The Dylan Hartley thread [MOD WARNING POST #1]

Swan Curry · 27-05-2013 6:18pm

Aidric wrote: »

Disgusting thread.

Disgusting?Have a bit of bloody perspective,there's a thread in After Hours about whether rape is really rape or if women are asking for it,but this is the "disgusting thread" you decide to moan about?Cop on.

ambid · 27-05-2013 7:00pm

I don't like this thread. The guy made a bad mistake and is paying for it. That should be enough.

Alan Quinlan's tweet is a touch of class in this matter.

Alan Quinlan ‏@AlanQuinlan1
For all those asking, I do feel sorry for Dylan Hartley. It's a tough time for him now. Go easy on him.

Grandpa Hassan · 27-05-2013 7:13pm

I'm Leicester born, a huge tigers fan, and therefore not a fan of Hartley and many other Northampton players.

But I do feel sorry for him after yesterday. It is the probably the biggest disappointment a home nations player can go through. And from what I read and hear (from writers like Stephen Jones, and pundits like Matt Dawson) he is a really nice and a popular guy off the pitch. He has major psychological issues under pressure that the Saints psychologist has been trying to work through. My understanding is that he beats himself up terribly when he screws up....and I'm not sure I really want to be dancing on his metaphorical grave right now.

I'm sure Quinlan is no fan, but even he shares that sentiment

jamiedav2011 · 27-05-2013 7:21pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I'm Leicester born, a huge tigers fan, and therefore not a fan of Hartley and many other Northampton players.

But I do feel sorry for him after yesterday. It is the probably the biggest disappointment a home nations player can go through. And from what I read and hear (from writers like Stephen Jones, and pundits like Matt Dawson) he is a really nice and a popular guy off the pitch. He has major psychological issues under pressure that the Saints psychologist has been trying to work through. My understanding is that he beats himself up terribly when he screws up....and I'm not sure I really want to be dancing on his metaphorical grave right now.

I'm sure Quinlan is no fan, but even he shares that sentiment

That's interesting, have you a link to any of those pieces?

Grandpa Hassan · 27-05-2013 7:30pm

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

That's interesting, have you a link to any of those pieces?

I can't recall when Ive read / heard the chat. So no links I'm afraid. It has been talked about on Matt Dawson's 5 live rugby show, not too long ago. Think it might have been after the premiership semi final when the panel were talking about how well he plays when not under psychological pressure (he could, possibly should, have been motm that day)

They talked about the time he spends with the club psychologist during the game at the weekend.

keith16 · 27-05-2013 7:32pm

Aidric wrote: »

Disgusting thread.

Yeah, it's about Dylan Hartley.

Aidric · 27-05-2013 7:42pm

Swan Curry wrote: »

Disgusting?Have a bit of bloody perspective,there's a thread in After Hours about whether rape is really rape or if women are asking for it,but this is the "disgusting thread" you decide to moan about?Cop on.

Wind your neck in and show a bit of decency. The guy has just lost out on a Lions place and some here are rejoicing.

rrpc · 27-05-2013 7:43pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I'm Leicester born, a huge tigers fan, and therefore not a fan of Hartley and many other Northampton players.

But I do feel sorry for him after yesterday. It is the probably the biggest disappointment a home nations player can go through. And from what I read and hear (from writers like Stephen Jones, and pundits like Matt Dawson) he is a really nice and a popular guy off the pitch. He has major psychological issues under pressure that the Saints psychologist has been trying to work through. My understanding is that he beats himself up terribly when he screws up....and I'm not sure I really want to be dancing on his metaphorical grave right now.

I'm sure Quinlan is no fan, but even he shares that sentiment

Good post. I'm sure it's quite true as you can see that he's very popular with his team mates both for England and Northampton.

There's no doubt he has 'red mist' issues and doesn't think beyond the moment. I think I said it earlier on this thread or on the Lions one that I have some sympathy for him and I hope that he can move on from it.

Northampton generally seem to have issues with discipline, is that something you have observed or is it just bad luck?

First Up · 27-05-2013 7:44pm

So now we have "Dylan, the troubled soul" do we?
Fair enough, but he is still required to play by the rules and he hasn't been very good at doing that.

Podge_irl · 27-05-2013 7:50pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.

The ban is 11 weeks precisely because it is Dylan Hartley. He would have gotten 50% off, as seems to be the norm these days, if he had a clean record. So it would have been a more reasonable 6 weeks. Its his own fault.

First Up · 27-05-2013 7:58pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

The ban is 11 weeks precisely because it is Dylan Hartley. He would have gotten 50% off, as seems to be the norm these days, if he had a clean record. So it would have been a more reasonable 6 weeks. Its his own fault.

