The Dylan Hartley thread [MOD WARNING POST #1]

First Up

Foxtrol wrote: »

Why do think he'd cause trouble and tensions in the squad?



You seem to think the same abrasive player on the pitch to being the same guy in the dressing room and as a person in general. I've never heard of anything negative about him off field. From personal experience I met him in Cardiff town late the night of the Heineken Cup final in 2011 when he must have been gutted and I was hammered, elated and covered in Leinster gear and he was nothing short of a gent.

If you take some Irish players from their actions on the pitch you'd expect them to be serial cheats in their day to day life and others to be found walking the streets looking for a sniff of fight to get involved in. You have to separate this stuff.

He was never far from the trouble when some English players were mis-behaving at the RWC. Pretty well publicised. But the bigger problem would be getting on with the same players as team-mates that he spent so much time being a prick to during the year. Normal competition is fine but Hartley makes a point of being provocative and obnoxious.

I am pie

I reckon Secret Agent Barnes was sent on a secret mission to remove the Lions series of it's most controversial character. Shame for the Aussie media as he would have no doubt involved himself in something and sold a few newspapers down there.

For me, a yellow would have been more appropriate. 10 mins in the bin, do it again and your off.

I can't pretend I am not glad he got the red however.

Grimebox

Bridge93 wrote: »

I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.

Its 11 weeks because it is Dylan Hartley though. If it was a more hot-headed irish player like................... no irish player is as bad as Dylan Hartley!

Bridge93

Tox56 wrote: »

Not a fair comparison, BOD and POC would likely have their previous good behaviour taken into account and they would also likely not to be so stupid just a minute after being warned by the ref, both factors hugely important in deciding the length of ban.

well how about somebody attacking somebody else's eyes only getting a week more?

First Up

Well some people have got a lot more. Hartley got 26 weeks when he did it. I guess each case is assessed individually.
In this case they were just making a point; anything more than two weeks and he was off the Lions anyway. The rest as the French put it, is "to encourage the others". They don't like refs being abused or called cheats.

Steve Perchance

Bridge93 wrote: »

well how about somebody attacking somebody else's eyes only getting a week more?

In fairness, thats the minimum penalty for contact with the eye area - proper eye gouging has seen bans a magnitude greater - didnt attoub get 70 weeks?

The penalties for ref abuse are deliberately harsh, its the point. If a yellow card or slap on the wrists was the only sanction, it'd happen a hell of a lot more.

Sure, there's less damage to any individual, but ref abuse is an attack on the game. The penalties were set to reflect that.

Schorpio

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5XTdOQV-D8

Found a perfect version up on youtube if anybody is still looking.

Ardillaun

I would have preferred a yellow card for Hartley although I don't want to see a rugby ending up with a soccer circus of ref abuse every time a decison goes the 'wrong' way.

Of the three amigos mentioned, Ashton is a bit of an eejit, Hartley a brute but Delon is something more diabolical. When he was laughing at James, I was convinced he was taunting ME for some reason.

Swiwi

Ardillaun wrote: »

I would have preferred a yellow card for Hartley although I don't want to see a rugby ending up with a soccer circus of ref abuse every time a decison goes the 'wrong' way.

Of the three amigos mentioned, Ashton is a bit of an eejit, Hartley a brute but Delon is something more diabolical. When he was laughing at James, I was convinced he was taunting ME for some reason.

Rugby (generally) has

• No diving/feigning injury
• No fans assaulting each other
• No crowding round the ref

Long may it stay that way!

Aidric

Disgusting thread.

Swan Curry

Aidric wrote: »

Disgusting thread.

Disgusting?Have a bit of bloody perspective,there's a thread in After Hours about whether rape is really rape or if women are asking for it,but this is the "disgusting thread" you decide to moan about?Cop on.

ambid

I don't like this thread. The guy made a bad mistake and is paying for it. That should be enough.

Alan Quinlan's tweet is a touch of class in this matter.

Alan Quinlan ‏@AlanQuinlan1
For all those asking, I do feel sorry for Dylan Hartley. It's a tough time for him now. Go easy on him.

Grandpa Hassan

I'm Leicester born, a huge tigers fan, and therefore not a fan of Hartley and many other Northampton players.

