The sex myth

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

Clearly you did... Rape Culture!

You hate the term but you don't know what it means. Alright then.

Three Seasons

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yep, which is why it's best to err on the side of caution and not touch strangers.

Well I certainly wouldn't think it's wrong for anyone to tap me on the arm to get my attention. I assume you don't have an issue with that.

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

You hate the term but you don't know what it means. Alright then.

Rape culture is a concept used to describe a culture in which rape and sexual violence are common and in which prevalent attitudes, norms, practices, and media normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.

A slap on the ass IS NOT excusing, tolerating or condoning rape!

Lingua Franca

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yep, which is why it's best to err on the side of caution and not touch strangers in a sexual manner.

Clearer?

B0jangles

Just wanted to say I agree with everything you're saying Lingua

sbsquarepants

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Yep, which is why it's best to err on the side of caution and not touch strangers.

I don't! I think it's a bit sleazy to be honest, i personally would never pinch a strangers bum or anything like that. But i see it all the time, and i've had it done to me countless times and not really minded. In absolute terms it's not that bad a thing to do. I think your experience has clouded your judgement on the issue tbh.

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

A slap on the ass IS NOT excusing, tolerating or condoning rape!

No.

But it is excusing, tolerating and condoning sexual violence.

Here's some more.

Examples of Rape Culture:

Blaming the victim (“She asked for it!”)
Trivializing sexual assault (“Boys will be boys!”)
Sexually explicit jokes
Tolerance of sexual harassment
Inflating false rape report statistics
Publicly scrutinizing a victim’s dress, mental state, motives, and history
Gratuitous gendered violence in movies and television
Defining “manhood” as dominant and sexually aggressive
Defining “womanhood” as submissive and sexually passive
Pressure on men to “score”
Pressure on women to not appear “cold”
Assuming only promiscuous women get raped
Assuming that men don’t get raped or that only “weak” men get raped
Refusing to take rape accusations seriously
Teaching women to avoid getting raped instead of teaching men not to rape

IM0

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Clearer?

so what about if they have a fetish for elbows? then thats sexual assault is it

B0jangles

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't! I think it's a bit sleazy to be honest, i personally would never pinch a strangers bum or anything like that. But i see it all the time, and i've had it done to me countless times and not really minded. In absolute terms it's not that bad a thing to do. I think your experience has clouded your judgement on the issue tbh.

Why does this always happen?

When someone talks about the relationship between unwanted sexual touching and rape culture they are told that saying such things is trivializing actual rape.
When the same person then says they themselves have been raped, then the dismissal switches to them being a damaged person who naturally has a skewed attitude to such matters.

It really is heads I win, tails you lose, isn't it?

smash

Lingua Franca wrote: »

No.

But it is excusing, tolerating and condoning sexual violence.

Violence? If someone slapped your back is it violence? Only if you want it to be...

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Here's some more.

Why did you highlight: Trivializing sexual assault (“Boys will be boys!”) there? Every man here has said they've had women do it to them!

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Tolerance of sexual harassment

"Sexual harassment refers to persistent and unwanted sexual advances"
A slap in jest is generally not persistent. If it was persistent then it's a different matter.

Lingua Franca

Three Seasons wrote: »

tap me on the arm

IM0 wrote: »

so what about if they have a fetish for elbows? then thats sexual assault is it

...no.

Stroking and groping your elbow would be weird as hell, though.


Don't you have a better argument than a strawman?

IM0

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Don't you have a better argument than a strawman?

I was just borrowing your one, sorry you can have it back now

Uriel.

Lingua Franca wrote: »

No, that's assault. Do you really need this explained to you?

A slap in the chest is assault... leading to... ?
A slap in the face is assault... leading to... ?
according to you...
A slap on the ass is sexual assault...leading to.... RAPE.

Lingua Franca

smash wrote: »

Violence? If someone slapped your back is it violence? Only if you want it to be...

Err, yes.

Why did you highlight: Trivializing sexual assault (“Boys will be boys!”) there? Every man here has said they've had women do it to them!

Because you're trivialising sexual assault. I've addressed the same behaviours from women already.

"Sexual harassment refers to persistent and unwanted sexual advances"
A slap in jest is generally not persistent. If it was persistent then it's a different matter.

I see you like wikipedia. Other sources are available. Most of those say "unwanted sexual advances".

Three Seasons

Lingua Franca wrote: »

No.

But it is excusing, tolerating and condoning sexual violence.

Here's some more.

Giving people advice to reduce their chances of being raped is a good thing, you can call that "rape culture" or whatever you want.

If you teach people to be careful dealing with electrical components in case they are faulty does that mean we are living in an electrocution culture?

Lingua Franca

IM0 wrote: »

I was just borrowing your one, sorry you can have it back now

I didn't have one. You must have picked it up from someone else.

Uriel. wrote: »

A slap in the chest is assault... leading to... ?
A slap in the face is assault... leading to... ?
according to you...
A slap on the ass is sexual assault...leading to.... RAPE.

According to me?

Can either of you guys back up these posts with a quote, please?

B0jangles

Three Seasons wrote: »

Giving people advice to reduce their chances of being raped is a good thing, you can call that "rape culture" or whatever you want.

If you teach people to be careful dealing with electrical components in case they are faulty does that mean we are living in an electrocution culture?

1. Most people are raped in their own homes by people they know. Giving advice about not going out after dark/not wearing revealing clothes or high heels etc etc. do little or nothing to reduce the incidence of rape, they put the onus on the potential victim to change their behaviour.

2. I didn't realise electrical components were conscious, thinking beings acting with intent to cause electrocution.

Bottom line: Rapists are not a mindless force of nature, they are human beings who choose to rape.

