What are the pros and cons of multiracial multicultural society?

Cavehill Red

laoch na mona wrote: »

so do I so lets leave out irrelevant details like the ethnicity of the criminals m'kay nice to see you have finally seen sense

Since we're at it, why not leave gender out of it too? Maybe even species? If we're going to be truly blind to difference, that is.
Then the next time a woman is raped, we can interview grannies, kids and dogs and see if they're guilty. In the name of equality, of course.
Or, and I understand you may have difficulty with this, we could use statistical analysis to establish that grannies, kids and dogs are unlikely to be responsible for any more rapes than they have been in the past, and that future rapists are likely to adhere closely to existing rapist profiles, and investigate accordingly with that information augmenting information provided by the victim and by forensics.

laoch na mona

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Feel free to scan DOWN that same page 53 for the 2011 figures. They're much the same, with no major fluctuations. Norwegians still commit only a minority of rapes in their own capital, at a rate many times lower than the rate committed by Africans, Asians and Middle Eastern men.

there is likely a class difference at play. Thats something racists ignore and it plays into the hands of right wing politicians who want people to ignore the inequalities between different class groups and focus on immigrants instead

laoch na mona

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Since we're at it, why not leave gender out of it too? Maybe even species? If we're going to be truly blind to difference, that is.
Then the next time a woman is raped, we can interview grannies, kids and dogs and see if they're guilty. In the name of equality, of course.
Or, and I understand you may have difficulty with this, we could use statistical analysis to establish that grannies, kids and dogs are unlikely to be responsible for any more rapes than they have been in the past, and that future rapists are likely to adhere closely to existing rapist profiles, and investigate accordingly with that information augmenting information provided by the victim and by forensics.

you deliberately misunderstand I was saying that race should be ignored when looking at statistics not when investigating no one is saying that police looking for a Asian should question black people

Cavehill Red

laoch na mona wrote: »

there is likely a class difference at play. Thats something racists ignore and it plays into the hands of right wing politicians who want people to ignore the inequalities between different class groups and focus on immigrants instead

I'm all ears. Do tell how the dirty lower orders are rapists, why don't you? Of course, you'll have statistical proof to support that assertion? Statistical proof that outweighs a 50 fold ratio of African rapists to Norwegian ones?
You're grasping at straws which don't even exist now, I'm afraid. The facts are indisputable. A rational discussion would begin with a consideration of those facts, and proceed from there.
This being AH, it will inevitably run instead along the lines that anyone who finds such statistics disturbing is obviously a KKK Nazi who wants to burn all non-Aryans in concentration camps.
And that is rather sad, because the one way to insure the rise of far-right parties is to ignore statistics like these, or preposterously seek to disassociate them from their signifiers. The stats don't say African grannies. They don't say poor Africans. They say African men, primarily Muslim immigrants from the Horn of Africa.
Now, I've been to that area (though not Somalia.) There are a lot of lovely people there, but generally it's very poor, and most people are not well educated. Parts are extremely conservative, superstitious, highly sexist and there is endemic violence. There is a lot of resentment towards Europeans in places where they feel they haven't had a fair share of the world's wealth, and where they envy European living standards.
It's wilful blindness to expect people to emerge from that background and leave all of that behind at the arrivals lounge of the airport. Some will manage to adapt and integrate and make a success of themselves, often despite their community rather than with its support. Many will not. I have no answer as to what to do about that, but I know that sticking our heads in the sand while women are being raped and pretending it's not happening is not a valid answer.

Paramite Pie

wintersolstice wrote: »

are there any pros? it does't seem to work too well in any country that is multicultured.UK is a nightmare.

The UK has a significantly different history regarding immigrants and racial tensions. There were many non-European immigrants (most likey North African sailors) in England as far back as the 16th century. Queen Elizabeth I even complained that there were too many black people in London as far back as 1596.

Britain's later colonial ambitions came back to bite them on the ass as they opened the pathways/trade routes for immigrants from India, Pakistan, the Caribbean, Hong Kong ect...

These immigrants arrived at a time where racism was inherent in Europe and these communities became marginalized and ghettos sprung up.