He would still have been out of the Lions tour.

rrpc · 27-05-2013 8:06pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

The ban is 11 weeks precisely because it is Dylan Hartley. He would have gotten 50% off, as seems to be the norm these days, if he had a clean record. So it would have been a more reasonable 6 weeks. Its his own fault.

Delon Armitage got 8 weeks for abusing an anti-doping officer. He got a reduction of 4 (from an initial 12) for a subsequent apology and contrition but a previous red card stood against him.

There's very little abuse of match officials and it needs to stay that way.

Grandpa Hassan · 27-05-2013 8:23pm

First Up wrote: »

So now we have "Dylan, the troubled soul" do we?
Fair enough, but he is still required to play by the rules and he hasn't been very good at doing that.

You're being a little disingenuous in suggesting that we are giving him a get out of jail card as he is a 'troubled soul'. But the fact is that he has a certain psychological make-up that turns him from a perfectly personable individual off the pitch to a loose cannon when the pressure is on. He's been working with a psychologist for a while and I genuinely thought that he'd improved. But after this weekend I wonder whether he ever will. As, I'm sure, is Stuart Lancaster

H_S · 27-05-2013 8:31pm

Keeping the player out if this credit must go to Wayne Barnes. It was a tough call that could have seen him receive a serious backlash but he still made it. It's this authority that separates Rugby from other sports. If other sports associations were as tough on indiscipline it would be a benefit to these respective sports. When you look at soccer and the length of sime suspensions for more serious items such as racial abuse it's comical. Again this is just my opinion

First Up · 27-05-2013 8:36pm

I wish him well in his battle with his demons but I stop short of "giving him a break" over it. The game is tough enough without "loose cannons" indulging their tempers and insecurities in the name of "competitiveness".

Grandpa Hassan · 27-05-2013 8:39pm

rrpc wrote: »

Northampton generally seem to have issues with discipline, is that something you have observed or is it just bad luck?

I think when they happened to have three difficult players in the team in Hartley, Clarke and Lawes who regularly picked up bans (albeit the latter of which has improved his discipline of late), Mallinders response, in defending his players, was to build a siege mentality....Northampton against the world. As a result over three or four years the more they have felt victimized, the worse the siege mentality has become, and the worse the players have reacted. It seems almost like they were caught in a vicious circle....they became an 'angry' club.

I think it has improved of late with the absence of Clarke, the influence of a good few overseas players, and Hartley, their captain, seemingly back to playing good disciplined rugby. But every incident like this just sets them back. Will be interesting to see how they respond next year. I look forward to the first east midlands derby!

Note: As an amateur diagnosis, that may be complete BS.

shaungil · 27-05-2013 8:43pm

This isn't soccer and we don't abuse refs. Long ban given and not reduced cos of previous misdemeanours. Unfortunate timing for player but brought on himself.

sydthebeat · 27-05-2013 8:48pm

He didn't get 11 weeks because he was dylan hartley, he got 11 weeks because HE committed an offence which was seen as a mid range offence, an offence which should have actually carried a twelve weeks ban.

I have no sympathy AT ALL for hartley. His brain, his mouth! If an u7s player said that a pitch if have him off in a heartbeat.

The lions tour, and brand, will be better for his absence

rrpc · 27-05-2013 8:53pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I think when they happened to have three difficult players in the team in Hartley, Clarke and Lawes who regularly picked up bans (albeit the latter of which has improved his discipline of late), Mallinders response, in defending his players, was to build a siege mentality....Northampton against the world. As a result over three or four years the more they have felt victimized, the worse the siege mentality has become, and the worse the players have reacted. It seems almost like they were caught in a vicious circle....they became an 'angry' club.

I think it has improved of late with the absence of Clarke, the influence of a good few overseas players, and Hartley, their captain, seemingly back to playing good disciplined rugby. But every incident like this just sets them back. Will be interesting to see how they respond next year. I look forward to the first east midlands derby!

Note: As an amateur diagnosis, that may be complete BS.

Thanks. Amateur or not, it seems reasonable. It certainly seemed as though they were making progress and giving the captaincy to Hartley may well have been an attempt to thrust responsibility upon him in the hopes that it would lift him. It seemed to have worked until now...

rrpc · 27-05-2013 8:56pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

He didn't get 11 weeks because he was dylan hartley, he got 11 weeks because HE committed an offence which was seen as a mid range offence, an offence which should have actually carried a twelve weeks ban.

