The sex myth

--Kaiser--

Trudiha wrote: »

Of course you haven't, if it was as simple as that we wouldn't have a problem. What you have been socialised to think is that rape is something carried out in dark alleys by the worst kind of men against sluts who were asking for it by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, wearing clothes that stopped the bad man being able to help himself.

Lies, lies and bull****. I have not been socialised to think anything anything of the sort, nor has anyone I know. I should be offended by your batshit insane assumptions but really I pity you and the extremely poor opinion you obviously have of ALL men

wandatowell

tritium wrote: »

I'm assuming you'd be equally quick to pull up any woman who slapped one of your male friends on the ass?

Like I've said earlier yes I would. Not that I have experienced it tbh

Rosy Posy

Rosy Posy wrote: »

If a virgin is dragged down an alley and raped at knifepoint then 100% of the blame goes on the perpetrator.

What about if she has been drinking or taking drugs?

What if she is wearing revealing clothing?

What if she has had one night stands?

What if she was kissing the guy but then decided she didn't want to have sex?

In these cases she will be judged by the community, and in a legal case of the rapists word against the victim, the case will be thrown out.

For all those 'what about the menz' this equally applies to a male victim which I believe to be even more underreported.

You're conflating so much there to come up with a ridiculous answer. It's the rapist's fault.
The reason the other stuff ever comes up is in non- or less-violent cases where there is little evidence other that one persons' word against another and it's a matter of criminal guilt or not.

Three Seasons

Trudiha wrote: »

Some rapists are presented as sub-human, almost demon like, this leads to the myth that men we know not to be demons can't rape and this stops most rapists being convinced. Some rapists are held in very low regard, other rapists are seen as just having been a bit pushy after a few drinks.

Of course you haven't, if it was as simple as that we wouldn't have a problem. What you have been socialised to think is that rape is something carried out in dark alleys by the worst kind of men against sluts who were asking for it by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, wearing clothes that stopped the bad man being able to help himself.

Here's the thing, all kinds of women get raped, wearing all kinds of things. The clothes have nothing to do with it. Suggesting that the victim could have done something to avoid the rape is blaming the victim and taking responsibility away from the rapists.

I haven't been socialised to think rapes only over down dark alleys, I'm aware there are a wide variety of cases.

I never claimed women only get raped wearing revealing clothing. This seems to be a myth that men think only women wearing revealing clothing get raped.

smcgiff

Trudiha wrote: »

. Suggesting that the victim could have done something to avoid the rape is blaming the victim and taking responsibility away from the rapists.

At the risk of being castigated as a rapist apologist. That's very naive.

Rapists can be opportunists and will target girls that are vulnerable. Was the isolated, drunk, revealingly dressed girl asked to be raped. No, of course not.

But, neither was the person that walks around O'Connell street talking into the iphone asking to be robbed.

Advising people to be sensible is not taking away responsibility from the rapist/robber.

Trudiha

smcgiff wrote: »

I call shenanigans on that. At a stretch I might believe they SAY it, but that's not to say they believe that.

Julian Assange is a good example, his legal defence team have admitted, on his behalf, that he did penetrated women who were asleep and therefore not in a position to give consent. He doesn't think that he raped them.

The two teenage Steubenville football players convinced of rape took photos of their victim being assaulted which they sent to their friends and their friends passed on. That's not the behaviour of someone doing something that they think is criminal or seriously wrong.

xOxSinéadxOx

Some of the attitudes in this thread are shocking tbh.

sbsquarepants

Trudiha wrote: »

Here's the thing, all kinds of women get raped, wearing all kinds of things. The clothes have nothing to do with it. Suggesting that the victim could have done something to avoid the rape is blaming the victim and taking responsibility away from the rapists.

No it's not. If you were wearing only stockings and suspenders in the dingiest lane in Dublin, it's still the rapists fault. But telling women they should feel free to frequent Dublin laneways wearing their finest lingere and sure it'll be grand is just stupid.
What you should be able to do, and where you should be able to go are not the same thing as what you are able to do and where you are able to go.
I tell my daughter not to get drunk when she's staying in her friends house, fearing that some dirty bastard youngfella will take advantage of her in her drunken state. That's very good advice if you ask me - and should the worst happen and that very scenario takes place it will be entirely his fault, not hers. But maybe, just maybe if she wasn't drunk she would have been better able to protect herself - leave the house, call for help or something like that, and that's what i want - i want her to avoid the situation entirely. If that means curtailing some sense of entitlement to get shít faced and wander around half naked without being bothered then so be it. That is what we call reality!

--Kaiser--

Trudiha wrote: »

Julian Assange is a good example, his legal defence team have admitted, on his behalf, that he did penetrated women who were asleep and therefore not in a position to give consent. He doesn't think that he raped them.

The two teenage Steubenville football players convinced of rape took photos of their victim being assaulted which they sent to their friends and their friends passed on. That's not the behaviour of someone doing something that they think is criminal or seriously wrong.

