€116,000 Consultant positions being snubbed

Taco Chips

true wrote: »

+1. And they are the countries which along with the rest of the IMF etc are bailing us out / helping to ensure we can borrow the money to pay the consultants.

The consultants here should work for less than the 100k they would get in a major developed industrialised nuclear power country with economy of scale like the UK or Germany. We certainly cannot afford to pay more than the going rate in those countries. Time they cop on.

So tell me this, as we are an EU nation and German consultants under labour laws can easily come over here to work providing they have good English. In theory they could 'clean up' working over here compared to Germany, seeing as the Irish wage is so 'generous'. So why don't they? Ask yourself this question on a wider scale. Why, if these positions are so lucrative, aren't more English speaking doctors coming over to fill them? Why does the HSE have to recruit African doctors from their home countries who don't know any better about the system here? Could it be because most doctors in their right mind know that the abuse and the working conditions aren't worth it, so they get jobs in countries where they are treated properly instead?

dlouth15

I think there's a realisation that the day 180 to 200k starting salaries for consultants in Ireland are gone forever. The economy is on it's knees and countries with far better economies in the EU such as Germany don't pay anywhere near that.

Therefore working conditions and other factors need to be looked at. One thing I think could be done is to make it easier for foreign doctors to come here. Ireland is a small country yet exams similar to those in much larger countries have to be passed in order to work here. Same hurdle but less benefit due to the smaller market. Perhaps greater recognition of qualifications gained elsewhere would ease mobility.

The Commission, which highlights that Irish hospital doctors earn twice what their UK counterparts get, wants the Government to recognise more degrees from Europe and further afield. The HSE recognises far fewer degrees than the UK, for example. URL="http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/doctors-here-are-paid-too-much-says-new-eu-report-28957384.html"]source[/URL

steddyeddy

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

why are you even comparing subjects is what I dont understand? If the consequences of a miscalculation while figuring out a physics problem were the same as writing out a drug prescription im sure all science graduates would earn top bracket wages

again just senseless begrudgery it really is sad to see

There's that word again, begrudgery. People criticize whether someone is worth a certain salary and they are labeled begrudgers who should keep their mouths shut and not question their betters.

Science graduates can make top bracket wages but they would never bang on about 116k being nothing as it has been called in this thread.

dxhound2005

Traumadoc wrote: »

Many Irish docs are now working as consultant s in other countries, if you want to come back to Ireland you have to consider that you will take-home pay will be considerably less that what you are currently earning.

A consultant in Australia earns between A$ 320-400k (€325K) after tax vs €48K in Ireland.:eek:

Is that €48K for the new contracts or the existing ones? And is the €325K the starting salary?

Montroseee

Traumadoc wrote: »

Many Irish docs are now working as consultant s in other countries, if you want to come back to Ireland you have to consider that you will take-home pay will be considerably less that what you are currently earning.

A consultant in Australia earns between A$ 320-400k (€325K) after tax vs €48K in Ireland.:eek:

Your not factoring in living costs, a mars bar in Australia is nearly 4 dollars. They also don't receive as large pensions.

Those figures are also incorrect, a consultant in oz will be on a base pay of circa 250k.

dissed doc

dlouth15 wrote: »

I think there's a realisation that the day 180 to 200k starting salaries for consultants in Ireland are gone forever. The economy is on it's knees and countries with far better economies in the EU such as Germany don't pay anywhere near that.

Therefore working conditions and other factors need to be looked at. One thing I think could be done is to make it easier for foreign doctors to come here. Ireland is a small country yet exams similar to those in much larger countries have to be passed in order to work here. Same hurdle but less benefit due to the smaller market. Perhaps greater recognition of qualifications gained elsewhere would ease mobility.

Actually they do pay that. They also prioritise the maintenance of medical specialist staffing through the peaks and troughs of the economic cycle; it provides the basis for the social contract. IN Ireland there is little forward planning and so maintenance of experienced medical specialists (to keep the health service functioning through a recession like now) is not prioritised.