I have no sympathy AT ALL for hartley. His brain, his mouth! If an u7s player said that a pitch if have him off in a heartbeat.

The lions tour, and brand, will be better for his absence

Reminds me of an old joke (changed slightly for the circumstances):

Player: "Ref, what would you do if I called you a f***ing idiot?"
Ref: "I'd have to give you ten minutes in the bin for abuse of a match official"
Player: "OK, so what if I thought you were a f***ing idiot?"
Ref: "Well I couldn't do anything about that, you're free to think whatever you want"
Player: "Ref, I think you're a f***ing idiot"

First Up · 27-05-2013 9:08pm

Ashton was another part of that group before moving to Saracens.

ShatterProof · 27-05-2013 9:36pm

If Hartley was any good he'd be an all black

Foxtrol · 28-05-2013 12:31am

First Up wrote: »

He was never far from the trouble when some English players were mis-behaving at the RWC. Pretty well publicised.

He was one of several named who were playing drinking games and it's only really the Tindell incident that caused such outrage. The Irish lads were drinking in Queenstown a week or so prior to the World Cup so there but for the grace of God (or senior players like BOD who probably reigned it in while their senior players added fuel to it).

But the bigger problem would be getting on with the same players as team-mates that he spent so much time being a prick to during the year. Normal competition is fine but Hartley makes a point of being provocative and obnoxious.

Yeah because the Leinster lads will be shunning POC on the tour after what he did to Kearney. :rolleyes: Things happen on a rugby pitch and some players style is to go out of their ways to rile the opposition (Quinlan, Cullen, POM, Jennings etc) but these are put aside when you get off the pitch and especially when you've to play with them at international level, let alone the Lions.

Podge_irl · 28-05-2013 12:44am

sydthebeat wrote: »

He didn't get 11 weeks because he was dylan hartley, he got 11 weeks because HE committed an offence which was seen as a mid range offence, an offence which should have actually carried a twelve weeks ban.

Yeah, but it seems all first time offenders these days get their ban halved for looking pretty at the hearing. That was never going to happen in Hartley's case. As mentioned he, or anyone in his position, was out of the Lions tour anyway.

Foxtrol wrote: »

He was one of several named who were playing drinking games and it's only really the Tindell incident that caused such outrage. The Irish lads were drinking in Queenstown a week or so prior to the World Cup so there but for the grace of God (or senior players like BOD who probably reigned it in while their senior players added fuel to it).

Yeah because the Leinster lads will be shunning POC on the tour after what he did to Kearney. :rolleyes: Things happen on a rugby pitch and some players style is to go out of their ways to rile the opposition (Quinlan, Cullen, POM, Jennings etc) but these are put aside when you get off the pitch and especially when you've to play with them at international level, let alone the Lions.

I imagine it wasn't so much the Irish being reigned in as it was the Irish press being out drinking with them and generally not giving a **** what the players got up to in their free time.

locum-motion · 28-05-2013 12:57am

Small thing, lads, and I apologise for coming across as a grammar nazi, but this is one that's getting far too common and it gets on my tits.

The phrase is "rein in". A "rein" is a leather strap used to control a horse.
A "reign" is the period of time for which a monarch rules.

Foxtrol · 28-05-2013 1:45am

locum-motion wrote: »

Small thing, lads, and I apologise for coming across as a grammar nazi, but this is one that's getting far too common and it gets on my tits.

The phrase is "rein in". A "rein" is a leather strap used to control a horse.
A "reign" is the period of time for which a monarch rules.

Apology accepted.

First Up · 28-05-2013 7:27am

Foxtrol wrote: »

He was one of several named who were playing drinking games and it's only really the Tindell incident that caused such outrage. The Irish lads were drinking in Queenstown a week or so prior to the World Cup so there but for the grace of God (or senior players like BOD who probably reigned it in while their senior players added fuel to it).

Yeah because the Leinster lads will be shunning POC on the tour after what he did to Kearney. :rolleyes: Things happen on a rugby pitch and some players style is to go out of their ways to rile the opposition (Quinlan, Cullen, POM, Jennings etc) but these are put aside when you get off the pitch and especially when you've to play with them at international level, let alone the Lions.

s
There was also the hotel waitress. I think Hartley is in a different category in terms of his style but that is just my opinion.

JustinDee · 28-05-2013 8:13am

Foxtrol wrote: »

He was one of several named who were playing drinking games and it's only really the Tindell incident that caused such outrage. The Irish lads were drinking in Queenstown a week or so prior to the World Cup so there but for the grace of God (or senior players like BOD who probably reigned it in while their senior players added fuel to it)

The Irish squad know know how to behave when out. You have to be able to go out and let the hair down when in a tour situation. England's players took it too far in NZ and their management couldn't cope.

totallegend · 28-05-2013 8:27am

JustinDee wrote: »

The Irish squad know know how to behave when out. You have to be able to go out and let the hair down when in a tour situation. England's players took it too far in NZ and their management couldn't cope.

