collection of Home nations players world beaters. Nh rugby is in a diabolical state, and severely lacking in top talent in comparison to the SH. This year's six nations was testament to its low standards. The idea that Gatland can conduct a meeting with the players and cobble together some marvellous tactic that he somehow hasn't thought of in the fifteen years he's been working in the NH is daft.

The only thing that matters is winning and that's the one factor that will improve the lions brand. The 97 tour was dire but it was a winning tour and is immortalised. Good rugby was played in 2009 but the tour was a failure. Win ugly, win pretty, but just make sure you win.

Tox56

wittycynic wrote: »

Name me one Home nations team that has had consistent success against SH opposition in the past few years. At least Wales have been consistently close to Australia. People are fond of quoting that it's been close but no cigar for Wales in recent times against Australia, but I don't seem to remember England, Ireland, or Scotland notching up impressive series wins in the SH recently.

Ireland have only lost 2 of the last 5 v Australia and have won 3 of the last 5 v South Africa (ROG missed a conversion for a draw in one of the losses). Fair enough winning in Australia's backyard is extremely difficult, but during Wales' 8 game losing streak against Oz, only 3 of those games was actually in Australia. One was in New Zealand during the RWC, the same World Cup Ireland beat Australia (and Wales also lost against South Africa).

The less said about New Zealand the better (for everyone).