The sex myth

Trudiha

tritium wrote: »

First off, giving someone skills and insight to protect themselves isn't rape culture, it's common sense- telling someone to be alert for speeding cars isn't the same as blaming them if they get knocked down by one!

You're second point is frankly patronising to men. I don't know a single man who would claim rape is acceptable. However there's a tendency from some quarters to use the word rape in utterly inappropriate, catch all contexts. You don't get to define something this serious to suit your agenda!

I don't know a single man who'd say that rape is acceptable either but I know plenty who blame the victim by suggesting that she curtails her life because other men rape. That's part of rape culture.

I also know plenty of men who think that some kinds of rape are more acceptable or at least, less bad, than others. That's part of rape culture.

Telling women how they can dress, where they can go and how they should behave is as useful to a discussion on rape as announcing that all men are potential rapists.

smcgiff

Rosy Posy wrote: »

IMO this is precisely the place to raise awareness of rape culture.

So far I think we can get consensus that most people get groped in their lives by the opposite sex - Male and female.

It's probably fair to say that the groping of a woman by a man is more serious - by virtue of the fact that it's taken more seriously by women.

While inappropriate, fleeting, inappropriate touching is not as serious as rape, and if allowed by society can lead to a rape culture - I'm thinking of certain countries where women are expected to be veiled.

However, is there a belief that there is a rape culture in this country?

Uriel.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Not necessarily.

But possible? You'd consider it a component of rape culture?

It's an interesting subject, you should read up on it past the first chapter of a wikipedia page.

ok?

IM0

Trudiha wrote: »

Telling women how they can dress, where they can go and how they should behave is as useful to a discussion on rape as announcing that all men are potential rapists.

but they are

Lingua Franca

tritium wrote: »

JEsus, how did we get from the ops original sex myth thread to a debate on rape culture.

The OP asked "What sex myths do you believe are propagated by the media and various organisations?', post #7 was someone doubting the 1 in 4 women have been sexually assaulted statistic.

miggins

IM0 wrote: »

It was when someone got a bee in thier arse Im pretty sure

Did that bee get permission to go near that ass?

Three Seasons

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Not necessarily. Rape culture is about normalising and accepting misogyny. It's an interesting subject, you should read up on it past the first chapter of a wikipedia page.

A person who likes women in general could be a rapist, he could just hate one particular woman and conversely an actual mysogynist ( a person who hates women) could be completely against rape and happily defend women from rapists. I don't see the relevance to bring mysigyny into this.

IM0

miggins wrote: »

Did that bee get permission to go near that ass?

well it was wearing a short skirt so

sbsquarepants

Trudiha wrote: »

I don't know a single man who'd say that rape is acceptable either but I know plenty who blame the victim by suggesting that she curtails her life because other men rape. That's part of rape culture. .

That's not blaming the victim. We should all be able to go wherever and do whatever we want, but in reality we aren't. I can't walk through dolphins barn at 3 in the morning blinged up like kanye west - i should be able, but i'm not and that's just that. So if someone was to advise me not to do that - that would be good advice, not a tacit endorsement of the mugging culture.

Trudiha wrote: »

I also know plenty of men who think that some kinds of rape are more acceptable or at least, less bad, than others. That's part of rape culture. .

You know some right assholes then.

Trudiha wrote: »

Telling women how they can dress, where they can go and how they should behave is as useful to a discussion on rape as announcing that all men are potential rapists.

Again - there is nothing wrong with teaching people how to look out for themselves. They world is far from perfect, operating from the assumption that it is will only lead to tears.

--Kaiser--

I don't condone groping BTW, I've never done groped anyone and I'm usually extremely annoyed when it's done to me, I just don't think it's in the ballpark of a sexual assault

Trudiha

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Scumbags lead to rape, nothing else.

I'm not of the opinion that most rapists are scumbags, there are simply too many of them for that. I'd be the first to admit that it's hard for young men growing up in a culture where they are surrounded by images of women who appear to be available to them, where they are told that women say 'no' when they mean 'yes'. When they are told that women who aren't covered from head to toe are begging for it and that women walking alone at night are fair game. To have all of that ****e fed to you, would obviously mess with your head and, sadly, it's exactly what men hear from other men.

