The sex myth

Uriel.

...

Ray Palmer

Date rape drug myth:

How often have we heard somebody say their drink of friends drink was spiked? Yet the rape crisis centre came out and said they have yet to find a case where a date rape drug has been used and said alcohol is the real danger.

I am sure people will come out and say it happened to a friend that they didn't drink that much but were suddenly plastered so it must have been a spiked drink. Yet alcohol can have a sudden impact on a small amount dependent of what the person ate and drank in the last 24 hours.

So what is likely? Person is the first person to have a recorded instance of a date rape drug in Ireland or they got drunk as they have been on batter for a few days?

Three Seasons

Trudiha wrote: »

To be honest, I don't have to go far out of my way to find fault with a society in which so many women are raped or suffer sexual violence. I don't have to go far out of my way to be offended by the idea that this world is far from ideal and that there is nothing we can do about it. If we changed our attitudes towards sexual violence, less of it would happen. If we changed out attitudes about where women can walk and what they can wear, more rapists would be convinced and there would be fewer rapes.

I find it frustrating to hear, over and over again from seemingly decent people that rape is wrong but that some women are more rapable than others and we just have to accept that.

Can you clarify what it means to be more
Rapable?

Standman

The term 'rape culture' is an irritating buzz-phrase that needlessly polarizes people who might otherwise agree with each other.

Trudiha

Three Seasons wrote: »

Can you clarify what it means to be more
Rapable?

I can't see any real point in that. All I'm seeing is a bunch of men who don't seem to have any investment in changing the status quo. It's like being in a room with a bunch of rednecks, shouting 'racism, what racism?

Czarcasm

Three Seasons wrote: »

Can you clarify what it means to be more
Rapable?

I imagine what she means is that some women are classed as "asking" to be raped or assaulted given their behaviour or the way they carry themselves or their appearance.

wetfoot

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

And what relevance does this have to your average non-rapist?

I think the Steubenville case is a very good example of rape culture. The first thing to remember is that the perpetrators were examples of your average high school student. There is nothing particularly evil or different about them. They, like their peers used social media, were interested in sports and were also very popular, not only with their friends but also young women and their teachers.

These same young men thought it appropriate to take an extremely drunk young girl from party to party, sexual assault her, rape her and publicise it via social media. The only consequence of this behaviour in their minds was the kudos they received from their friends for being a pair of studs. At no point did any of those young men stop and think that they were doing anything wrong. The very fact that they described their behaviour while it was happening on social media proves that.

The case was only brought to the attention of the media via a female blogger who had seen the social media activity of that night. She has since been subject to appalling abuse as has the victim of the attack. Mostly from other young women who feel she asked for it, should have been grateful to get the attention from those young men and has ruined the lives of promising, popular students.

On the day of the verdict, the Fox and CNN reporters were nearly in tears about those boys and the loss of their futures. The outpouring of support for the perpetrators and the outpouring of vitriol against their victim is a perfect example of rape culture.

Uriel.

hmmm

Does The Gentleman's Club's Thread "tGC Easy on the Eye Thread"


classify as being a component of the rape culture? :pac:

suicide_circus

just so I'm clear, promoting caution and awareness to potential threats is the same as blaming a victim when something happens to them? is that right?

Czarcasm

Standman wrote: »

The term 'rape culture' is an irritating buzz-phrase that needlessly polarizes people who might otherwise agree with each other.

This exactly. It's the same as the "slut walk" nonsense- their intention being to "take the power out of the word" "slut".

A rapist isn't going to give a shìte about what society chooses to call their behaviour, much less what society chooses to call their victims, or "survivors" is the new buzzword apparently.

K-9

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

No, no, no. It's not 'attitudes' that cause rape, it's rapists. Someone thinking walking a dodgy area on your own is not a good idea (for men or women) does not create rapists, murderers or muggers. You are really not the best person to be working in a rape crisis centre.



Never heard anyone say that

While I'd agree to an extent, some attitudes certainly don't help. The "she's asking for it" type one if a women wears short skirts, low tops thing. The Sunday Tribune did a survey a few years back before it closed and that attitude was still very prevalent among teenagers, of both sexes.

You'd think in this day age it would be nearly extinct, but nope. The Listowel case is another example, where all types of slurs were thrown at the girl.

kylith

Uriel. wrote: »

hmmm

Does The Gentleman's Club's Thread "tGC Easy on the Eye Thread"


classify as being a component of the rape culture? :pac:

Only if TLL's 'Who makes you drool?' does.

