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The Dylan Hartley thread [MOD WARNING POST #1]

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    #62
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Larbre34 wrote: »

    In any case, Gatland's poor call has been corrected by fate, and I would still be saying that if it was another English or Scottish hooker that had lost out, but it so happens its Best, and I hope he has a brilliant tour, there are few better pro's in the Irish game

    None of us are wholly objective on this. I wouldn't have picked Hartley but mainly because I think he would cause trouble and tensions in the squad. But I can see why he was picked ahead of Best.


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    #63
    Gordon Gecko
    Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭Gordon Gecko


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    ???????????

    I don't understand your logic here

    I was referencing his behaviour when Ireland won the Churchill cup duh


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    #64
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,896 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    First Up wrote: »
    None of us are wholly objective on this. I wouldn't have picked Hartley but mainly because I think he would cause trouble and tensions in the squad. But I can see why he was picked ahead of Best.

    Agreed, on the form of this season alone, Hartley shades it, but Best's few bad games were an anomoly and symptomatic of stresses in the squad. From the start Gatland should have been concious of potential trouble in a squad, its a tough enough thing to take a caravan of diverse guys on the road for 6 weeks and keep harmony and motivation. I know they are all seasoned pros, but that didnt stop Martin Johnson's England from acting like the Bash Street Kids on a sugar rush at the World Cup.


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    #65
    Go2Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭Go2Guy


    There are seems to be 2 tones in this thread


    1) Hartley is an ill-disciplined professional, let's discuss
    and
    2) He behaved terribly but was punished thus removing any right we have to discuss.


    I believe tone 1) is NOT against the rugby ethos, and that tone 2) goes against the boards.ie ethos.
    Thanks


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    #66
    Eponymous
    Registered Users Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Eponymous


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    You could say Hartley has been unlucky here, players utter oaths at each other, the officials, at God himself all throughout matches, mostly under their breath and in frustration. It wouldnt be natural if guys mentally wound up for big games didnt or couldnt vent.


    He's far from unlucky. Pressure or not, he's a professional rugby player. Add in the fact that he had been spoken to by Barnes not two minutes earlier about his language when speaking to him and that it was unbecoming for the captain and that if it happened again he'd have to deal with it (or words to that effect). To then have that little outburst whether aimed at Barnes or at nobody in particular gave Barnes no option. He had to back up his words with actions. I'm no fan of Barnes (who is?), but he got that passage of play spot on imho.

    Tim Robbins has it spot on. Kids see this and think it's cool to talk back to the ref, they then copy it. A few more red cards and they'll soon learn. In all my years playing I think all I've ever said to any ref is "Thank you, Sir".

    Those gloating about it however have obviously never had their dreams and ambitions crushed. Hartley has the summer now to cogitate on what this has done for his reputation and really has nobody to blame but himself.

    Congratulations to Best though, he should never have been excluded in the first place and his dignity after the initial squad announcement was remarkable.


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    #67
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Just been reading the Daily Telegraph - usually the most one-eyed when it comes to England's brilliance and superiority in all things rugby. Both their articles and reader's comments are remarkably positive about Best.


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    #68
    who_me
    Registered Users Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    Credit to Barnes and the RFU for their stance on this. If we don't want abuse of the referees to become a norm, a tough stance must be taken. Given Hartley's warning a few minutes previously, he really hasn't much of an defence.

    I doubt we'd see the same standard from the IRFU, particularly with a big tour coming; and we do have some of the most "chatty" players in the game.


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    #69
    S Barrett
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭S Barrett


    Rory Best should have been called up first day. What Hartley did on Saturday was stupid beyond belief. As a captain of Northampton he should have known better.


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    #70
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    who_me wrote: »
    Credit to Barnes and the RFU for their stance on this. If we don't want abuse of the referees to become a norm, a tough stance must be taken. Given Hartley's warning a few minutes previously, he really hasn't much of an defence.

    I doubt we'd see the same standard from the IRFU, particularly with a big tour coming; and we do have some of the most "chatty" players in the game.

    And they have had their problems with that - POC has got up the nose of more than one French ref in particular. But abuse and calling a ref a cheat is a different matter.


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    #71
    S Barrett
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭S Barrett


    First Up wrote: »
    And they have had their problems with that - POC has got up the nose of more than one French ref in particular. But abuse and calling a ref a cheat is a different matter.



    Chatting to a referee is acceptable once you dont cross the line. Hartley, in his career, has crossed every line and is now paying for it.


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    #72
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    S Barrett wrote: »
    Chatting to a referee is acceptable once you dont cross the line. Hartley, in his career, has crossed every line and is now paying for it.

    Agreed. Maybe he will reflect on it and emerge a better, nicer person but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

    Lancaster tackled a lot of the stuff that got out of control under Martin Johnston and England were the better for that. Hartley may have a job getting back in after this. He has already effectively lost his starting position.


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    #73
    S Barrett
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭S Barrett


    First Up wrote: »
    Agreed. Maybe he will reflect on it and emerge a better, nicer person but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

    Lancaster tackled a lot of the stuff that got out of control under Martin Johnston and England were the better for that. Hartley may have a job getting back in after this. He has already effectively lost his starting position.