1ZRed

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Not necessarily. Rape culture is about normalising and accepting misogyny. It's an interesting subject, you should read up on it past the first chapter of a wikipedia page.

Normalising misogyny is part of rape culture? Seriously?

You're treating this as a totally one sided thing. I've had my ass groped by girls in the past, is this not sexual assault too?

It seems to be a trend that when guys do it it's so bad and it's an example of growing rape culture, but when a girl does it it's nothing but a bit of harmless fun. I don't condone any of it but treat it all the same.

sbsquarepants

Trudiha wrote: »

I'm not of the opinion that most rapists are scumbags, there are simply too many of them for that. I'd be the first to admit that it's hard for young men growing up in a culture where they are surrounded by images of women who appear to be available to them, where they are told that women say 'no' when they mean 'yes'. When they are told that women who aren't covered from head to toe are begging for it and that women walking alone at night are fair game. To have all of that ****e fed to you, would obviously mess with your head and, sadly, it's exactly what men hear from other men.

You must have grown up in Pakistan or somewhere because as a 38 year old man, born and lived my whole life in Ireland - that is not even close to the experience i've had.

Three Seasons

Trudiha wrote: »

I'm not of the opinion that most rapists are scumbags, there are simply too many of them for that. I'd be the first to admit that it's hard for young men growing up in a culture where they are surrounded by images of women who appear to be available to them, where they are told that women say 'no' when they mean 'yes'. When they are told that women who aren't covered from head to toe are begging for it and that women walking alone at night are fair game. To have all of that ****e fed to you, would obviously mess with your head and, sadly, it's exactly what men hear from other men.

I've never been told all that. Who says this sh1t?

"Women walking alone are fair game". What does it mean to be fair game?

--Kaiser--

Trudiha wrote: »

I'm not of the opinion that most rapists are scumbags, there are simply too many of them for that. I'd be the first to admit that it's hard for young men growing up in a culture where they are surrounded by images of women who appear to be available to them, where they are told that women say 'no' when they mean 'yes'. When they are told that women who aren't covered from head to toe are begging for it and that women walking alone at night are fair game. To have all of that ****e fed to you, would obviously mess with your head and, sadly, it's exactly what men hear from other men.

Who are you talking about? I've never heard any of the above, sounds like you've got a twisted imagination or you've fallen for some radical feminist propaganda

Rosy Posy

tritium wrote: »

Wow, where to start. Maybe by pointing out the irony of attacking a poster with a stream of unsubstantiated assertions and then suggesting they do some research. Tell us, why do you think your three in four assertion has any more credibility then the less than one in four the poster implied?

I don't mean this as a dig at you, but the biggest problem in debating issues like this is everyone want their opinion to be fact, and shouts down any dissent. The reality is there are complex reasons for the type of society we have today, and to simplistically throw out terms like rape culture goes nowhere to understanding them!

What exactly is unsubstantiated. I would hazard a guess of three in four for some kind of sexual assault based on anecdotal evidence from friends, from discussions online and from group therapy work (unrelated to psychopathology or sexual assault).

I think that the use of the term rape culture is perfectly legitimate when we live in a world where young men think that violating an unconscious girl and posting photos online can't be rape because its not violent (evidence from the Steubenville trial), where rape victims can be branded as a slut (the Rehteah Parsons case), where the responsibility for not being raped is placed on the shoulders of women by being told what not to wear, where not to go and not to get drunk.

A relevant article that goes in to it in way more detail here

http://cogentcomment.com/2013/03/19/so-youre-tired-of-hearing-about-rape-culture/

Rape culture is when you’re tired of hearing about “rape culture” because it makes you uncomfortable, as your attempt to silence discourse on the subject means we never raise enough awareness to combat it – and that’s part of why it sticks around.

So yeah, I’m sorry you’re tired of hearing about it. But I wouldn’t expect us to shut up anytime soon. Nor should we.

Yes I agree that there are complex reasons for the way that women and sexuality are viewed in society and that this attitude of "1 in 4 can't be true" with the undertone of false accusation that plagues the rape survivor is a manifestation of that.

