French Open 2013

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Giruilla wrote: »

Immediately thought/hoped those were anti-doping protesters at first.

Nadal is a laughable at this stage.

Look, you're entitled to your thoughts and opinions on these matters but unless there's something concrete to discuss I suggest you keep them to yourself.

Giruilla

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Look, you're entitled to your thoughts and opinions on these matters but unless there's something concrete to discuss I suggest you keep them to yourself.

I'm just laughing at how nadal is held in such high esteem. I don't have anything concrete.. I'm just not liking what I'm seeing.

walshb

Not sure what all this doping talk is about? Really, apart from fitness what would/have drugs done for Nadal? And, it's not like he's unbeatable. Clay is his specialty. Ridiculous talk.

walshb

Giruilla wrote: »

I'm just laughing at how nadal is held in such high esteem. I don't have anything concrete.. I'm just not liking what I'm seeing.

What exactly are you seeing that you don't like? An elaboration wouldn't go astray.

pconn062

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Look, you're entitled to your thoughts and opinions on these matters but unless there's something concrete to discuss I suggest you keep them to yourself.

I totally agree that unspeculated discussion about doping should not be tolerated, but I think one of the issues with doping in tennis is that it is never discussed like it is in other sports, thus seems to be ignored like it is not an issue. I think the Nadal issue is an interesting one, the guy came back from a long layoff and managed to basically destroy everyone around him in the most amazing comeback, something that we simply don't see happening. I am not saying that this is because Nadal is doping but such an unusual situation deserves to be discussed in the interest of the sport. Nadal (and others, I can think of several female players that have made huge and almost unbelievable leaps up the rankings in the last two years) should be scrutinised, if he has nothing to hide then he has nothing to worry about, but for the interest of the sport and it's fans, the questions should be asked.

pconn062

walshb wrote: »

Not sure what all this doping talk is about? Really, apart from fitness what would/have drugs done for Nadal? And, it's not like he's unbeatable. Clay is his specialty. Ridiculous talk.

PED's aid recovery, everyone knows that. Not saying it is relevant to Nadal but that is one of the main benefits of steroids to any athlete.

walshb

pconn062 wrote: »

PED's aid recovery, everyone knows that. Not saying it is relevant to Nadal but that is one of the main benefits of steroids to any athlete.

I know this, but one could say that ALL the players are on it if that's all it's doing for them. Like I said to the the poster, Nadal is not unbeatable. He's not even world number 1. Why is he being singled out? I can't see anything superhuman about the guy. Sure, compared to me he's superhuman, but compared to Murray and Fed and Novak, and some others he's just another great tennis player.

BTW, Nadal did not destroy everyone. He has lost some matches since his comeback, and Novak really should have won the semi. So, what does this say about Novak?

What questions should be asked? Are you doping? Surely tennis' authorities test their players? That is it. Is Nadal not subject to the same tests as others?

Finally, what is this unusual situation you speak of? He's a phenomenal player. Yes, had his injuries, but he doesn't necessarily become a less phenomenal player just because of a layoff.

pconn062

Tennis doping testing is notoriously lax compared to other sports and the issue is not discussed as it it in other sports (such as cycling and athletics). This issue is not confined to tennis but also in rugby, soccer and other sports. I singled out Nadal as another poster mentioned him specifically in another post but I think questions need to be asked of other players as well. But I thought this comeback was particularly amazing, to be out of match practice for so long and then to come back and destroy everyone the way he did (I don't know why you say Novak should have won the semi's, I thought Nadal was the better player). This is not just coming from me, all the Eurosport pundits and commentators were saying that it has to be the most amazing unbelievable comeback ever seen. I'm not saying Nadal is doping, but I think something needs to be down about the the doping testing situation in tennis.