Henlars67

wetfoot wrote: »

I think the Steubenville case is a very good example of rape culture. The first thing to remember is that the perpetrators were examples of your average high school student. There is nothing particularly evil or different about them. They, like their peers used social media, were interested in sports and were also very popular, not only with their friends but also young women and their teachers.

These same young men thought it appropriate to take an extremely drunk young girl from party to party, sexual assault her, rape her and publicise it via social media. The only consequence of this behaviour in their minds was the kudos they received from their friends for being a pair of studs. At no point did any of those young men stop and think that they were doing anything wrong. The very fact that they described their behaviour while it was happening on social media proves that.

The case was only brought to the attention of the media via a female blogger who had seen the social media activity of that night. She has since been subject to appalling abuse as has the victim of the attack. Mostly from other young women who feel she asked for it, should have been grateful to get the attention from those young men and has ruined the lives of promising, popular students.

On the day of the verdict, the Fox and CNN reporters were nearly in tears about those boys and the loss of their futures. The outpouring of support for the perpetrators and the outpouring of vitriol against their victim is a perfect example of rape culture.

Not really the same as laughing off a slap on the arse though, is it?

K-9

Sleepy wrote: »

Working in bars throughout my college years I'd have been groped, pinched or felt up on a weekly basis. Once I even had a woman walk up to me and unzip my fly observing that there was nothing I could do about it without dropping the large stacks of glasses I was holding at the time. TBH, I found that one amusing even if she wasn't someone I'd have welcomed a sexual advance from. Were I to categorise those incidents as sexual assault, and on the basis of assessment being espoused by some in this thread I should have, I believe I'd be trivialising "real" sexual assault.

But it's an individual thing, just because you view it lightly and don't regard it as assault doesn't mean another man, or indeed a woman has to. That's the point getting missed.

Trudiha

Wow, in a thread that become about rape, some men find it acceptable to post links to places where it's encouraged to objectify women amid claims there's no rape culture.

tritium

Trudiha wrote: »

I can't see any real point in that. All I'm seeing is a bunch of men who don't seem to have any investment in changing the status quo. It's like being in a room with a bunch of rednecks, shouting 'racism, what racism?

As I'm sure you realise, when you resort to name calling and abuse it usually means you've lost the intellectual argument.....,,


The reality is many posters here, myself included, disagree with you as to what the status quo actually is. As I noted earlier, if you're looking to be offended it's usually possible to find it. polarising terms such as "rape culture" will always invite a backlash, since there is tremendous controversy, even within feminist groups around it. That said I think most posters, while disagreeing with you have given fairly cogent arguments for their position

Gbear

Czarcasm wrote: »

One expression in common everyday use that I personally find particularly disgusting and trivialising of the act of rape is the use of the word "frape", as in somebody else having accessed your account on facebook and posting on your behalf.

The casual use of the word rape in itself in everyday common language use is trivialising the act of rape.

I disagree with this.

Context forms an important part of language and people are generally able to understand that.

For example:

A soccer commentator talks about how a winger got the better of a fullback
"He absolutely murdered him there". No problem.

Conversely, if he said
"He absolutely raped him there", cue ****storm.

The former doesn't trivialise or condone murder. The latter doesn't do the same to rape.

Context is more important than the word used. The commentator could've replaced the words "rape" or "murder" with an inaudible grunt and we'd still know what he meant.

There's a more general problem of people trying very hard to get offended by things that are completely trivial. That in turn trivialises actual problems, like rape.

Standman

Trudiha wrote: »

Wow, in a thread that become about rape, some men find it acceptable to post links to places where it's encouraged to objectify women amid claims there's no rape culture.

This is quite a silly post.

wetfoot

Czarcasm wrote: »

This exactly. It's the same as the "slut walk" nonsense- their intention being to "take the power out of the word" "slut".

A rapist isn't going to give a shìte about what society chooses to call their behaviour, much less what society chooses to call their victims, or "survivors" is the new buzzword apparently.

Survivors isn't so much a buzzword but an example of the power of language. Certainly in domestic violence circles, women who have experienced abuse often prefer to self identify as survivors as opposed to victims. It suggests not only an aspect of strength but also choice and for many women it's the first choice they have been free to make on their own terms.

We talk all the time about people surviving extreme events, whether that's an accident or an attempt on their life or other such trauma. Personally I think it's an appropriate term to use as it suggests there is life after abuse.

