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The Dylan Hartley thread [MOD WARNING POST #1]

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245

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    #32
    Tomtom364
    Registered Users Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭Tomtom364


    Bridge93 wrote: »
    Barnes used the word can't which with 82,000 in Twickenham can easily be mistaken for can especially with barnes' English accent. Needed to be more clear

    This is beside the point because he locked it out on the full anyway didn't he?

    Looked to attempt to bounce it out but went out on the full.


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    #33
    Gordon Gecko
    Registered Users Posts: 650 ✭✭✭Gordon Gecko


    I wonder if the Lions win the series will Rory Best insist on lifting the trophy as he is a senior player to Warburton?


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    #34
    Exclamation Marc
    Registered Users Posts: 11,407 ✭✭✭✭Exclamation Marc


    The man has had 47 weeks worth of suspensions in the last six years.

    It's utterly ridiculous and he's a complete liability.

    Good riddance, glad the door is open for Best now.


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    #35
    ConFurioso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 378 ✭✭ConFurioso


    Hartley may be an embarrassment to the ethos of rugby, but this thread is no better.

    He was punished. An excellent benchmark has been set. Let's move on.


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    #36
    totallegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,234 ✭✭✭totallegend


    ConFurioso wrote: »
    Hartley may be an embarrassment to the ethos of rugby, but this thread is no better.

    He was punished. An excellent benchmark has been set. Let's move on.

    The tone of some of the posts isn't great but people are going to want to discuss this incident. I'd prefer that it be limited to its own thread rather than stinking up the Lions thread, as was happening yesterday.


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    #37
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,115 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Gordon Gecko wrote: »
    I wonder if the Lions win the series will Rory Best insist on lifting the trophy as he is a senior player to Warburton?

    ???????????

    I don't understand your logic here


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    #38
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Gordon Gecko wrote: »
    I wonder if the Lions win the series will Rory Best insist on lifting the trophy as he is a senior player to Warburton?

    ???
    The Lions haven't won anything nor is it nailed on that they will.


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    #39
    Leslie91
    Registered Users Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Leslie91


    Gordon Gecko wrote: »
    I wonder if the Lions win the series will Rory Best insist on lifting the trophy as he is a senior player to Warburton?

    Huh?... wouldn't BOD and POC be more senior also if we are to follow that logic?


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    #40
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Gordon Gecko wrote: »
    I wonder if the Lions win the series will Rory Best insist on lifting the trophy as he is a senior player to Warburton?

    No, it'll be John Terry.


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    #41
    Leslie91
    Registered Users Posts: 4,017 ✭✭✭Leslie91


    +1 for being delighted that in a roundabout way Justice has been done. Whatever your thoughts are about Hartley/decision of the RFU you can't dispute how great it is that a man so deserving in Best is now going to Oz. He's been everything that Hartley has not been on and off a rugby pitch. Fantastic servant to the game in this country, great leader. I'm delighted for him. Look forward to seeing him winning the test spot now a bit like Paul Wallace did all those years ago.

    And for the record I'm not an Ulsterman, I'm a Leinster man who appreciates the good in all players no matter where they come from.


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    #42
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Leslie91 wrote: »
    +1 for being delighted that in a roundabout way Justice has been done. Whatever your thoughts are about Hartley/decision of the RFU you can't dispute how great it is that a man so deserving in Best is now going to Oz. He's been everything that Hartley has not been on and off a rugby pitch. Fantastic servant to the game in this country, great leader. I'm delighted for him. Look forward to seeing him winning the test spot now a bit like Paul Wallace did all those years ago.

    And for the record I'm not an Ulsterman, I'm a Leinster man who appreciates the good in all players no matter where they come from.

    Well played Wayne Barnes. There is a huge amount of back chat and slagging on the touchlines going in various levels of rugby and when players / fans see it been dealt with severely at the highest levels they know it will happen to them if they do it.

    Very important Rugby maintains its ethos. You did the game a great service.


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    #43
    Garseys
    Registered Users Posts: 1,448 ✭✭✭Garseys


    FireballPitcher wrote: »
    The man has had 47 weeks worth of suspensions in the last six years.

    It's utterly ridiculous and he's a complete liability.

    Good riddance, glad the door is open for Best now.

    :eek: Thats nearly a year of suspensions out of 6 Years.


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    #44
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Garseys wrote: »
    :eek: Thats nearly a year of suspensions out of 6 Years.