Where to start? Lets start by examining and reevaluating our assumptions.

Trudiha

Trudiha wrote: »

These 'precautions' you talk about, dressing like a nun, not going out alone at night, never having a drink, never talking to men who aren't part of your family are all practised by some women in some Muslim countries. Rape still happens in those countries.

It's not silly or irresponsible to think that the lives of all women shouldn't be curtailed because a minority of men are rapists, however, suggesting that they should, is blaming the victim.

So you shouldn't tell kids when they started going out to avoid places known to be dodgy or to always keep an eye on their drink? Or is it ok to tell the lads but not the girls?

Lingua Franca

1ZRed wrote: »

Normalising misogyny is part of rape culture? Seriously?

Yes.

You're treating this as a totally one sided thing.

I'm not, as you will see.

I've had my ass groped by girls in the past, is this not sexual assault too?

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yes.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Indeed, that could well be true.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

That kind of behaviour is, yes. I'm as disgusted by that kind of behaviour from women as from men.

...etc.

It seems to be a trend that when guys do it it's so bad and it's an example of growing rape culture, but when a girl does it it's nothing but a bit of harmless fun. I don't condone any of it but treat it all the same.

And clearly, I'm the same.

Trudiha

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Again - there is nothing wrong with teaching people how to look out for themselves. They world is far from perfect, operating from the assumption that it is will only lead to tears.

One of the most toxic parts of rape culture is the reinforcement of the myths around people who are raped. Every single time that a list of things that women should or shouldn't do to avoid rape is trotted out, it makes space for rapists to excuse their behaviour and evade conviction. The vast majority of rapes are carried out by men known to their victims and it makes no odds to them what the woman is wearing or where she has been.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

is women groping men also a part of rape culture?

or is rape culture just something men do to women

--Kaiser--

Rosy Posy wrote: »

What exactly is unsubstantiated. I would hazard a guess of three in four for some kind of sexual assault based on anecdotal evidence from friends, from discussions online and from group therapy work (unrelated to psychopathology or sexual assault).

I think that the use of the term rape culture is perfectly legitimate when we live in a world where young men think that violating an unconscious girl and posting photos online can't be rape because its not violent (evidence from the Steubenville trial), where rape victims can be branded as a slut (the Rehteah Parsons case), where the responsibility for not being raped is placed on the shoulders of women by being told what not to wear, where not to go and not to get drunk.

A relevant article that goes in to it in way more detail here

http://cogentcomment.com/2013/03/19/so-youre-tired-of-hearing-about-rape-culture/



Yes I agree that there are complex reasons for the way that women and sexuality are viewed in society and that this attitude of "1 in 4 can't be true" with the undertone of false accusation that plagues the rape survivor is a manifestation of that.

Where to start? Lets start by examining and reevaluating our assumptions.

Let's start by examining why you assume there is a 'rape culture' based on....the fact that some men are rapists...and **** all else really. You might as well say that black people have a 'murder culture' based on the fact that some black people are murderers

Rosy Posy

Rosy Posy wrote: »

What exactly is unsubstantiated. I would hazard a guess of three in four for some kind of sexual assault based on anecdotal evidence from friends, from discussions online and from group therapy work (unrelated to psychopathology or sexual assault).

I think that the use of the term rape culture is perfectly legitimate when we live in a world where young men think that violating an unconscious girl and posting photos online can't be rape because its not violent (evidence from the Steubenville trial), where rape victims can be branded as a slut (the Rehteah Parsons case), where the responsibility for not being raped is placed on the shoulders of women by being told what not to wear, where not to go and not to get drunk.

Has anyone here said that those girls were sluts? And just to be clear for a second here we're calling cases without convictions rapes? I just want to be clear for the future.

Yes I agree that there are complex reasons for the way that women and sexuality are viewed in society and that this attitude of "1 in 4 can't be true" with the undertone of false accusation that plagues the rape survivor is a manifestation of that.

Where to start? Lets start by examining and reevaluating our assumptions.