Either that, or it's the fact that Britain has a much more 'tabloid' media culture and the papers there were only delighted to get their hands on pictures of the England team boozing it up, whereas here, no-one would care.

I don't think the England team are any better or worse than the Irish guys, based on my own experience of meeting players letting their hair down.

JustinDee · 28-05-2013 8:43am

totallegend wrote: »

Either that, or it's the fact that Britain has a much more 'tabloid' media culture and the papers there were only delighted to get their hands on pictures of the England team boozing it up, whereas here, no-one would care.

I don't think the England team are any better or worse than the Irish guys, based on my own experience of meeting players letting their hair down.

Big difference in squad environments, that's all. Not so much now under Stuart Lancaster's management. Thats in my experience at least. Their media manager really struggled too (he's now moved on).
Some over-excited poster here was moaning at the time that the players were for a second time (*gasp*) in the build-up week. They simply went to a restaurant. Being cooked up in a hotel resort is not condusive to a good squad mindset.

By the way, tabloids (red tops and Daily Mail) account for just around 65% of national newspaper sales in Ireland. An abundance of tabloid culture here.

My tuppence worth anyway.

First Up · 28-05-2013 9:00am

totallegend wrote: »

I don't think the England team are any better or worse than the Irish guys, based on my own experience of meeting players letting their hair down.

Better now under Lancaster but Martin Johnson managed in the same way as he captained - "we are the best", "get out of our way" and "know your place".

That showed itself on and off the pitch and Hartley always seemed to embrace it with more enthusiasm than most.

When the Irish boys let their hair down in NZ, they not only brought the media with them but also charmed everyone else in the place. England got involved in dwarf throwing and humiliating waitresses. 90% of the behaviour of the two squads was probably the same. It was the other 10% that did for them,

mfceiling · 28-05-2013 9:08am

To be honest I started this thread as a bit of tongue in cheek banter at Hartley but obviously some are taking it a bit further than I thought.

My own 2 cents is that he will never get the benefit of the doubt because of his chequered past. For instance - if no one here watched the game beforehand except me and I posted that a player got sent off in the game for using foul/abusive language to the ref then I bet at least 80-90% of posters would guess it was Hartley.

Same as the HEC final....if I told you all that one player would score a try but make a dick out of himself when doing it, most posters would guess Armitage.

It's your job as a full time professional rugby player to curb your instincts to an extent and if you can't do that then you will be punished. My wife works with a young fellow who swears like a docker...last month he was given a warning from management about his colourful language....3 boardroom meetings later and he hasn't uttered a profanity since. If your behaviour is a threat to your job then you need to change.

totallegend · 28-05-2013 9:09am

JustinDee wrote: »

Big difference in squad environments, that's all. Not so much now under Stuart Lancaster's management. Thats in my experience at least. Their media manager really struggled too (he's now moved on).
Some over-excited poster here was moaning at the time that the players were for a second time (*gasp*) in the build-up week. They simply went to a restaurant. Being cooked up in a hotel resort is not condusive to a good squad mindset.

I'm not saying the Irish lads overdid it in New Zealand (or anywhere) and I think Ireland learned the hard way the risks involved in cosseting your players away and letting cabin fever set in (france 2007). Players need to blow off steam, we all accept that.

I'm just saying that the English players' activities were blown out of proportion and were no worse than what I've seen with my own eyes the Irish team doing; if Mike Tindall wasn't married to a member of the Royal Family, none of it would have made the news.

JustinDee wrote: »

By the way, tabloids (red tops and Daily Mail) account for just around 65% of national newspaper sales in Ireland. An abundance of tabloid culture here.

That's sales of tabloid newspapers; we don't get the same level of "papping" or "stings" that you see in the UK which is what I mean by tabloid culture.

jacothelad · 28-05-2013 9:22am

Bridge93 wrote: »

I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.

If I recall correctly, Quinny wasn't banned for eye gouging but for contact 'with the eye area' which was clearly seen on camera. Not Leo's eyes but just below on his bake.

Hartley has suffered a very severe career thump. Guilty or not it is difficult for me not to feel sympathy for him in some small regard.

28-05-2013 9:42am

I engage in full support of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude on show here.