But I do feel sorry for him after yesterday. It is the probably the biggest disappointment a home nations player can go through. And from what I read and hear (from writers like Stephen Jones, and pundits like Matt Dawson) he is a really nice and a popular guy off the pitch. He has major psychological issues under pressure that the Saints psychologist has been trying to work through. My understanding is that he beats himself up terribly when he screws up....and I'm not sure I really want to be dancing on his metaphorical grave right now.

I'm sure Quinlan is no fan, but even he shares that sentiment

jamiedav2011

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I'm Leicester born, a huge tigers fan, and therefore not a fan of Hartley and many other Northampton players.

But I do feel sorry for him after yesterday. It is the probably the biggest disappointment a home nations player can go through. And from what I read and hear (from writers like Stephen Jones, and pundits like Matt Dawson) he is a really nice and a popular guy off the pitch. He has major psychological issues under pressure that the Saints psychologist has been trying to work through. My understanding is that he beats himself up terribly when he screws up....and I'm not sure I really want to be dancing on his metaphorical grave right now.

I'm sure Quinlan is no fan, but even he shares that sentiment

That's interesting, have you a link to any of those pieces?

Grandpa Hassan

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

That's interesting, have you a link to any of those pieces?

I can't recall when Ive read / heard the chat. So no links I'm afraid. It has been talked about on Matt Dawson's 5 live rugby show, not too long ago. Think it might have been after the premiership semi final when the panel were talking about how well he plays when not under psychological pressure (he could, possibly should, have been motm that day)

They talked about the time he spends with the club psychologist during the game at the weekend.

keith16

Aidric wrote: »

Disgusting thread.

Yeah, it's about Dylan Hartley.

Aidric

Swan Curry wrote: »

Disgusting?Have a bit of bloody perspective,there's a thread in After Hours about whether rape is really rape or if women are asking for it,but this is the "disgusting thread" you decide to moan about?Cop on.

Wind your neck in and show a bit of decency. The guy has just lost out on a Lions place and some here are rejoicing.

rrpc

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I'm Leicester born, a huge tigers fan, and therefore not a fan of Hartley and many other Northampton players.

But I do feel sorry for him after yesterday. It is the probably the biggest disappointment a home nations player can go through. And from what I read and hear (from writers like Stephen Jones, and pundits like Matt Dawson) he is a really nice and a popular guy off the pitch. He has major psychological issues under pressure that the Saints psychologist has been trying to work through. My understanding is that he beats himself up terribly when he screws up....and I'm not sure I really want to be dancing on his metaphorical grave right now.

I'm sure Quinlan is no fan, but even he shares that sentiment

Good post. I'm sure it's quite true as you can see that he's very popular with his team mates both for England and Northampton.

There's no doubt he has 'red mist' issues and doesn't think beyond the moment. I think I said it earlier on this thread or on the Lions one that I have some sympathy for him and I hope that he can move on from it.

Northampton generally seem to have issues with discipline, is that something you have observed or is it just bad luck?

First Up

So now we have "Dylan, the troubled soul" do we?
Fair enough, but he is still required to play by the rules and he hasn't been very good at doing that.

Podge_irl

Bridge93 wrote: »

I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.

The ban is 11 weeks precisely because it is Dylan Hartley. He would have gotten 50% off, as seems to be the norm these days, if he had a clean record. So it would have been a more reasonable 6 weeks. Its his own fault.

First Up

Podge_irl wrote: »

The ban is 11 weeks precisely because it is Dylan Hartley. He would have gotten 50% off, as seems to be the norm these days, if he had a clean record. So it would have been a more reasonable 6 weeks. Its his own fault.

He would still have been out of the Lions tour.

rrpc

Podge_irl wrote: »

The ban is 11 weeks precisely because it is Dylan Hartley. He would have gotten 50% off, as seems to be the norm these days, if he had a clean record. So it would have been a more reasonable 6 weeks. Its his own fault.

Delon Armitage got 8 weeks for abusing an anti-doping officer. He got a reduction of 4 (from an initial 12) for a subsequent apology and contrition but a previous red card stood against him.

There's very little abuse of match officials and it needs to stay that way.