    Well actually there's what, 33, 34 weeks in a season? So it's actually more than a 6th of his playing time spent suspended.


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    #45
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    totallegend wrote: »
    The tone of some of the posts isn't great but people are going to want to discuss this incident. I'd prefer that it be limited to its own thread rather than stinking up the Lions thread, as was happening yesterday.

    This. I'm not a fan of the OP to be frank, but it doesn't break any specific rules of the charter, and I'd rather have all of this discussed in one thread rather than adding noise to a super thread elsewhere.


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    #46
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    First Up wrote: »
    Speaking as someone who served a one month ban in here for sticking up for O'Connell I have to disagree with that!

    Yes, but let's not get into the POC incident again.

    On that note, I've added a note to the OP. I'd appreciate it if you all read it before posting further.


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    #47
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    .ak wrote: »
    Well actually there's what, 33, 34 weeks in a season? So it's actually more than a 6th of his playing time spent suspended.
    With such a poor disciplinary record, that would indicate statistically he'd be available to play half a test-match on the tour. Very poor selection decision initially, corrected by the fairness factor and the man's own major flaw.

    I'd like to hear a discussion as to how he was a leading contender from the start. The Lions Tour is seen as a reward for leading players. Was he chosen as the leading thug?


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    #48
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    The ironic part was Gatty said he wouldn't take anyone that was a liability....


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    #49
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I'm not close to a Hartley fan but I don't understand the celebrating of his demise which seems to be more prevalent than celebrating Best's success. Crass and unnecessarily lowering what is a great achievement.


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    #50
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    FireballPitcher wrote: »
    The man has had 47 weeks worth of suspensions in the last six years
    Really??
    That's some record.


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    #51
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    mathepac wrote: »
    With such a poor disciplinary record, that would indicate statistically he'd be available to play half a test-match on the tour. Very poor selection decision initially, corrected by the fairness factor and the man's own major flaw.

    I'd like to hear a discussion as to how he was a leading contender from the start. The Lions Tour is seen as a reward for leading players. Was he chosen as the leading thug?

    It is reported that the Best/Hartley choice was the closest of all in the original selection. They are pretty even in terms of open play and in the tight. Best in my view will be a better tourist but undoubtedly his tendency to blow lineout throws at critical moments counted against him.


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    #52
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    I suppose at the end of the day Hartley is possibly the best in terms of his darts. His throws have a lovely fizz on them and plenty of air time. So if anything, he'd probably travel as the 'specialist' thrower. If the darts were looking shakey he'd probably be on the bench ready to come on and steady it. Best offers far more around the park though, and so long as the entire line out machine runs smoothly he'll be fine.


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    #53
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,964 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Buer wrote: »
    I'm not close to a Hartley fan but I don't understand the celebrating of his demise which seems to be more prevalent than celebrating Best's success. Crass and unnecessarily lowering what is a great achievement.

    I am sick of officials being abused. The last few years it has been getting worse and worse. If any player gets away with it at the top level you can multiply it by 50 what happens at lower levels.

    Rugby is a very challenging, intense, dangerous sport and it doesn't need the crap that happen in soccer. Sometimes calls are marginal and people have to get on with it. Just refs have to get on with it if they get a bad assessment.

    Our top officials set a precedent and thankfully we had an elite ref who was brave enough to make a tough decision.


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    #54
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    First Up wrote: »
    Best in my view will be a better tourist ...
    Without a shadow of a doubt IMHO
    First Up wrote: »
    ... but undoubtedly his tendency to blow lineout throws at critical moments counted against him.
    Yes but at least he's more likely to be still on the field to fulfill his other duties.

    Most of all I feel the accolade is rightly due the man, his club and his country


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    #55
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    .ak wrote: »
    I suppose at the end of the day Hartley is possibly the best in terms of his darts. His throws have a lovely fizz on them and plenty of air time. So if anything, he'd probably travel as the 'specialist' thrower. If the darts were looking shakey he'd probably be on the bench ready to come on and steady it. Best offers far more around the park though, and so long as the entire line out machine runs smoothly he'll be fine.

    In what areas does Best offer far more than Hartley around the park? I don't think thats true tbh, Hartley does tons of work in open play. He's a massive part of the way that Northampton pack play (when hes not banned!)


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    #56
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    In what areas does Best offer far more than Hartley around the park? I don't think thats true tbh, Hartley does tons of work in open play. He's a massive part of the way that Northampton pack play (when hes not banned!)