RosyLily

Interesting discussion. Needs its own thread.

pconn062

Agreed and apologies for dragging this thread off topic. It is not my intention to be controversial, I love tennis but just have some concerns around that particular aspect. Will leave it alone now.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

To be honest I would think Nadal's "miraculous comeback" is more likely to be because he probably wasn't actually injured for 7 months. Yes his knees were giving him trouble, but I doubt it took 7 months to recover. He's constantly complaining about the hard courts so it wasn't at all surprising that he skipped the start of the season and only came back once there were clay tournaments to play.

A lot of the tennis players at the top will admit that the drugs testing they have in place is not enough, and that it's always random nobodies way down the rankings that get busted for it. However, there are enough players that are outspoken on a lot of issues and if there was any suspicion of the top players doing it I'm sure someone would be pointing the finger.

I have no problem with people discussing this issue and the facts, it's the unfounded vitriol that was being directed at Nadal by the_monkey that I had an issue with. Giruilla seemed to be heading in the same direction.

Giruilla

walshb wrote: »

Not sure what all this doping talk is about? Really, apart from fitness what would/have drugs done for Nadal? And, it's not like he's unbeatable. Clay is his specialty. Ridiculous talk.

Is everyone really so naive about nadal? He (along with others) have turned tennis into an endurance sport.

walshb

Giruilla wrote: »

Is everyone really so naive about nadal? He (along with others) have turned tennis into an endurance sport.

Is this all down to endurance? If so, then any endurance sport will be suspect. Every great and really fit athlete is now a drugs user?

You haven't at all backed up your claim. Calling people naive because they aren't prepared to take it that Nadal is a PEDs user is lame, and weak.

Are you saying that he's doing something that can only be done using drugs? What about other athletes who are even fitter than Nadal, in other sports, are we to assume it has to be down to drugs? Seriously, what are the human limits for endurance? What are you seeing on the court that screams of drugs use? I don't get it. Not at all saying that he or others are clean. I cannot know this for certain, but how am I naive because I am not prepared to label him a drugs user? If the man was levitating, or running 10 metre bursts in .7 secs I might question him. But for me he's just a great tennis player, like many others on the circuit.

Giruilla

walshb wrote: »

Is this all down to endurance? If so, then any endurance sport will be suspect. Every great and really fit athlete is now a drugs user?

You haven't at all backed up your claim. Calling people naive because they aren't prepared to take it that Nadal is a PEDs user is lame, and weak.

Are you saying that he's doing something that can only be done using drugs? What about other athletes who are even fitter than Nadal, in other sports, are we to assume it has to be down to drugs? Seriously, what are the human limits for endurance? What are you seeing on the court that screams of drugs use? I don't get it. Not at all saying that he or others are clean. I cannot know this for certain, but how am I naive because I am not prepared to label him a drugs user? If the man was levitating, or running 10 metre bursts in .7 secs I might question him. But for me he's just a great tennis player, like many others on the circuit.

Have you read this? http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ie/2011/02/curious-case-of-rafael-nadal.html

walshb

Giruilla wrote: »

Have you read this? http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.ie/2011/02/curious-case-of-rafael-nadal.html

Can you point to me a time when Nadal tested positive for PEDs? No, you cannot. Specualtion and innuendo.

Are there other athletes in the world of sport that are obvious drugs users? Just so we have some comparison. Or is Nadal the only one that you know is a drugs user?

Giruilla

walshb wrote: »

Can you point to me a time when Nadal tested positive for PEDs? No, you cannot. Specualtion and innuendo.

Are there other athletes in the world of sport that are obvious drugs users? Just so we have some comparison. Or is Nadal the only one that you know is a drugs user?

Right so you clearly haven't read it. Thats all I need to know.

walshb

Giruilla wrote: »

Right so you clearly haven't read it. Thats all I need to know.

I did. It proves nothing. Absolutely nothing. One could write that about any endurance sport/athlete. So, again, apart from Nadal who else in the sporting world past or present was so clearly a drugs user that never tested positive for PEDs or admitted to using PEDs?

If Nadal is a drugs user, then that would imply that Novak is one too, no?