Ireland has immigrants arriving in modern times where segregation is alot less likely, though we need to be vigilant against segregation. I imagine it's very lonely for some immigrants who are 40+ due to it being harder to adapt but their kids seem to do well judging by school kids in our area (I unfortunately have to share a bus with them after work - kids from all ethnic backgrounds are equally annoying:mad:)

woodoo wrote: »

In America in the 1950's 90% of the population was of white european ancestry. By 2050 it is possible that that population will be a minority. Nobody is discussing whether that will be a good thing or bad thing for those people. Why not? It seems people are just hoping it all works out.

Well prior to the 1950s there were immigration laws limiting the numbers on non-whites to preserve the racial 'balance' of a white majority.

For example in 1790, when the first US census was taken, Africans made up about 19.3% of the population (757,208) which means there must have been at most a 81.7% white population. (natives were not included in the census so reduce that figure)

By 1930, there were 11.9 million African Americans (a massive increase) but they only made up 9.7% of the population. Demographics change all the time, and in those days it was mosty white immigrants who were allowed entry to ensure a white majority.

America was not originally a white land *cough*native*cough* anyways so I don't think it's the same as a European country losing it's majority. In 50 years time I think there will be no clear ethnic majority in major US cities.

Poorer/less educated people tend to have more kids and the American tradition of disenfranchising non-white people led to large populations of poor, segregated minorities having lots and lots of kids. Older white people are dying off as well. There are many reasons and it's not just immigration.

laoch na mona

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm all ears. Do tell how the dirty lower orders are rapists.

dirty lower orders? you are a horrible person but to mention rape it is linked to the patriarchy and control which are part of capitalism

Rape is not about sexual desire, rather it is the ultimate expression of power, control and supremacy over another human being. The majority of survivors and victims are female, and the vast majority of perpetrators of rape are male. Male survivors of rape are particularly stigmatised, partially as it’s portrayed as an emasculating experience. The example of female soldiers participating in the sexual degradation of male prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison, Iraq, is an example of how rape and sexual abuse are fundamentally about an expression of power, with the imperialist forces in this instance using sexual abuse in a very conscious way to degrade and to demoralise.

Thousands of years of female oppression have meant thousands of years of subjugation, including rape. The prevalence of rape of female slaves, perpetrated by male slave-owners in the South in the US prior to the US Civil War, is one of many examples of rape as an expression of such subjugation that’s interlinked with the economic oppression also being experienced. The beginning of class society about ten thousand years ago was a key moment in the moulding of social structures and ideology that oppressed women. The ideology of the nuclear and patriarchal family in particular, reaching its apotheosis in Ancient Rome when father had ultimate say over his wife and children, including whether they lived or died, was an ideology shaped and utilised by the current economic system of capitalism. Despite huge struggle and change since, the promotion of this ideology has contributed to the continued oppression of women.

It is no coincidence that most rape and sexual abuse is perpetrated by someone known to the victim, often a family member, or partner or ex-partner. Under capitalism, the ideology of the patriarchal family that was pushed from its outset ensured that women were sources of hours of unpaid labour, as they still are today in many ways and cases, in carrying out work in the home and work caring for children, and sick and elderly relatives. Such an ideology was contradicted by the necessity of a female labour force within the profit-system, but it did aid the justification of lower wages for women workers, a reality still present today in the advanced capitalist world. In Ireland a recent OECD report, for example indicates that women earn on average 14% less than men, and this gap rises to 31% for women who have children.

Cavehill Red

I see now you're resorting to personal abuse in lieu of argument.
I'd remind you that Norway is not the confederacy, and Eritreans are not the American descendents of West African plantation slaves.

laoch na mona

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I see now you're resorting to personal abuse in lieu of argument.
I'd remind you that Norway is not the confederacy, and Eritreans are not the American descendents of West African plantation slaves.

racism is racism

Cavehill Red

laoch na mona wrote: »

racism is racism

When an African rapes a Norwegian, which is the racist?