People are taken aback by the stats but often when they're told the criteria are surprised it's not much higher. If we're including a pinch of the arse or a girl grinding against a guy on a dancefloor as well as rapes then the numbers are meaningless.

Trudiha

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Who are you talking about? I've never heard any of the above, sounds like you've got a twisted imagination or you've fallen for some radical feminist propaganda

No, I've worked in a rape crisis centre and I've worked with abusers. The thing that still shocks me to the core is that most rapist don't think that they've done anything wrong, most don't think that they are rapists.

smcgiff

Trudiha wrote: »

The thing that still shocks me to the core is that most rapist don't think that they've done anything wrong, most don't think that they are rapists.

I call shenanigans on that. At a stretch I might believe they SAY it, but that's not to say they believe that.

sbsquarepants

Trudiha wrote: »

No, I've worked in a rape crisis centre and I've worked with abusers. The thing that still shocks me to the core is that most rapist don't think that they've done anything wrong, most don't think that they are rapists.

You're going to have to explain that one for me

Three Seasons

Trudiha wrote: »

One of the most toxic parts of rape culture is the reinforcement of the myths around people who are raped. Every single time that a list of things that women should or shouldn't do to avoid rape is trotted out, it makes space for rapists to excuse their behaviour and evade conviction. The vast majority of rapes are carried out by men known to their victims and it makes no odds to them what the woman is wearing or where she has been.

Why are rapists held in such low regard, even lower than murderers and torturers if we live in a "rape culture"?

Surely in a "rape culture" rape would be encouraged. I don't recall being advised to rape anyone.

Listen, some people give advice, some of it is good and some of it is bad but usually they have your safety in mind. They aren't focused on blaming people for being raped, they are focused on preventing rapes from occurring.

Trudiha

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

is women groping men also a part of rape culture?

or is rape culture just something men do to women

I don't think for a second that rape culture is something that men do to women. I think that most of society spews out nonsense that reinforces myths around rape that creates rape culture. I think that the vast majority of men are against rape and sexual violence of all kinds and don't see that victim blaming and rapist myths lead to increased sexual violence.

Rosy Posy

suicide_circus wrote: »

if someone is raped, 100% of the blame goes to the perpetrator but to deny that by taking certain precautions, a woman can reduce her chances of being raped is silly and irresponsible. its not rape culture, its common sense culture.

If a virgin is dragged down an alley and raped at knifepoint then 100% of the blame goes on the perpetrator.

What about if she has been drinking or taking drugs?

What if she is wearing revealing clothing?

What if she has had one night stands?

What if she was kissing the guy but then decided she didn't want to have sex?

In these cases she will be judged by the community, and in a legal case of the rapists word against the victim, the case will be thrown out.

For all those 'what about the menz' this equally applies to a male victim which I believe to be even more underreported.

Trudiha

Three Seasons wrote: »

Why are rapists held in such low regard, even lower than murderers and torturers if we live in a "rape culture"?

Some rapists are presented as sub-human, almost demon like, this leads to the myth that men we know not to be demons can't rape and this stops most rapists being convinced. Some rapists are held in very low regard, other rapists are seen as just having been a bit pushy after a few drinks.

Surely in a "rape culture" rape would be encouraged. I don't recall being advised to rape anyone.

Of course you haven't, if it was as simple as that we wouldn't have a problem. What you have been socialised to think is that rape is something carried out in dark alleys by the worst kind of men against sluts who were asking for it by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, wearing clothes that stopped the bad man being able to help himself.

Listen, some people give advice, some of it is good and some of it is bad but usually they have your safety in mind. They aren't focused on blaming people for being raped, they are focused on preventing rapes from occurring.

Here's the thing, all kinds of women get raped, wearing all kinds of things. The clothes have nothing to do with it. Suggesting that the victim could have done something to avoid the rape is blaming the victim and taking responsibility away from the rapists.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Trudiha wrote: »

I don't think for a second that rape culture is something that men do to women. I think that most of society spews out nonsense that reinforces myths around rape that creates rape culture. I think that the vast majority of men are against rape and sexual violence of all kinds and don't see that victim blaming and rapist myths lead to increased sexual violence.

fine, but is women groping men part of 'rape culture' ?