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What are the pros and cons of multiracial multicultural society?

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    #32
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,126 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    Pros:
    Broadens people's horizons, learn different ways of doing things.
    Large selection of food
    Chance to improve language skills
    Good looking people (depends on people's taste of course)


    Cons:
    Foreign welfare spongers (though we have many Irish spongers too, just need to enforce things properly)


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    #33
    Grand Moff Tarkin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 862 ✭✭✭Grand Moff Tarkin


    This thread can only end well.


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    #34
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    The average southerner is happy with partition. All these Republican groups have an ideal which is no longer wanted. That's the reason that they now engage in organised crime. There's no cause to fight anymore, we don't want the 6 counties.


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    #35
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    This thread can only end well.

    Why don't we just settle it now.

    Pro: New different people with a different outlook on life. They expand our cultural horizons and help us appreciate our place within a global community

    Cons: New different people with a different outlook on life. They will destroy our culture, take our jobs and our women.


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    #36
    Festy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭Festy


    PRO - Beautiful women everywhere :D

    CON - Good looking men everywhere :mad:


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    #37
    wintersolstice
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭wintersolstice


    are there any pros? it does't seem to work too well in any country that is multicultured.UK is a nightmare.


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    #38
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    wintersolstice wrote: »
    are there any pros? it does't seem to work too well in any country that is multicultured.UK is a nightmare.

    And sweden is a hell hole.


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    #39
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    Although to be fair, I know of one woman who had this darling child until the foreigners turned up. Then the kid turned into a bastard. I think they sneaked in and took the child in the night and swapped him for one of their own. Her cows stopped producing milk the next day. And then her left eye fell out.

    Swear to god, heard someone complaining about how a school was becoming worse and they said it was the "Polish kid's" fault:rolleyes:
    It's a bit horrible to drag children into it.
    And sweden is a hell hole.

    Hmmm, is Sweden multicultural? As in integrated fully into society?


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    #40
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,126 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    wintersolstice wrote: »
    are there any pros? it does't seem to work too well in any country that is multicultured.UK is a nightmare.

    Perhaps we should be looking more towards the North Korean model, closed borders and the like


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    #41
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    Swear to god, heard someone complaining about how a school was becoming worse and they said it was the "Polish kid's" fault:rolleyes:
    It's a bit horrible to drag children into it.



    Hmmm, is Sweden multicultural? As in integrated fully into society?

    Sweden has some problems with poor immigrants in poor neighborhoods. But those are more social issues. As good a sweden is, it's not perfect. There are still poor neighborhoods with poor people. And in areas like that you are going to find issues like drugs and violence arising.
    But it's nothing like france or the UK. Multiculturalism isn't really the problem. It's the societies fault. When immigrants started arriving in both countries they were marginalized. And you ended up with neighborhoods like the Parisian suburbs where they are turning into ghetto's. In ireland we don't have that as much. It's not like we have a black or chinese neighborhood. With the exception of some of the richer areas, people who came to ireland are pretty well spread out. They're in every town, every estate. Their kids are in every school. Immigrants from pretty much every country managed to come here and integrate pretty well.


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    #42
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    Grayson wrote: »
    And sweden is a hell hole.

    As is Germany, one would imagine... lots of non-nationals and 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants and look how badly that turned out.


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    #43
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    This thread can only end well.
    Couldn't agree more.


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    #44
    doolox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭doolox


    I would prefer a small amount of gradual multi ethnic mixing because the way we have gone is too sudden and too demanding on the average worker and the person of average language and social skills.

    There is a certain element of truth in the hackneyed phrase "they took our jobs". Many Irish native people have been displaced in recent years by foreign people in many sectors and have to emigrate. It could be the case that the native Irish do not want to do the low paid difficult hours and physically demanding work that some foreigners will happily do. Two examples spring to mind, care of the elderly and meat processing which seem to be the preserve of Filipino and Brazilian workers with little or no input at the junior level by the Irish.

    Problems arise when there is a mixed workforce with bad or lazy management and a reluctance to discipline workers in an fair and equal manner. Because of the perceived lower standard of language by some foreigners less demanding standards of behaviour and accuracy can be demanded off them if the management are too lazy to take the effort to control and direct all their employees equally and fairly. I have seen this go both ways, where native Irish are expected to carry the can by being allocated the more difficult and demanding parts of the work because of their perceived better langauge understanding or the foreigner being given the hard work because of the perception that they are more desperate for the work etc. and "dont know their rights"

    Some people depending on work visas from a single employer can find this dependancy on one employer is exploited while the Irish native can jump ship and get another job if their present employment becomes to difficult or demanding.

    While multi culturalism may be good for the users of employees and services it is not so good for the suppliers especially those at the bottom of the skills spectrum or those with easily transferable skills, hence you have major flashpoints among taxi workers, manual labourers etc who see their working conditions and earnings being eroded by the influx of cheap foreign labour.