SeanW

laoch na mona wrote: »

bull**** its the right who see nothing wrong with massive disparities in the complexion of the workforce and try to claim meritocracy exists

But it does. In a profit driven system an employer has a strong incentive to pick the best candidate for any given job. If a minority woman is a better fit for a job than a white man, then any employer seeking someone with that skill would be foolish not to take them on, not only because not to do so would deprive them of a very qualified worker, but because their competition might be able to beat them with a better worker.

laoch na mona wrote: »

In Ireland a recent OECD report, for example indicates that women earn on average 14% less than men, and this gap rises to 31% for women who have children.

Ok, but is this for doing the same jobs? Do women get paid less for doing THE SAME jobs as men? Or for doing different jobs? That's a key difference that I think you'd like to gloss over.

laoch na mona

Cavehill Red wrote: »

When an African rapes a Norwegian, which is the racist?

the internet troll who some how sees a link between rape and ethnicity

Clandestine

laoch na mona wrote: »

the internet troll who some how sees a link between rape and ethnicity

But blacks are statistically more likely to commit such a crime.

laoch na mona

SeanW wrote: »

But it does. In a profit driven system an employer has a strong incentive to pick the best candidate for any given job

Ok, but is this for doing the same jobs? Do women get paid less for doing THE SAME jobs as men? Or for doing different jobs? That's a key difference that I think you'd like to gloss over.

you ignore the fact that minorities and lower class groups have less access to education meaning they don't have a chance to reach the top of profession so unequality persists.
what you propose would be fine if there was a level playing field but there is not

laoch na mona

Clandestine wrote: »

But blacks are statistically more likely to commit such a crime.

no there is nothing that makes black people inherently criminal as you suggest

Cavehill Red

laoch na mona wrote: »

the internet troll who some how sees a link between rape and ethnicity

No, that would be the Oslo police department's statistics which demonstrate the link in Norway, and the link is between rape and region of origin, not ethnicity.
Because you cannot dispute those facts, you have firstly disgracefully alleged a link between poor people and rape that I defy you to produce evidence of, secondly attempted a poor 'look-over-there' by bringing in some hackneyed Marxism and a fatally simplified potted history of race relations on an entirely separate continent in a totally different century, and now, bereft of all pretence at debate, you resort to base insult.
Fine, you're reported.

Dyr

Cavehill Red wrote: »

When an African rapes a Norwegian, which is the racist?

The capitalist of course

SeanW

laoch na mona wrote: »

you ignore the fact that minorities and lower class groups have less access to education meaning they don't have a chance to reach the top of profession so unequality persists.
what you propose would be fine if there was a level playing field but there is not

Which I could at least consider if your approach (affirmitive action) was not racist.

So you decide that marginalised people need a hand up but decide that its only one group, e.g. African Americans in the U.S.

So two people come from poor circumstances. One is a poor white boy who came from a trailer park, worked and scrimped through college to make something better of himself.
The other is a poor black boy who came from similar circumstances.

Under your system, the man from the trailer park gets sent to the back of the line because he's white. That's racist.

Cavehill Red

laoch na mona wrote: »

no there is nothing that makes black people inherently criminal as you suggest

Another McGuffin and distraction attempt. Nobody's even suggested that except you.
Everyone else is discussing the statistical facts, you know, the facts you refuse to acknowledge.

Cavehill Red

Bambi wrote: »

The capitalist of course

As I said on page one, capitalism has a lot to answer for in relation to the drive towards globalisation.
But - pace the Derg and Ethiopia's communist past - I really don't think that any of the protagonists in Oslo's rape tragedy are likely to be anything other than capitalists, be they the rapists or the victims. It's just more diversionary BS, really.

Dyr

Cavehill Red wrote: »

As I said on page one, capitalism has a lot to answer for in relation to the drive towards globalisation.
But - pace the Derg and Ethiopia's communist past - I really don't think that any of the protagonists in Oslo's rape tragedy are likely to be anything other than capitalists, be they the rapists or the victims. It's just more diversionary BS, really.

They're probably just men from ass backward cultures that view women as nothing more than a commodity so it is capitalism of a sort i guess.

Clusterf*ck threads make my brain cry.