    I don't think there is much between them on that score.


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    #57
    tolosenc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    .ak wrote: »
    Well actually there's what, 33, 34 weeks in a season? So it's actually more than a 6th of his playing time spent suspended.

    If we then consider 8 yellow cards accumulated to equal another week of suspension (i.e. he sat out an entire match worth of game time), I'd reckon it'd be closer to a season and a half of the last 6 that his discipline issues have had him off the playing field.

    Some time soon Northampton are just going to give up on him.


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    #58
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    In what areas does Best offer far more than Hartley around the park? I don't think thats true tbh, Hartley does tons of work in open play. He's a massive part of the way that Northampton pack play (when hes not banned!)

    I feel he's a better carrier of the ball. I don't have his stats on hand but he seems to be a heavier lad, he takes ball into contact very effectively. He knocked Strauss on his arse on saturday (although Strauss put himself in an awkward position), he's a knack for doing that. He's also very dynamic off the set piece, how many times have we seen him score tries off set pieces or have defensive set pieces turning?

    I'm not trying to belittle Hartley here, I just think both players have their pros and cons. Hartley's probably the better tight hooker; better in the scrums, mauls and has better darts, but I think Best is the better in the loose and is more explosive carrier and a mean poacher.


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    #59
    First Up
    Registered Users Posts: 14,822 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    .ak wrote: »
    I feel he's a better carrier of the ball. I don't have his stats on hand but he seems to be a heavier lad, he takes ball into contact very effectively. He knocked Strauss on his arse on saturday (although Strauss put himself in an awkward position), he's a knack for doing that. He's also very dynamic off the set piece, how many times have we seen him score tries off set pieces or have defensive set pieces turning?

    I'm not trying to belittle Hartley here, I just think both players have their pros and cons. Hartley's probably the better tight hooker; better in the scrums, mauls and has better darts, but I think Best is the better in the loose and is more explosive carrier and a mean poacher.

    Well, it is academic now. The interesting bit will be to see if Best's throwing improves on the tour. Many players have benefited from the specialist expertise available on Lions tours to sort out weaknesses. (In the case of Willie Duggan, they got him fit for the first time in his life.) It should be less of an issue in the professional era but 6 weeks working with the best (pun intended) could make a difference.


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    #60
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,189 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I am sick of officials being abused. The last few years it has been getting worse and worse. If any player gets away with it at the top level you can multiply it by 50 what happens at lower levels.

    Rugby is a very challenging, intense, dangerous sport and it doesn't need the crap that happen in soccer. Sometimes calls are marginal and people have to get on with it. Just refs have to get on with it if they get a bad assessment.

    Our top officials set a precedent and thankfully we had an elite ref who was brave enough to make a tough decision.

    I fully agree with you. This thread though, hasn't been about that at all. I believe you're the only one, Tim (I could be wrong), that has specifically mentioned the incident and Barnes being abused/carding him at all. This thread has been far more about opportunistic spite.

    Absolutely correct call and Hartley has an atrocious record. This has put down a marker for players and their behaviour in a high profile incident. This will make it easier and more accepted for referees and governing bodies to administer disciplinary action for similar occurrences.


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    #61
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,854 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    You could say Hartley has been unlucky here, players utter oaths at each other, the officials, at God himself all throughout matches, mostly under their breath and in frustration. It wouldnt be natural if guys mentally wound up for big games didnt or couldnt vent. From the replay its clear whatever he is saying he is looking at no one in particular and is backing out of the pack to regroup and reset. It might be unfortunate timing for him that the Parisse red card earlier this season has highlighted the zero tolerance for such offences.

    However Hartley has made his bed over the years with a cynical and thuggish attitude, his demeanour is nasty and it has been experienced by many on the pitch at this stage. So, like it or not other players and officials take one look and if its him with even a foot wrong, he looses the benefit of the doubt. You could call it prejudice, but his disciplinary record is well documented. He has had shorter bans for greater offences, but karma has caught up with him at this stage, and he is being made an example of. He takes a risk appealing the ban, he could have the deducted week reinstated or worse, but at this stage he has nothing left to loose.

    In any case, Gatland's poor call has been corrected by fate, and I would still be saying that if it was another English or Scottish hooker that had lost out, but it so happens its Best, and I hope he has a brilliant tour, there are few better pro's in the Irish game


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