And what relevance does this have to your average non-rapist?

Rosy Posy

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Let's start by examining why you assume there is a 'rape culture' based on....the fact that some men are rapists...and **** all else really. You might as well say that black people have a 'murder culture' based on the fact that some black people are murderers

You don't seem to be taking in what we are saying. Rape culture is something that is created by broader social attitudes held by men and women that

a) lead people to believe that non consensual sex outside of a contrived violent assault by a stranger is not rape. This can turn people who are young, horny and possibly drunk into rapists. I don't think that all rapists are inherently evil and different to the rest of us, but that some of them are created by the warped attitude to sexuality that pervades our society. The Steubenville case is a prime example.

b) encourage victim blaming which causes rape survivors to hold on to a sense of shame and discourages them from reporting assaults. The Listowel rape sympathisers exemplify this.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1217/125528-listowel/

Trudiha

smcgiff wrote: »

Advising people to be sensible is not taking away responsibility from the rapist/robber.

It is. It suggests that the sensible don't get raped and that if only the victim had behaved in a different way, she wouldn't be a victim. That's suggesting that the victim had control over the actions of her attacker or was responsible for the actions of her attacker.

rox5

antodeco wrote: »

That an empty packet of crisps and a hair bobbin is perfect contraception

Jesus, is this a joke, or have people actually tried this method?? :eek:

--Kaiser--

Trudiha wrote: »

It is. It suggests that the sensible don't get raped and that if only the victim had behaved in a different way, she wouldn't be a victim. That's suggesting that the victim had control over the actions of her attacker or was responsible for the actions of her attacker.

Oh FFS. If I walk around <insert name of bad area here> waving doezens of 50 euro notes around is it my fault should I get mugged? Of course it's not. You can hope to live in a world where a woman can walk around stocious drunk and not be prey to abusers but, hey, that's not the real world

Rosy Posy

smcgiff wrote: »

At the risk of being castigated as a rapist apologist. That's very naive.

Rapists can be opportunists and will target girls that are vulnerable. Was the isolated, drunk, revealingly dressed girl asked to be raped. No, of course not.

But, neither was the person that walks around O'Connell street talking into the iphone asking to be robbed.

Advising people to be sensible is not taking away responsibility from the rapist/robber.

This is a stop gap measure. In the broader sense it is saying 'make sure it's not you that gets raped but that other drunker, less dressed girl', when we should be looking deeper to try and solve the social problems that lead people to rape.

Trudiha

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Oh FFS. If I walk around <insert name of bad area here> waving doezens of 50 euro notes around is it my fault should I get mugged? Of course it's not. You can hope to live in a world where a woman can walk around stocious drunk and not be prey to abusers but, hey, that's not the real world

Equating a woman's body with a fifty euro note is part of rape culture.

smcgiff

Trudiha wrote: »

Julian Assange is a good example, his legal defence team have admitted, on his behalf, that he did penetrated women who were asleep and therefore not in a position to give consent. He doesn't think that he raped them.

The two teenage Steubenville football players convinced of rape took photos of their victim being assaulted which they sent to their friends and their friends passed on. That's not the behaviour of someone doing something that they think is criminal or seriously wrong.

Assange is in the middle of a trial - he'll put forward as best a defence he can to mitigate his sentence. Of course he's going to say he doesn't think it was rape.

Your logic is flawed re the two teenage boys. They would have known it was wrong, but thought it would be accepted amongst their close circle of friends. Two different things.

Besides, in your post above you said MOST - I don't believe that for a minute.

Rosy Posy

Rosy Posy wrote: »

a) lead people to believe that non consensual sex outside of a contrived violent assault by a stranger is not rape. This can turn people who are young, horny and possibly drunk into rapists. I don't think that all rapists are inherently evil and different to the rest of us, but that some of them are created by the warped attitude to sexuality that pervades our society. The Steubenville case is a prime example.

The Steubenville case is an example of scumbags, corruption and the amazing cult of "stardom" around any kind of sports "star" in America.

b) encourage victim blaming which causes rape survivors to hold on to a sense of shame and discourages them from reporting assaults. The Listowel rape sympathisers exemplify this.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1217/125528-listowel/

All I can remember about that is anyone who knew about it shaking their heads in disbelief. This is the county that elects the Healy-Raes let's not forget.

sbsquarepants

rox5 wrote: »

Jesus, is this a joke, or have people actually tried this method?? :eek:

I use the pringles tubes myself:)

--Kaiser--

Trudiha wrote: »

Equating a woman's body with a fifty euro note is part of rape culture.

Oh good Jesus ****ing Christ! It's an analogy! Are you capable of reasoned debate at all? Or are you just trolling?

Rosy Posy

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

fine, but is women groping men part of 'rape culture' ?