Grandpa Hassan

First Up wrote: »

So now we have "Dylan, the troubled soul" do we?
Fair enough, but he is still required to play by the rules and he hasn't been very good at doing that.

You're being a little disingenuous in suggesting that we are giving him a get out of jail card as he is a 'troubled soul'. But the fact is that he has a certain psychological make-up that turns him from a perfectly personable individual off the pitch to a loose cannon when the pressure is on. He's been working with a psychologist for a while and I genuinely thought that he'd improved. But after this weekend I wonder whether he ever will. As, I'm sure, is Stuart Lancaster

H_S

Keeping the player out if this credit must go to Wayne Barnes. It was a tough call that could have seen him receive a serious backlash but he still made it. It's this authority that separates Rugby from other sports. If other sports associations were as tough on indiscipline it would be a benefit to these respective sports. When you look at soccer and the length of sime suspensions for more serious items such as racial abuse it's comical. Again this is just my opinion

First Up

I wish him well in his battle with his demons but I stop short of "giving him a break" over it. The game is tough enough without "loose cannons" indulging their tempers and insecurities in the name of "competitiveness".

Grandpa Hassan

rrpc wrote: »

Northampton generally seem to have issues with discipline, is that something you have observed or is it just bad luck?

I think when they happened to have three difficult players in the team in Hartley, Clarke and Lawes who regularly picked up bans (albeit the latter of which has improved his discipline of late), Mallinders response, in defending his players, was to build a siege mentality....Northampton against the world. As a result over three or four years the more they have felt victimized, the worse the siege mentality has become, and the worse the players have reacted. It seems almost like they were caught in a vicious circle....they became an 'angry' club.

I think it has improved of late with the absence of Clarke, the influence of a good few overseas players, and Hartley, their captain, seemingly back to playing good disciplined rugby. But every incident like this just sets them back. Will be interesting to see how they respond next year. I look forward to the first east midlands derby!

Note: As an amateur diagnosis, that may be complete BS.

shaungil

This isn't soccer and we don't abuse refs. Long ban given and not reduced cos of previous misdemeanours. Unfortunate timing for player but brought on himself.

sydthebeat

He didn't get 11 weeks because he was dylan hartley, he got 11 weeks because HE committed an offence which was seen as a mid range offence, an offence which should have actually carried a twelve weeks ban.

I have no sympathy AT ALL for hartley. His brain, his mouth! If an u7s player said that a pitch if have him off in a heartbeat.

The lions tour, and brand, will be better for his absence

rrpc

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I think when they happened to have three difficult players in the team in Hartley, Clarke and Lawes who regularly picked up bans (albeit the latter of which has improved his discipline of late), Mallinders response, in defending his players, was to build a siege mentality....Northampton against the world. As a result over three or four years the more they have felt victimized, the worse the siege mentality has become, and the worse the players have reacted. It seems almost like they were caught in a vicious circle....they became an 'angry' club.

I think it has improved of late with the absence of Clarke, the influence of a good few overseas players, and Hartley, their captain, seemingly back to playing good disciplined rugby. But every incident like this just sets them back. Will be interesting to see how they respond next year. I look forward to the first east midlands derby!

Note: As an amateur diagnosis, that may be complete BS.

Thanks. Amateur or not, it seems reasonable. It certainly seemed as though they were making progress and giving the captaincy to Hartley may well have been an attempt to thrust responsibility upon him in the hopes that it would lift him. It seemed to have worked until now...

rrpc

sydthebeat wrote: »

He didn't get 11 weeks because he was dylan hartley, he got 11 weeks because HE committed an offence which was seen as a mid range offence, an offence which should have actually carried a twelve weeks ban.

I have no sympathy AT ALL for hartley. His brain, his mouth! If an u7s player said that a pitch if have him off in a heartbeat.

The lions tour, and brand, will be better for his absence

Reminds me of an old joke (changed slightly for the circumstances):

Player: "Ref, what would you do if I called you a f***ing idiot?"
Ref: "I'd have to give you ten minutes in the bin for abuse of a match official"
Player: "OK, so what if I thought you were a f***ing idiot?"
Ref: "Well I couldn't do anything about that, you're free to think whatever you want"
Player: "Ref, I think you're a f***ing idiot"