Throw in Murray and Roger and anyone else who beat Nadal over 5 sets. Outlasted him!

Giruilla

walshb wrote: »

If Nadal is a drugs user, then that would imply that Novak is one too, no?

Ya think??

walshb

Giruilla wrote: »

Ya think??

I don't know. I am asking you. Surely if Nadal is a drugs user to you then a man like Novak who has consistently beaten Nadal, and outlasted him in 5 sets (OZ 2012) is one? Remember, you seem to be basing this all on endurance. What about 2008 Wimbledon? Is Roger a user too? How can you be sure that Nadal is fitter than Roger or Novak or Andy, to name three?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Most of the players take energy supplements when on court, so it's not surprising they can go for 4 or 5 hours.

Anyway, like we said, if you want to discuss doping in tennis in an educated and mature way, start a new thread. If you just want to continue throwing around unfounded rumours and pointing fingers take it to MTF or somewhere else.

walshb

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Most of the players take energy supplements when on court, so it's not surprising they can go for 4 or 5 hours.

Anyway, like we said, if you want to discuss doping in tennis in an educated and mature way, start a new thread. If you just want to continue throwing around unfounded rumours and pointing fingers take it to MTF or somewhere else.

And it's not like it's 4-5 hrs non stop. Plenty of rest in that time. As fit as tennis players are it's not a very very endurance based sport. It's more athleticism and power bursts than sustained cardio endurance.

Giruilla

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Most of the players take energy supplements when on court, so it's not surprising they can go for 4 or 5 hours.

Anyway, like we said, if you want to discuss doping in tennis in an educated and mature way, start a new thread. If you just want to continue throwing around unfounded rumours and pointing fingers take it to MTF or somewhere else.

I don't. I just wanted to give my opinion on the French Open result and followed up a few questions about my opinion. Didn't even mention 'run to my panic room when drug tester comes around' french open 2013 womens champion serena ....

BV4

walshb wrote: »

So, again, apart from Nadal who else in the sporting world past or present was so clearly a drugs user that never tested positive for PEDs or admitted to using PEDs?

Lance Armstrong, for awhile.

walshb

BV4 wrote: »

Lance Armstrong, for awhile.

Yes, for a while.

Halloween Jack

Anybody who doesnt believe tennis is in the middle of a PED boom has their head in the sand.

There are so many parrallells with PED dominated era's in other sports its untrue.

Time and time again, when things look too good to be true in sports, they normally are. Look at baseball for example, players having career best season's and magically improvin in their 30's (ferrer) or cycling, where athletes keep getting physically stronger and achieving feats thought impossible (nadal, murray, djokovic).

Its not just the fact that players can last 5 hours on court these days without even looking tired, but that they can play a match 36 hours later and suffer no ill effects.

That's before you look a bit closer and realise the links between Del Moral and Fuentes and certain establishment in miami and the tennis establishment.

Here's a quote from Ben Johnson's sprint coach from 1990, sounds familiar no?

"International sport is moving irrevocably toward a two-tiered athletic society--to prosecute the great mass of uninformed and expendable players, while giving carte blanche to a handful of well-connected superstars. Doping control in the 1990s will formalize limited, beatable testing--a controlled and selective roulette with the risk of major scandal. The anxious network sugar daddies will be appeased, the record-hungry fans satiated. And if the competitions become over-produced Hollywood farces, with an ever-widening gap between the few authentic contenders and all the rest with no chance, who will be the wiser."

Halloween Jack

walshb wrote: »

Yes, for a while.

The parallells between Armstrong and Nadal are there, dont forget it took nearly 15 years to put Armstrong to bed, who knows what the future holds?

Armstrong never tested postive after all, except he did actuallly and the ITF UCI swept it under the carpet via a post dated TUE. I wonder who else may have extensive TUE's, maybe for experimental knee treatments?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Seeing as nobody seems capable of following simple instructions this thread is now locked.