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The Dylan Hartley thread [MOD WARNING POST #1]

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    I suppose at the end of the day Hartley is possibly the best in terms of his darts. His throws have a lovely fizz on them and plenty of air time. So if anything, he'd probably travel as the 'specialist' thrower. If the darts were looking shakey he'd probably be on the bench ready to come on and steady it. Best offers far more around the park though, and so long as the entire line out machine runs smoothly he'll be fine.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,016 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Buer wrote: »
    I'm not close to a Hartley fan but I don't understand the celebrating of his demise which seems to be more prevalent than celebrating Best's success. Crass and unnecessarily lowering what is a great achievement.

    I am sick of officials being abused. The last few years it has been getting worse and worse. If any player gets away with it at the top level you can multiply it by 50 what happens at lower levels.

    Rugby is a very challenging, intense, dangerous sport and it doesn't need the crap that happen in soccer. Sometimes calls are marginal and people have to get on with it. Just refs have to get on with it if they get a bad assessment.

    Our top officials set a precedent and thankfully we had an elite ref who was brave enough to make a tough decision.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    First Up wrote: »
    Best in my view will be a better tourist ...
    Without a shadow of a doubt IMHO
    First Up wrote: »
    ... but undoubtedly his tendency to blow lineout throws at critical moments counted against him.
    Yes but at least he's more likely to be still on the field to fulfill his other duties.

    Most of all I feel the accolade is rightly due the man, his club and his country


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    .ak wrote: »
    I suppose at the end of the day Hartley is possibly the best in terms of his darts. His throws have a lovely fizz on them and plenty of air time. So if anything, he'd probably travel as the 'specialist' thrower. If the darts were looking shakey he'd probably be on the bench ready to come on and steady it. Best offers far more around the park though, and so long as the entire line out machine runs smoothly he'll be fine.

    In what areas does Best offer far more than Hartley around the park? I don't think thats true tbh, Hartley does tons of work in open play. He's a massive part of the way that Northampton pack play (when hes not banned!)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    In what areas does Best offer far more than Hartley around the park? I don't think thats true tbh, Hartley does tons of work in open play. He's a massive part of the way that Northampton pack play (when hes not banned!)

    I don't think there is much between them on that score.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    .ak wrote: »
    Well actually there's what, 33, 34 weeks in a season? So it's actually more than a 6th of his playing time spent suspended.

    If we then consider 8 yellow cards accumulated to equal another week of suspension (i.e. he sat out an entire match worth of game time), I'd reckon it'd be closer to a season and a half of the last 6 that his discipline issues have had him off the playing field.

    Some time soon Northampton are just going to give up on him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    In what areas does Best offer far more than Hartley around the park? I don't think thats true tbh, Hartley does tons of work in open play. He's a massive part of the way that Northampton pack play (when hes not banned!)

    I feel he's a better carrier of the ball. I don't have his stats on hand but he seems to be a heavier lad, he takes ball into contact very effectively. He knocked Strauss on his arse on saturday (although Strauss put himself in an awkward position), he's a knack for doing that. He's also very dynamic off the set piece, how many times have we seen him score tries off set pieces or have defensive set pieces turning?

    I'm not trying to belittle Hartley here, I just think both players have their pros and cons. Hartley's probably the better tight hooker; better in the scrums, mauls and has better darts, but I think Best is the better in the loose and is more explosive carrier and a mean poacher.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    .ak wrote: »
    I feel he's a better carrier of the ball. I don't have his stats on hand but he seems to be a heavier lad, he takes ball into contact very effectively. He knocked Strauss on his arse on saturday (although Strauss put himself in an awkward position), he's a knack for doing that. He's also very dynamic off the set piece, how many times have we seen him score tries off set pieces or have defensive set pieces turning?

    I'm not trying to belittle Hartley here, I just think both players have their pros and cons. Hartley's probably the better tight hooker; better in the scrums, mauls and has better darts, but I think Best is the better in the loose and is more explosive carrier and a mean poacher.