Trudiha

Uriel. wrote: »

A slap in the chest is assault... leading to... ?
A slap in the face is assault... leading to... ?
according to you...
A slap on the ass is sexual assault...leading to.... RAPE.

Sexual assault doesn't always lead to rape but an acceptance of sexual assault creates an environment in which rape is more likely to happen. If a young boy (or girl) is given the impression that it's alright to touch, fondle or feel another person's body, without their consent, for their own sexual gratification, they are being given a very messed up idea of what acceptable behaviour is.

suicide_circus

attitudes from a by gone era. there was a time when a firm slap on the behind was totally acceptable, look at James Bond movies or Mad Men.
i think its part of the reason there is a higher incidence of suicide in young men, there are conflicting messages on what a man should be, how he should behave. Phrases like "be a man" "man up" "are you a man or a mouse?" - pressure to act the part but much conflicting direction. Coupled with the denomisation of men in the media and the fact that many women secretly enjoy being dominated by their man in private.

1ZRed

I've had my ass slapped and pinched a few times out by girls. I didn't get the big deal and didn't feel sexually assaulted.

So if it is so, so bad why doesn't it work both ways and for me to be extremely offended?

Uriel.

suicide_circus wrote: »

attitudes from a by gone era. there was a time when a firm slap on the behind was totally acceptable, look at James Bond movies or Mad Men.
i think its part of the reason there is a higher incidence of suicide in young men, there are conflicting messages on what a man should be, how he should behave. Phrases like "be a man" "man up" "are you a man or a mouse?" - pressure to act the part but much conflicting direction. Coupled with the denomisation of men in the media and the fact that many women secretly enjoy being dominated by their man in private.

Are you saying that:

Not being able to slap someone on the ass is a component in suicide?

Uriel.

1ZRed wrote: »

I've had my ass slapped and pinched a few times out by girls. I didn't get the big deal and didn't feel sexually assaulted.

So if it is so, so bad why doesn't it work both ways and for me to be extremely offended?

You should be offended and down the local Garda station.

In all seriousness though, being offended is fine and reasonable response, i just wouldn't be so quick to dump it in there with/as "rape culture"

suicide_circus

Uriel. wrote: »

Are you saying that:

Not being able to slap someone on the ass is a component in suicide?

No but feel free to reread my post and try again

Trudiha

Three Seasons wrote: »

Giving people advice to reduce their chances of being raped is a good thing, you can call that "rape culture" or whatever you want.

No, to put the responsibility for a sexual assault on the victim is part of rape culture. Three Seasons, I'm going to assume that you're a normal man and like most normal men, have managed never to rape anyone. You've seen women in short skirts, bikinis, perhaps even less. I'm going to assume that you've seen drunk women, women who were asleep, maybe even women who've taken drugs. You've probably seen women alone at night. I'm assuming that despite all of that, you've managed not to rape anyone.

Why can't you see that not raping someone is normal behaviour and something that we should expect from all men in all circumstances?

coffee_cake

Uriel. wrote: »

Are you saying that:

Not being able to slap someone on the ass is a component in suicide?

Yes. Women not wanting to be assaulted is directly contributing to male suicide.

Heard it all now

Also find it bemusing that:
"Your argument is wrong because you don't know what real rape is like, you're not a victim"
"I am one"
"Well then your argument is wrong because you're just messed up"
has been the progression so far.
Christ

Uriel.

suicide_circus wrote: »

No but feel free to reread my post and try again

well you said there was a time that a slap on the ass was acceptable and then threw it in with suicide?

Can you explain your view clearer, I just don't see the point behind it - I am not mocking you (yet). Chill.

Uriel.

bluewolf wrote: »

Yes. Women not wanting to be assaulted is directly contributing to male suicide.

Heard it all now

Also find it bemusing that:
"Your argument is wrong because you don't know what real rape is like, you're not a victim"
"I am one"
"Well then your argument is wrong because you're just messed up"
has been the progession so far.
Christ

Interesting. I'd surely like to see the research on that.

coffee_cake

Uriel. wrote: »

Interesting. I'd surely like to see the research on that.

I was agreeing with you and being sarcastic...

Three Seasons

B0jangles wrote: »

1. Most people are raped in their own homes by people they know. Giving advice about not going out after dark/not wearing revealing clothes or high heels etc etc. do little or nothing to reduce the incidence of rape, they put the onus on the potential victim to change their behaviour.

2. I didn't realise electrical components were conscious, thinking beings acting with intent to cause electrocution.

Bottom line: Rapists are not a mindless force of nature, they are human beings who choose to rape.

People are raped and assaulted by strangers, it does happen, there a places I most definitely would not walk through at not as the risk increases of being assaulted. Who said anything about not wearing heels or revealing clothes, that's a narrative in your own head.

One could say by "not teaching" the manufacturers of electrical components not to make faulty components, this is contributing to "electrocution culture" . The emphasis on advising people how to behave around electrical components is "victim blaming" as they are the victim of shoddy workmanship.

suicide_circus

Trudiha wrote: »

No, to put the responsibility for a sexual assault on the victim is part of rape culture. Three Seasons, I'm going to assume that you're a normal man and like most normal men, have managed never to rape anyone. You've seen women in short skirts, bikinis, perhaps even less. I'm going to assume that you've seen drunk women, women who were asleep, maybe even women who've taken drugs. You've probably seen women alone at night. I'm assuming that despite all of that, you've managed not to rape anyone.

Why can't you see that not raping someone is normal behaviour and something that we should expect from all men in all circumstances?

if someone is raped, 100% of the blame goes to the perpetrator but to deny that by taking certain precautions, a woman can reduce her chances of being raped is silly and irresponsible. its not rape culture, its common sense culture.