Yes. It's about a culture where there is a lack of respect for personal boundaries. I find that that ladette culture of 'if you can't beat them join them' deplorable. It has done nothing for the feminist cause, or the humanist cause for that matter.

Three Seasons

Trudiha wrote: »

It is. It suggests that the sensible don't get raped and that if only the victim had behaved in a different way, she wouldn't be a victim. That's suggesting that the victim had control over the actions of her attacker or was responsible for the actions of her attacker.

It's like talking to a brick wall at this stage.

They are just looking out for their safety, they aren't blaming anyone other than the rapist.

I get the impression there is some sort of guilt complex going on in your head.

Michael D Not Higgins

Three Seasons wrote: »

we shouldn't expect no one to Ron either, that's why we should lick our front doors.

Sorry to make light of this thoroughly derailed thread but

haha autocorrect fail.

Rosy Posy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You're conflating so much there to come up with a ridiculous answer. It's the rapist's fault.
The reason the other stuff ever comes up is in non- or less-violent cases where there is little evidence other that one persons' word against another and it's a matter of criminal guilt or not.

Of course it's the rapists fault. But trust me, our society and our communities do not see it that way.

smcgiff

Trudiha wrote: »

It is. It suggests that the sensible don't get raped and that if only the victim had behaved in a different way, she wouldn't be a victim. That's suggesting that the victim had control over the actions of her attacker or was responsible for the actions of her attacker.

It's not. Opportunist Rapists exist. It is no fault of the person raped that that opportunist rapists exist. They have no control over the actions of the rapist, only the rapist has control over their actions.

Trudiha

smcgiff wrote: »

Assange is in the middle of a trial - he'll put forward as best a defence he can to mitigate his sentence. Of course he's going to say he doesn't think it was rape.

Your logic is flawed re the two teenage boys. They would have known it was wrong, but thought it would be accepted amongst their close circle of friends. Two different things.

Besides, in your post above you said MOST - I don't believe that for a minute.

I said that it was my experience with most of the abusers I've worked with. I didn't claim to have worked with all abusers. Of course, I can't look into anyone's soul and tell you want they are really thinking but I'm fairly experienced in calling abusers on their behaviour and I honestly think that the majority of abusers who've told me that they didn't think they were doing anything wrong were sincere.

Most abusers aren't psychopaths, most have a level of empathy, many have sisters, wives, lovers or daughters who they wouldn't want to see raped. Many think that other rapists are gob****es. They think that they aren't rapists because ...fill in the blank supplied by rape culture...

Rosy Posy

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Of course it's the rapists fault. But trust me, our society and our communities do not see it that way.

Oh well when you put it like that...

smcgiff

Trudiha wrote: »

I said that it was my experience with most of the abusers I've worked with. I didn't claim to have worked with all abusers.

And I was only pointing out that your assertions were not what I expect to be the general case.

However, you mentioned two cases were you believed the rapist didn't think they were rapists or doing wrong and I think I've debunked your assertions. You might not agree with my analysis of course.

Trudiha

Three Seasons wrote: »

It's like talking to a brick wall at this stage.

They are just looking out for their safety, they aren't blaming anyone other than the rapist.

You're not looking out for the victim, you're simply trying to change the victim to one that's more exposed or vulnerable. Cover up the woman you know and the attacker will go and find one with a shorter skirt or who's a bit drunker. What do you think is the logical conclusion of this, that women are all held under lock and key?

sbsquarepants

Trudiha wrote: »

It is. It suggests that the sensible don't get raped and that if only the victim had behaved in a different way, she wouldn't be a victim. That's suggesting that the victim had control over the actions of her attacker or was responsible for the actions of her attacker.

You're deliberately missing the point.

If i bling myself up and hang around some dodgy part of town and then get robbed, it is the fault of the robber but most people (quite sensibly) will say i shouldn't have done that, and whereas it doesn't clear the robber of guilt or lessen his guilt in anyway - i did put myself in harms way and that is a stupid thing to do. The same analogy holds for rape, murder, mugging, assaults, attack by wild animals you name it.
It is sensible to try to avoid harmfull situations - anyone who has a problem with this advice is deluded! We all have to look out for ourselves, putting ourselves in the way of danger because we should be able to is mad!
I should be able to move to afghanistan and open a deli called uncle sams star spangled tasty treats - but i wouldn't because it would be dangerous. Surely you can see that point?

tritium

Dammit, enough, this is just tiring. Like another poster said it's like talking to a brick wall. Just using the phrase rape culture over and over won't make it any truer. Frankly it's disrespectful to real victims of rape to use them to push an agenda.

Rape culture as it's being used here is little more than a social engineering term to push a particular viewpoint and frankly the way it's been used is patronising, demeaning and wrong. It's little more than an attempt to perpetuate the all men are potential rapists stereotype that has poisoned so much debate around these issues and kept a slew of academic grant money rolling in. It's a topic that has already received an appropriate academic reposte from feminists such as Christina Hoff.