I also think its worth pointing out given some of the comments on this topic that it might be appropriate for men to listen when women tell them there is such a thing as rape culture. It doesn't mean we're calling you rapists, but we are telling you something important that we feel and you can make a difference to.

kylith

Trudiha wrote: »

Wow, in a thread that become about rape, some men find it acceptable to post links to places where it's encouraged to objectify women amid claims there's no rape culture.

Are you talking about Uriel's link to TGC? There's an exact counterpoint for that thread in The Ladies Lounge. Is that also encouraging objectification?

Having flicked through the thread in TGC I can't see anything that could count as remotely 'rape culture'. Lots of remarks about beauty and grace, but nothing I'd find at all disrespectful or objectifying, and there's probably less flesh on show than in WMYD in TLL.

ahnowbrowncow

Trudiha wrote: »

Wow, in a thread that become about rape, some men find it acceptable to post links to places where it's encouraged to objectify women amid claims there's no rape culture.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055192287

Oh no, women are objectifying men.

Can you have a discussion without using the phrase rape culture or do you just resort to it whenever you can't think of a counter argument?

tritium

Trudiha wrote: »

Wow, in a thread that become about rape, some men find it acceptable to post links to places where it's encouraged to objectify women amid claims there's no rape culture.

Sigh, there you go looking for offence again. As someone already pointed out the ladies lounge has a similar "who makes you drool" thread. Are you twice as outraged yet?

There's nothing wrong (it's probably even healthy) with fancying someone if the opposite, or indeed same, sex. I'm sure you can find a few posters whose language in tgc you object to, and to be honest so could I in the ladies lounge. The doesn't make the thread evil

Trudiha

tritium wrote: »

The reality is many posters here, myself included, disagree with you as to what the status quo actually is. As I noted earlier, if you're looking to be offended it's usually possible to find it. polarising terms such as "rape culture" will always invite a backlash, since there is tremendous controversy, even within feminist groups around it. That said I think most posters, while disagreeing with you have given fairly cogent arguments for their position

What part of what the statue quo is do you disagree with, do you not think that women are raped? Are you suggesting that I shouldn't be offended by rape or that I shouldn't be offended by a society that allows rape to happen and rapist to get away with it?

I can see that many men find the term 'rape culture' offensive and I guess that's because it implies that rape doesn't happen in a vacuum, that it might have something to do with the ideas held by many men rather that just rapists. I can see why that might make people uncomfortable but it doesn't mean that rape culture doesn't exist. I can see how we can all perceive things differently, depending on our starting point, I have mine and you have yours, but do you not find it just a bit strange that a discussion about rape turns into a discussion about what victims should wear and how they should behave? If I were to suggest that a rapist should wear a tshirt saying 'rapist' on nights he feels like raping, would you really think that was a sane argument to put forward?

Trudiha

kylith wrote: »

Are you talking about Uriel's link to TGC? There's an exact counterpoint for that thread in The Ladies Lounge. Is that also encouraging objectification?

Having flicked through the thread in TGC I can't see anything that could count as remotely 'rape culture'. Lots of remarks about beauty and grace, but nothing I'd find at all disrespectful or objectifying, and there's probably less flesh on show than in WMYD in TLL.

The objectification of men doesn't lead to the kind of fear that curtails mens' lives. Have you every heard a mammy telling her teenage son to cover his body in case he encounters a woman unable to control herself?

shopaholic01

This thread is one of the most bizarre I've seen on Boards.


I don't believe having your bum touch is sexual assault. By that definition a lot of males and females commit sexual assault every weekend.

Yes, groping is annoying, but a simply F*ck off stops it. I've had it happen and it never once occured to me that I had been sexually assaulted. I can only imagine how a guard would react if I were to report it.

It's dangerous to equate this to sexual assault, or to indicate that it may lead to rape. It demishes the impact sexual assault has on a victim, and could ultimately lead to these crimes being taken less seriously.

It's interesting that in Irish law a woman cannot commit rape, just sexual assault. It immediately implies that a sexual crime committed by a woman is 'less serious' than one with a male perpetrator.

I don't believe Ireland has a 'rape culture', neither do I know any man who condones rape, finds it amusing or blames the victim.

If an alien were to land and read this thread they would be likely to assume that men and women are a separate species intent on harming each other.

shopaholic01

Trudiha wrote: »

The objectification of men doesn't lead to the kind of fear that curtails mens' lives. Have you every heard a mammy telling her teenage son to cover his body in case he encounters a woman unable to control herself?

No, I've never heard it said to a daughter either.