    Lancaster has said that he will have to prove himself all over again. If all goes well Ireland could now have 5 starters in the pack when the first test kicks off in Brisbane .


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    #74
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    S Barrett wrote: »
    Lancaster has said that he will have to prove himself all over again. If all goes well Ireland could now have 5 starters in the pack when the first test kicks off in Brisbane .

    I guess that moves us on to the Lions.....


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    #75
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,556 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    S Barrett wrote: »
    Lancaster has said that he will have to prove himself all over again. If all goes well Ireland could now have 5 starters in the pack when the first test kicks off in Brisbane .
    Don't see a chance of this happening tbh.


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    #76
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    awec wrote: »
    Don't see a chance of this happening tbh.

    Nor me.


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    #77
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,460 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    I still haven't seen any replay that shows him, only the effect of what he said. Delighted to see Best on the tour, a much better man to have travelling than Hartley.


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    #78
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    awec wrote: »
    Don't see a chance of this happening tbh.

    I'd say Healy, POC and Heaslip are 'probables' at this stage, but Best and O'Brien are going to struggle.


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    #79
    S Barrett
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭S Barrett


    awec wrote: »
    Don't see a chance of this happening tbh.


    All I will say is watch this space.


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    #80
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    totallegend wrote: »
    I'd say Healy, POC and Heaslip are 'probables' at this stage, but Best and O'Brien are going to struggle.

    The major shame here is that SOB is probably the best out of the lot this year based on international form.


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    #81
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    I still haven't seen any replay that shows him, only the effect of what he said. Delighted to see Best on the tour, a much better man to have travelling than Hartley.

    Check out Balls.ie. Video clip, with a panel discussion about it and replays.


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    #82
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,896 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Just found my own post from April 30th, he didnt even make it that far......:rolleyes:


    Just hearing the squad.

    Hartley selection is a joke. The man is everything a Lion shouldnt be. Will be banned by Game 3, so Best should keep the diary free

    Lack of a third outhalf when there are 3 specialists elsewhere is just odd. The schedule is too packed for two 10's

    Sorry for Zebo and Ross


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    #83
    thebaz
    Registered Users Posts: 13,610 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    firstly Best should have been on the plane from the start , but am I alone in thinking Hartley has been punished over harshly - people say things in the heat of battle , that they regret - no one was hurt , not sure how the ref performed , but i still think it was a bit harsh on him.


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    #84
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,896 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    thebaz wrote: »
    firstly Best should have been on the plane from the start , but am I alone in thinking Hartley has been punished over harshly - people say things in the heat of battle , that they regret - no one was hurt , not sure how the ref performed , but i still think it was a bit harsh on him.

    He's got more form than Ronnie Biggs, previous episodes count hugely in disciplinary sanctions.


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    #85
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,269 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Gordon Gecko wrote: »
    I was referencing his behaviour when Ireland won the Churchill cup duh


    If thats a troll effort its a miserable fail.

    you are somehow equating churchill cup status to lions seniority, I'm afraid your in your own there :D


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    #86
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,920 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    People correctly mention that Best was excellent in the 6 Nations except for his l/o work yet don't bring up the fact that Youngs l/o/ stats are even poorer than Rory's. Youngs was also pure kack - again - on Saturday. I don't think Best is the only hooker who was hard done by in the Lions selection.


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    #87
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    thebaz wrote: »
    firstly Best should have been on the plane from the start , but am I alone in thinking Hartley has been punished over harshly - people say things in the heat of battle , that they regret - no one was hurt , not sure how the ref performed , but i still think it was a bit harsh on him.

    The way it evolved he gave Barnes no choice. He had warned him only a minute before. The minimum for the offence is 6 weeks.


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    #88
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,101 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    First Up wrote: »
    None of us are wholly objective on this. I wouldn't have picked Hartley but mainly because I think he would cause trouble and tensions in the squad.

    Why do think he'd cause trouble and tensions in the squad?
    First Up wrote: »
    Agreed. Maybe he will reflect on it and emerge a better, nicer person but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

    You seem to think the same abrasive player on the pitch to being the same guy in the dressing room and as a person in general. I've never heard of anything negative about him off field. From personal experience I met him in Cardiff town late the night of the Heineken Cup final in 2011 when he must have been gutted and I was hammered, elated and covered in Leinster gear and he was nothing short of a gent.

    If you take some Irish players from their actions on the pitch you'd expect them to be serial cheats in their day to day life and others to be found walking the streets looking for a sniff of fight to get involved in. You have to separate this stuff.


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    #89
    Grimebox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Best clip I could find

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWD300Hy6ug


    I really feel bad for him. Such a small moment of insanity has cost him so much. Even if he did say to Youngs rather than the ref, how about not saying **** like that on the pitch whatsoever? Would save him a lot of hassle.

    On the other hand, I was not looking forward to cheering for a team with him on it at all


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    #90
    Bridge93
    Registered Users Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
    Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
    If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.


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    #91
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
    Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
    If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.

    Not a fair comparison, BOD and POC would likely have their previous good behaviour taken into account and they would also likely not to be so stupid just a minute after being warned by the ref, both factors hugely important in deciding the length of ban.


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