    Well, it is academic now. The interesting bit will be to see if Best's throwing improves on the tour. Many players have benefited from the specialist expertise available on Lions tours to sort out weaknesses. (In the case of Willie Duggan, they got him fit for the first time in his life.) It should be less of an issue in the professional era but 6 weeks working with the best (pun intended) could make a difference.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I am sick of officials being abused. The last few years it has been getting worse and worse. If any player gets away with it at the top level you can multiply it by 50 what happens at lower levels.

    Rugby is a very challenging, intense, dangerous sport and it doesn't need the crap that happen in soccer. Sometimes calls are marginal and people have to get on with it. Just refs have to get on with it if they get a bad assessment.

    Our top officials set a precedent and thankfully we had an elite ref who was brave enough to make a tough decision.

    I fully agree with you. This thread though, hasn't been about that at all. I believe you're the only one, Tim (I could be wrong), that has specifically mentioned the incident and Barnes being abused/carding him at all. This thread has been far more about opportunistic spite.

    Absolutely correct call and Hartley has an atrocious record. This has put down a marker for players and their behaviour in a high profile incident. This will make it easier and more accepted for referees and governing bodies to administer disciplinary action for similar occurrences.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,507 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You could say Hartley has been unlucky here, players utter oaths at each other, the officials, at God himself all throughout matches, mostly under their breath and in frustration. It wouldnt be natural if guys mentally wound up for big games didnt or couldnt vent. From the replay its clear whatever he is saying he is looking at no one in particular and is backing out of the pack to regroup and reset. It might be unfortunate timing for him that the Parisse red card earlier this season has highlighted the zero tolerance for such offences.

    However Hartley has made his bed over the years with a cynical and thuggish attitude, his demeanour is nasty and it has been experienced by many on the pitch at this stage. So, like it or not other players and officials take one look and if its him with even a foot wrong, he looses the benefit of the doubt. You could call it prejudice, but his disciplinary record is well documented. He has had shorter bans for greater offences, but karma has caught up with him at this stage, and he is being made an example of. He takes a risk appealing the ban, he could have the deducted week reinstated or worse, but at this stage he has nothing left to loose.

    In any case, Gatland's poor call has been corrected by fate, and I would still be saying that if it was another English or Scottish hooker that had lost out, but it so happens its Best, and I hope he has a brilliant tour, there are few better pro's in the Irish game


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Larbre34 wrote: »

    In any case, Gatland's poor call has been corrected by fate, and I would still be saying that if it was another English or Scottish hooker that had lost out, but it so happens its Best, and I hope he has a brilliant tour, there are few better pro's in the Irish game

    None of us are wholly objective on this. I wouldn't have picked Hartley but mainly because I think he would cause trouble and tensions in the squad. But I can see why he was picked ahead of Best.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 650 ✭✭✭Gordon Gecko


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    ???????????

    I don't understand your logic here

    I was referencing his behaviour when Ireland won the Churchill cup duh


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,507 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    First Up wrote: »
    None of us are wholly objective on this. I wouldn't have picked Hartley but mainly because I think he would cause trouble and tensions in the squad. But I can see why he was picked ahead of Best.

    Agreed, on the form of this season alone, Hartley shades it, but Best's few bad games were an anomoly and symptomatic of stresses in the squad. From the start Gatland should have been concious of potential trouble in a squad, its a tough enough thing to take a caravan of diverse guys on the road for 6 weeks and keep harmony and motivation. I know they are all seasoned pros, but that didnt stop Martin Johnson's England from acting like the Bash Street Kids on a sugar rush at the World Cup.


  • Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭Go2Guy


    There are seems to be 2 tones in this thread


    1) Hartley is an ill-disciplined professional, let's discuss
    and
    2) He behaved terribly but was punished thus removing any right we have to discuss.