Your post suggests that men can't control their sexual urges and randomly rape women on a whim.

Is that the result of the 'rape culture'?

Sleepy

Trudiha wrote: »

You're not looking out for the victim, you're simply trying to change the victim to one that's more exposed or vulnerable. Cover up the woman you know and the attacker will go and find one with a shorter skirt or who's a bit drunker. What do you think is the logical conclusion of this, that women are all held under lock and key?

Following that logic, any woman who attends a self defence classes with the idea of preparing herself to beat the daylights out of a potential rapist is now contributing to Rape Culture and a Rape Apologist :rolleyes:

Rosy Posy wrote: »

sbsquarepants wrote:

So what are you supposed to do? Breathalise every man or woman you score with? If two people meet in a nightclub and wake up naked the following morning with no memory of what happened (as has happened me several times and i'm sure happens most people at some stage) what crime has taken place?

I guess it depends on whether one person was significantly drunker, and whether consent was obtained.

One person being "significantly drunker" would only qualify here if one of the parties was nearly sober or the other was passed out unconscious tbh.

Whether consent was obtained is going to be very difficult to figure out in a culture as drink obsessed as ours. Without going down lunacy lane and suggesting everyone should obtain consent in writing prior to any sexual activity how do we figure out if consent was given by both parties in the situation sbsquarepants outlines? Video every sexual encounter from start to finish?

TBH, I could almost understand someone who had regular drunken sex installing a camera and videoing every encounter without informing their partners as protection from such claims. I'm not saying I'd condone it by any means but I'd understand their line of thinking.

Trudiha wrote: »

I find it frustrating to hear, over and over again from seemingly decent people that rape is wrong but that some women are more rapable than others and we just have to accept that.

If we define "rapable" as meaning "likely to be raped" then yes, some women are far more rapable than others: young women who drink to excess, prostitutes, drug users and those who pay no heed to their personal safety are all statistically more likely to be raped than a woman who doesn't engage in such risk-taking behaviour.

It's called reality and if you can't accept it, there's a word for that too: delusional.

K-9 wrote: »

But it's an individual thing, just because you view it lightly and don't regard it as assault doesn't mean another man, or indeed a woman has to. That's the point getting missed.

No, it doesn't. But if they genuinely think it's as serious as an assault as a rape, they clearly think shoving past someone on the street is the same as hitting them with a baseball bat.

Trudiha wrote: »

I can't see any real point in that. All I'm seeing is a bunch of men who don't seem to have any investment in changing the status quo. It's like being in a room with a bunch of rednecks, shouting 'racism, what racism?

So men can't have any investment in changing the status quo?

The status quo that there are rapists in the world? Nope, have a stake in that one in the beautiful shape of a 4 year old daughter. She not only be taught to avoid risk taking but will also be taught every vulnerable location on the human body and how best to strike it.

She'll also be taught the reality that no matter how many slut walks there are, no matter how hysterically the English language gets mis-used and no matter how many genuinely positive ad campaigns like the old "no means no" ones there are: there will still be rapists in this world and those rapists will still consider some women to be easier targets than others.

tritium

Trudiha wrote: »

I can see that many men find the term 'rape culture' offensive and I guess that's because it implies that rape doesn't happen in a vacuum, that it might have something to do with the ideas held by many men rather that just rapists.

Ah, so now it's ideas held by men rather than by society. I think I see where this is going and to be honest it's not a very nice or balanced place!

I can see why that might make people uncomfortable but it doesn't mean that rape culture doesn't exist. I can see how we can all perceive things differently, depending on our starting point, I have mine and you have yours, but do you not find it just a bit strange that a discussion about rape turns into a discussion about what victims should wear and how they should behave? If I were to suggest that a rapist should wear a tshirt saying 'rapist' on nights he feels like raping, would you really think that was a sane argument to put forward?

if you go back through the thread, I think you'll find you were one of the principal actors in bringing up and sustaining the point about dress and behaviour

kylith

Trudiha wrote: »

The objectification of men doesn't lead to the kind of fear that curtails mens' lives. Have you every heard a mammy telling her teenage son to cover his body in case he encounters a woman unable to control herself?

Oh, so it's ok to objectify men because women can't physically overpower them? Do men not feel intimidated when harassed by women?

Pug160

A myth, in my opinion is that because we now live in a very sexualised society, most people are having sex, and more than ever before. I think that is false and there's a possibility that less people are having sex now, and the truth is that it's a minority of men who are getting most of the girls.