    More work needs to be done in informing people of their rights in employment contracts, the real high cost of living here in Ireland needs to be signposted clearly so that workers can make viable long term choices about the working earnings. I do not believe that foreign workers choose to work here for lower wages than the Irish but it is not pointed out to them how dear it is to live in Ireland. Many do not find out until it is too late and they have agreed to ridiculously low wages, long hours and onerous working conditions. This needs to be policed vigourously.

    Multiculturalism is fine in small doses but it does not suit everybody and should not be forced on the native population at too high a speed solely for the benefit of the upper middle class and elite classes at the expense of working conditions and earning power of the lower classes.

    Previous notes mentioned Brazil as an example of multiethnic society, some of their cities have the highest murder rates in the world.
    Also South Africa has a very high murder rate even after the end of Aparthied.


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    #45
    mikemac1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,395 ✭✭✭✭mikemac1


    Top post ^^^^


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    #46
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Grand Moff Tarkin wrote: »
    This thread can only end well.

    It has started reasonably well so far. Hopefully it stays that way.

    We often hear people give out about passing on our debts to our children, it is talked about online, in the pubs, in the media, on TV etc. What you never hear discussed is what sort of society are we passing on to our children and grandchildren. Will it work? Is it wise to chance so quickly? Is the multicultural model really a good one? Would assimilation be better? Do people really want this change? They are all valid questions and i'm sure there are many more. Why is it never discussed. Why are the media so afraid of it.


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    #47
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    woodoo wrote: »
    It has started reasonably well so far. Hopefully it stays that way.

    We often hear people give out about passing on our debts to our children, it is talked about online, in the pubs, in the media, on TV etc. What you never hear discussed is what sort of society are we passing on to our children and grandchildren. Will it work? Is it wise to chance so quickly? Is the multicultural model really a good one? Would assimilation be better? Do people really want this change? They are all valid questions and i'm sure there are many more. Why is it never discussed. Why are the media so afraid of it.

    I think assimilation is not a viable approach.
    I'm German living in Ireland, and much as I love it here, I would not have stayed if I had the feeling that I needed to assimilate rather than integrate.
    For starters, I don't drink...

    I think what needs to be promoted is integration - of both the newcomers and the native population. Integration can never happen from just one side. And integration should mean agreeing on the same basic social standards and ethical behaviour, nothing more but also nothing less.
    I feel that coming to a new country, people do need to be aware that moral standards might be slightly or very different (to me, coming to Ireland meant facing much more conservative and restricted moral framework), and people need to be ready to adhere to that.
    At the same time, I think natives need to accept that outside of this framework, people need to be entitled to live their lives as they please. And that ranges from the food they eat to the way they dress to what cars they drive to the music they listen to to the language they speak.

    People will list the US and Brazil with their high numbers of crime as examples of failed multiculturalism, but I think that the reasons behind those crimes are far more banal than that.
    Both countries have a very large gap between the very, very rich and the incredibly poor, which is never a good recipe for a stable society. On top of that, both countries have numbers of almost insanely large cities - and human beings living in too great numbers in too little space have this tendency to become very aggressive towards each other.


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    #48
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    pros - fitter looking women, we become more sophisticated & worldly and less bog brained & parochial, more ethnic restaurants, cheaper plumbers :)

    cons - some sponge our dole, steal our women, having to repeat yourself when you're at the till
    oh yes just remembered...stealing clothes from our charities (did you see primetime the other night?) :mad:


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    #49
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    fryup wrote: »
    pros - fitter looking women, we become more sophisticated and less bog brained, more ethnic restaurants, cheaper plumbers :)

    cons - some sponge our dole, steal our women, having to repeat yourself when you're at the till :mad:

    What do you mean steal, are you suggesting that maurading groups of forigeners are involved in high levels of kidnapping?;)


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    #50
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,496 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    I hate the idea. Completely against it, countries are losing their native people and culture. And I'm not being racist it just makes me sad, eventually the human race will just become one look alike race and there will be no such thing as diversity.


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    #51
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    I hate the idea. Completely against it, countries are losing their native people and culture. And I'm not being racist it just makes me sad, eventually the human race will just become one look alike race and there will be no such thing as diversity.

    *lol How do you think those "native" people came to be there in the first place? Unless you happen to post from the East African Rift Valley, you're just as much a blow-in as the rest of us, and just as much a mongrel.

    But sure, let's freeze all countries and societies just as they are right now, and never ever change a thing about them ever again.


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    #52
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    doolox wrote: »
    Previous notes mentioned Brazil as an example of multiethnic society, some of their cities have the highest murder rates in the world.
    Also South Africa has a very high murder rate even after the end of Aparthied.

    But Brazil is a ****hole and as a post colonial country in south america it was always going to be. Very few countries there have managed to develop well. They are like that for the same reason much of africa and asia is.

    It's best to compare like with like. the UK would be a better example. But again there are differences. The UK's influx occured in the 50's & 60's. When people moved they were placed into social housing etc and ended up being all crammed into the same neighbourhoods.