    I believe tone 1) is NOT against the rugby ethos, and that tone 2) goes against the boards.ie ethos.
    Thanks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,374 ✭✭✭Eponymous


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    You could say Hartley has been unlucky here, players utter oaths at each other, the officials, at God himself all throughout matches, mostly under their breath and in frustration. It wouldnt be natural if guys mentally wound up for big games didnt or couldnt vent.


    He's far from unlucky. Pressure or not, he's a professional rugby player. Add in the fact that he had been spoken to by Barnes not two minutes earlier about his language when speaking to him and that it was unbecoming for the captain and that if it happened again he'd have to deal with it (or words to that effect). To then have that little outburst whether aimed at Barnes or at nobody in particular gave Barnes no option. He had to back up his words with actions. I'm no fan of Barnes (who is?), but he got that passage of play spot on imho.

    Tim Robbins has it spot on. Kids see this and think it's cool to talk back to the ref, they then copy it. A few more red cards and they'll soon learn. In all my years playing I think all I've ever said to any ref is "Thank you, Sir".

    Those gloating about it however have obviously never had their dreams and ambitions crushed. Hartley has the summer now to cogitate on what this has done for his reputation and really has nobody to blame but himself.

    Congratulations to Best though, he should never have been excluded in the first place and his dignity after the initial squad announcement was remarkable.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Just been reading the Daily Telegraph - usually the most one-eyed when it comes to England's brilliance and superiority in all things rugby. Both their articles and reader's comments are remarkably positive about Best.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,669 ✭✭✭who_me


    Credit to Barnes and the RFU for their stance on this. If we don't want abuse of the referees to become a norm, a tough stance must be taken. Given Hartley's warning a few minutes previously, he really hasn't much of an defence.

    I doubt we'd see the same standard from the IRFU, particularly with a big tour coming; and we do have some of the most "chatty" players in the game.


  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭S Barrett


    Rory Best should have been called up first day. What Hartley did on Saturday was stupid beyond belief. As a captain of Northampton he should have known better.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    who_me wrote: »
    Credit to Barnes and the RFU for their stance on this. If we don't want abuse of the referees to become a norm, a tough stance must be taken. Given Hartley's warning a few minutes previously, he really hasn't much of an defence.

    I doubt we'd see the same standard from the IRFU, particularly with a big tour coming; and we do have some of the most "chatty" players in the game.

    And they have had their problems with that - POC has got up the nose of more than one French ref in particular. But abuse and calling a ref a cheat is a different matter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭S Barrett


    First Up wrote: »
    And they have had their problems with that - POC has got up the nose of more than one French ref in particular. But abuse and calling a ref a cheat is a different matter.



    Chatting to a referee is acceptable once you dont cross the line. Hartley, in his career, has crossed every line and is now paying for it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    S Barrett wrote: »
    Chatting to a referee is acceptable once you dont cross the line. Hartley, in his career, has crossed every line and is now paying for it.

    Agreed. Maybe he will reflect on it and emerge a better, nicer person but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

    Lancaster tackled a lot of the stuff that got out of control under Martin Johnston and England were the better for that. Hartley may have a job getting back in after this. He has already effectively lost his starting position.


  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭S Barrett


    First Up wrote: »
    Agreed. Maybe he will reflect on it and emerge a better, nicer person but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

    Lancaster tackled a lot of the stuff that got out of control under Martin Johnston and England were the better for that. Hartley may have a job getting back in after this. He has already effectively lost his starting position.


    Lancaster has said that he will have to prove himself all over again. If all goes well Ireland could now have 5 starters in the pack when the first test kicks off in Brisbane .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    S Barrett wrote: »
    Lancaster has said that he will have to prove himself all over again. If all goes well Ireland could now have 5 starters in the pack when the first test kicks off in Brisbane .

    I guess that moves us on to the Lions.....


  • Administrators Posts: 54,256 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    S Barrett wrote: »
    Lancaster has said that he will have to prove himself all over again. If all goes well Ireland could now have 5 starters in the pack when the first test kicks off in Brisbane .
    Don't see a chance of this happening tbh.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    awec wrote: »
    Don't see a chance of this happening tbh.