Hartley is a fine player, but exactly the kind of player that the sport does not need. Talented enough to make headlines through his ability, but almost determined to make headlines through his lack of a brain.

As a sport that isn't that far removed in intensity from many bloodsports, respect for the rules and the officials is absolutely key. Any removal of that whatsoever needs to be punished accordingly.

Well played Barnes, and well played the RFU.

Hartley, this is effectively last chance saloon for you. Learn from it, or be prepared to spend up to a third of your remaining career unavailable for selection.

seanm92 · 28-05-2013 11:27am

ShatterProof wrote: »

If Hartley was any good he'd be an all black

And if Strauss was any good he'd be a Springbok by your logic, grow up, the bias here is ridiculous, regardless of his disciplinary record, Hartley can still be an excellent player, TBH I would have had him ahead of Best who has had a woeful international season

totallegend · 28-05-2013 11:41am

seanm92 wrote: »

And if Strauss was any good he'd be a Springbok by your logic, grow up, the bias here is ridiculous, regardless of his disciplinary record, Hartley can still be an excellent player, TBH I would have had him ahead of Best who has had a woeful international season

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Tox56 · 28-05-2013 11:42am

seanm92 wrote: »

And if Strauss was any good he'd be a Springbok by your logic, grow up, the bias here is ridiculous, regardless of his disciplinary record, Hartley can still be an excellent player, TBH I would have had him ahead of Best who has had a woeful international season

The Dylan Hartley who was 2nd choice in his own country behind a converted centre??

seanm92 · 28-05-2013 11:50am

Tox56 wrote: »

The Dylan Hartley who was 2nd choice in his own country behind a converted centre??

Behind a converted centre who will most likely start in the test games for the lions and who was the player of the year in the Aviva premiership

irishbucsfan · 28-05-2013 12:05pm

Tox56 wrote: »

The Dylan Hartley who was 2nd choice in his own country behind a converted centre??

2nd choice behind one of the form hookers in Europe to be fair.

Tox56 · 28-05-2013 12:19pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

2nd choice behind one of the form hookers in Europe to be fair.

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that Youngs's lineout stats were worse than Best's, and I really wouldn't be surprised if that's true. Had a real horror show against us in the Aviva. He's a fine player but Best would at the very least be in the England 23 if he was English for sure.

28-05-2013 12:24pm

6Nations
Hartley - 90% (19/21)
Best - 81% (55/68)

Nobody threw more succesful lineouts than Rory. (percentages might be a little different to my first post, so have edited this)

totallegend · 28-05-2013 12:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

6Nations
Hartley - 90% (19/21)
Best - 81% (55/68)

Nobody threw more succesful lineouts than Rory. (percentages might be a little different to my first post, so have edited this)

I think it was that the lineout malfunctioned at key times that has exercised opinion against Best. I think it's all way overblown and had as much to with the jumpers and calls as the throwing, so I think Best is in with a great shout of test caps.

irishbucsfan · 28-05-2013 12:39pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere that Youngs's lineout stats were worse than Best's, and I really wouldn't be surprised if that's true. Had a real horror show against us in the Aviva. He's a fine player but Best would at the very least be in the England 23 if he was English for sure.

Ah yeah Best is great. I'm not talking about him. You were making it out that not being able to start ahead of Youngs was shameful because he's a converted center! Strauss is a converted 7 let's not forget!

Best is good enough to play in the Lions tests and he always was. Hartley and Youngs are also. And Hibbard as well, I forget him very easilly. Lot's of strong competition there.

Tox56 · 28-05-2013 12:43pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah yeah Best is great. I'm not talking about him. You were making it out that not being able to start ahead of Youngs was shameful because he's a converted center! Strauss is a converted 7 let's not forget!

Best is good enough to play in the Lions tests and he always was. Hartley and Youngs are also. And Hibbard as well, I forget him very easilly. Lot's of strong competition there.

Wasn't suggesting it was shameful at all, just emphasising that Hartley isn't even first choice in his own country and I wouldn't have him ahead of Best at all, and that it's not like it's Sean Fitzpatrick or someone keeping Hartley out of the team.

prospect · 28-05-2013 1:38pm

I have little or no sympathy for Hartley.

Lets clarify one matter that has been said a lot here, he did not 'Lose' his spot on the team, he threw it away.

The guy has had numerous warnings, sin binnings, red cards, citings and bans, and he still has not learned to control himself.

If it was a once off incident that was out of character, that cost him his spot, then I would have sympathy for him.
But given the history of the guy and his obvious lack of respect for other players and the referees/officials, I'm not sorry for him at all.

The Dylan Hartley thread [MOD WARNING POST #1]

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