    With ireland, there wasn't the same kind of influx. Sure plenty of people came, but they were far more spread out. Plus they came because we needed the workers. There might be an apmosphere of "they took our jobs" now, but during the boom there were more than enough jobs.


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    #53
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    What do you mean steal, are you suggesting that maurading groups of forigeners are involved in high levels of kidnapping?;)

    Whenever I go on holidays i always make sure to grab a woman in duty free. Ryanair are bastards with the extra charges though.


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    #54
    bb1234567
    Registered Users Posts: 5,496 ✭✭✭bb1234567


    Shenshen wrote: »
    *lol How do you think those "native" people came to be there in the first place? Unless you happen to post from the East African Rift Valley, you're just as much a blow-in as the rest of us, and just as much a mongrel.

    But sure, let's freeze all countries and societies just as they are right now, and never ever change a thing about them ever again.

    haha i knew people would start saying this :Pok well how about anyone that descended from a person living in the coutry at the time the country became an official state is considered a native? idk im sure we'd figure out some way to decided whose considered native to said country and who is not..


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    #55
    crockholm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    Grayson wrote: »
    And sweden is a hell hole.
    The fastest growing party and currently 3rd most popular party in the country is an anti-immigration party. Imagine if the BNP had 13% of the vote,thats what it's like here. Swedes do not seem to like multi-culti as much as you think.


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    #56
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    haha i knew people would start saying this :Pok well how about anyone that descended from a person living in the coutry at the time the country became an official state is considered a native? idk im sure we'd figure out some way to decided whose considered native to said country and who is not..
    Yeah, you bring in racial purity laws, like the Germans did in the 30's!


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    #57
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    crockholm wrote: »
    The fastest growing party and currently 3rd most popular party in the country is an anti-immigration party. Imagine if the BNP had 13% of the vote,thats what it's like here. Swedes do not seem to like multi-culti as much as you think.

    But it's far from Brazil that was used as an example.


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    #58
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Pros: people are exposed to different cultures, different value systems, people learn to respect people who are different from them, people learn to become less racist and bigoted. More restaurants, more things to do etc.

    Cons: poor government policies lead to discrimination, marginalisation and ghettoization of immigrant minorities (fortunately this hasn't happened in Ireland). Some immigrants exploit the welfare system (but so do many natives!) and enter into sham marriages and such to obtain a better passport. During times of economic stress people tend to feel the immigrants have taken away their jobs as they see themselves unemployed and question when the come across immigrants who are employed. Finally Europe has a history of blaming the minorities as a scapegoat when the economy goes to ****. This is what's going on in Greece, Spain, France, Netherlanders, Germany and to a certain extent in Britain, Germany, Sweden and italy which can be seen by the recent rise of far right parties in these countries.


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    #59
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    bb1234567 wrote: »
    haha i knew people would start saying this :Pok well how about anyone that descended from a person living in the coutry at the time the country became an official state is considered a native? idk im sure we'd figure out some way to decided whose considered native to said country and who is not..

    I'm sure we could, we could use any kind of arbitrary criteria... everybody who can proof that all of his/her ancestors up until 3 generations back, or 5 generation, or 20, were born in the country. What would you do some 60 or 90 years down the line, when you have Ludmilla Szcepanski qualifying under just that criterium, or Gino Aoyade?

    Or you could go with everybody whose ancestors were present when the country was officially declared - which would be a very interesting criteria for places like the UK, which was never really officially declared one country, as far as I know, or for Germany - which incarnation of the German nation would we want to look at for purposes of determining nativity?

    The question is, what advantage is there in taking such a screenshot of one particular moment in time? Making an arbitrary distinction between "them" and "us", in order to declare "us" to be native and in control, and "them" not native and therefore having to live in the way "we" decide for them?


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    #60
    crockholm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭crockholm


    Grayson wrote: »
    But it's far from Brazil that was used as an example.

    It was,but it aint the brown folks at the top table either. Swedes success was down to Swedes,and to a lesser extent,the Finns.Any area that has a large non-native population is a by-word for crime-ridden and poor.And it doesn't change the fact that more and more Swedes are looking at the option of a far- right party to do something about the unwanted multiculturism


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    #61
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    crockholm wrote: »
    It was,but it aint the brown folks at the top table either. Swedes success was down to Swedes,and to a lesser extent,the Finns.Any area that has a large non-native population is a by-word for crime-ridden and poor.And it doesn't change the fact that more and more Swedes are looking at the option of a far- right party to do something about the unwanted multiculturism

    Ok, I'm going out on a limb here, but most of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, for example, are not "native" by any stretch of the definition.
    Yet I wouldn't consider any of there to be "crime-ridden and poor".

    Btw, Brazil is the 7th strongest economy in the world, and one of the fastest growing at the moment. I'm not saying they've got all their social problems sorted, but I expect they will tackle them before too long.


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