    Nor me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,514 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    I still haven't seen any replay that shows him, only the effect of what he said. Delighted to see Best on the tour, a much better man to have travelling than Hartley.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    awec wrote: »
    Don't see a chance of this happening tbh.

    I'd say Healy, POC and Heaslip are 'probables' at this stage, but Best and O'Brien are going to struggle.


  • Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭S Barrett


    awec wrote: »
    Don't see a chance of this happening tbh.


    All I will say is watch this space.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,308 ✭✭✭✭.ak


    I'd say Healy, POC and Heaslip are 'probables' at this stage, but Best and O'Brien are going to struggle.

    The major shame here is that SOB is probably the best out of the lot this year based on international form.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    I still haven't seen any replay that shows him, only the effect of what he said. Delighted to see Best on the tour, a much better man to have travelling than Hartley.

    Check out Balls.ie. Video clip, with a panel discussion about it and replays.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,507 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Just found my own post from April 30th, he didnt even make it that far......:rolleyes:


    Just hearing the squad.

    Hartley selection is a joke. The man is everything a Lion shouldnt be. Will be banned by Game 3, so Best should keep the diary free

    Lack of a third outhalf when there are 3 specialists elsewhere is just odd. The schedule is too packed for two 10's

    Sorry for Zebo and Ross


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,730 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    firstly Best should have been on the plane from the start , but am I alone in thinking Hartley has been punished over harshly - people say things in the heat of battle , that they regret - no one was hurt , not sure how the ref performed , but i still think it was a bit harsh on him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,507 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    thebaz wrote: »
    firstly Best should have been on the plane from the start , but am I alone in thinking Hartley has been punished over harshly - people say things in the heat of battle , that they regret - no one was hurt , not sure how the ref performed , but i still think it was a bit harsh on him.

    He's got more form than Ronnie Biggs, previous episodes count hugely in disciplinary sanctions.


  • Subscribers Posts: 41,963 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    I was referencing his behaviour when Ireland won the Churchill cup duh


    If thats a troll effort its a miserable fail.

    you are somehow equating churchill cup status to lions seniority, I'm afraid your in your own there :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,935 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    People correctly mention that Best was excellent in the 6 Nations except for his l/o work yet don't bring up the fact that Youngs l/o/ stats are even poorer than Rory's. Youngs was also pure kack - again - on Saturday. I don't think Best is the only hooker who was hard done by in the Lions selection.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    thebaz wrote: »
    firstly Best should have been on the plane from the start , but am I alone in thinking Hartley has been punished over harshly - people say things in the heat of battle , that they regret - no one was hurt , not sure how the ref performed , but i still think it was a bit harsh on him.

    The way it evolved he gave Barnes no choice. He had warned him only a minute before. The minimum for the offence is 6 weeks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,170 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    First Up wrote: »
    None of us are wholly objective on this. I wouldn't have picked Hartley but mainly because I think he would cause trouble and tensions in the squad.

    Why do think he'd cause trouble and tensions in the squad?
    First Up wrote: »
    Agreed. Maybe he will reflect on it and emerge a better, nicer person but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

    You seem to think the same abrasive player on the pitch to being the same guy in the dressing room and as a person in general. I've never heard of anything negative about him off field. From personal experience I met him in Cardiff town late the night of the Heineken Cup final in 2011 when he must have been gutted and I was hammered, elated and covered in Leinster gear and he was nothing short of a gent.

    If you take some Irish players from their actions on the pitch you'd expect them to be serial cheats in their day to day life and others to be found walking the streets looking for a sniff of fight to get involved in. You have to separate this stuff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Best clip I could find



    I really feel bad for him. Such a small moment of insanity has cost him so much. Even if he did say to Youngs rather than the ref, how about not saying **** like that on the pitch whatsoever? Would save him a lot of hassle.

    On the other hand, I was not looking forward to cheering for a team with him on it at all


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
    Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
    If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
    Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
    If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.

    Not a fair comparison, BOD and POC would likely have their previous good behaviour taken into account and they would also likely not to be so stupid just a minute after being warned by the ref, both factors hugely important in deciding the length of ban.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Foxtrol wrote: »
    Why do think he'd cause trouble and tensions in the squad?



    You seem to think the same abrasive player on the pitch to being the same guy in the dressing room and as a person in general. I've never heard of anything negative about him off field. From personal experience I met him in Cardiff town late the night of the Heineken Cup final in 2011 when he must have been gutted and I was hammered, elated and covered in Leinster gear and he was nothing short of a gent.

    If you take some Irish players from their actions on the pitch you'd expect them to be serial cheats in their day to day life and others to be found walking the streets looking for a sniff of fight to get involved in. You have to separate this stuff.

    He was never far from the trouble when some English players were mis-behaving at the RWC. Pretty well publicised. But the bigger problem would be getting on with the same players as team-mates that he spent so much time being a prick to during the year. Normal competition is fine but Hartley makes a point of being provocative and obnoxious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭I am pie


    I reckon Secret Agent Barnes was sent on a secret mission to remove the Lions series of it's most controversial character. Shame for the Aussie media as he would have no doubt involved himself in something and sold a few newspapers down there.

    For me, a yellow would have been more appropriate. 10 mins in the bin, do it again and your off.

    I can't pretend I am not glad he got the red however.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,997 ✭✭✭Grimebox


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    I think 11 weeks is a bit harsh, his record obviously came into consideration. But when you think Quinlan got 12 weeks for eye gouging you do wonder about the severity.
    Those saying its not harsh have to step back from the fact its Dylan Hartley and look without bringing the player into it.
    If and this is extremely hypothetical, it had been an Irish player like POC or BOD I don't think people would be agreeing with 11 weeks.

    Its 11 weeks because it is Dylan Hartley though. If it was a more hot-headed irish player like................... no irish player is as bad as Dylan Hartley!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,018 ✭✭✭Bridge93


    Tox56 wrote: »
    Not a fair comparison, BOD and POC would likely have their previous good behaviour taken into account and they would also likely not to be so stupid just a minute after being warned by the ref, both factors hugely important in deciding the length of ban.

    well how about somebody attacking somebody else's eyes only getting a week more?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    Well some people have got a lot more. Hartley got 26 weeks when he did it. I guess each case is assessed individually.
    In this case they were just making a point; anything more than two weeks and he was off the Lions anyway. The rest as the French put it, is "to encourage the others". They don't like refs being abused or called cheats.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Steve Perchance


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    well how about somebody attacking somebody else's eyes only getting a week more?

    In fairness, thats the minimum penalty for contact with the eye area - proper eye gouging has seen bans a magnitude greater - didnt attoub get 70 weeks?

    The penalties for ref abuse are deliberately harsh, its the point. If a yellow card or slap on the wrists was the only sanction, it'd happen a hell of a lot more.

    Sure, there's less damage to any individual, but ref abuse is an attack on the game. The penalties were set to reflect that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Schorpio




    Found a perfect version up on youtube if anybody is still looking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,577 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    I would have preferred a yellow card for Hartley although I don't want to see a rugby ending up with a soccer circus of ref abuse every time a decison goes the 'wrong' way.

    Of the three amigos mentioned, Ashton is a bit of an eejit, Hartley a brute but Delon is something more diabolical. When he was laughing at James, I was convinced he was taunting ME for some reason.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Swiwi


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    I would have preferred a yellow card for Hartley although I don't want to see a rugby ending up with a soccer circus of ref abuse every time a decison goes the 'wrong' way.

    Of the three amigos mentioned, Ashton is a bit of an eejit, Hartley a brute but Delon is something more diabolical. When he was laughing at James, I was convinced he was taunting ME for some reason.

    Rugby (generally) has
    • No diving/feigning injury
    • No fans assaulting each other
    • No crowding round the ref

    Long may it stay that way!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,591 ✭✭✭✭Aidric


    Disgusting thread.


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