It's similar to why Germany will keep police, healthcare, etc., running through the recession; the will remove minimum wage and reduce welfare benefits but keep services running. In Ireland, the government has been cutting services to keep welfare (both the social kind, and the kind of private sector welfare that keeps dysfunctional business open).

There is a worldwide shortage of medical specialists. Ireland would do well to maintain good relations and reputation if maintaining an experienced group of specialists is a priority. Clearly, it isn't. So, the result is obvious, and is what people have voted for. Demand is just not there, so don't expect people to change.

Traumadoc

Montroseee wrote: »

Your not factoring in living costs, a mars bar in Australia is nearly 4 dollars. They also don't receive as large pensions.

Those figures are also incorrect, a consultant in oz will be on a base pay of circa 250k.

Most consultant jobs in Australia start at $340k but rise rapidly to A$ 400K+ there are jobs offering A$500 k starting , added in will be a CME fund of 20K per year.

Pay does vary state to state.

Traumadoc

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Is that €48K for the new contracts or the existing ones? And is the €325K the starting salary?

48k would be for new contracts, existing public only contracts would take home 74-78K.

325k would be starting for some jobs.

Reality_Check1

steddyeddy wrote: »

There's that word again, begrudgery. People criticize whether someone is worth a certain salary and they are labeled begrudgers who should keep their mouths shut and not question their betters.

Science graduates can make top bracket wages but they would never bang on about 116k being nothing as it has been called in this thread.

that's because to a science grad 116k isnt nothing (no offense) but to a consultant its actually poor compared to what the going rate is, Its all relative

ArmaniJeanss

dlouth15 wrote: »

Therefore working conditions and other factors need to be looked at. One thing I think could be done is to make it easier for foreign doctors to come here. Ireland is a small country yet exams similar to those in much larger countries have to be passed in order to work here. Same hurdle but less benefit due to the smaller market. Perhaps greater recognition of qualifications gained elsewhere would ease mobility.

Why would these foreign consultants choose Ireland over country XXX, assuming they are of the same qualification as Irish consultants who are choosing country XXX where there is a demand for them.

steddyeddy

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

that's because to a science grad 116k isnt nothing (no offense) but to a consultant its actually poor compared to what the going rate is, Its all relative

Hence me questioning their worth and the complaint that some people are in it entirely for the money.

Reality_Check1

I do find this thread amusing though the same people who are giving out now about consultants leaving were the same ones who used the logic

"sher we'll cut their wages to 116k and if they dont like it they can leave there's plenty of doctors who will work for that"

Well news flash there isn't and they did in fact leave. Bet you feel silly now?

What will we do now Joe? Its terrible Joe!

The internet Liveline

Montroseee

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

I do find this thread amusing though the same people who are giving out now about consultants leaving were the same ones who used the logic

"sher we'll cut their wages to 116k and if they dont like it they can leave there's plenty of doctors who will work for that"

Well news flash there isn't and they did in fact leave. Bet you feel silly now?

What will we do now Joe? Its terrible Joe!

The internet Liveline

There is much prestige and pride with being a hospital consultant. You'd think they would show a bit of patriotism

true

Consultants pay in the UK is between 74k and 100k per year. It is a major industrialised country, with economies of scale and a relatively well run, efficient health system, and is one of the countries helping to bail us out : why should we pay our consultants more than the going rate in the UK, or Germany, where it is even less?

Phttp://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/

Pay in Australia is not relevant: its a bubble economy, with its current high wages based on the bubble caused by huge natural resources exported to Asia/ China. Good luck to any Irish people wanting to work there, and I hope it continues for the Aussies, but we cannot afford to pay our public servants - in this bankrupt little state rescued by the IMF - the same as what the most successful country on the other side of the world pays. Until we discover the same amount of natural resources and can exploit that anyway.;)

Traumadoc

professore wrote: »

The solution is obvious. Cut consultants salaries and hire more of them, and more junior doctors. That way you improve the standard of care and remove the need for ridiculous overtime. You also give junior doctors their lives back. Also make it illegal for public consultants to have a private practise. in short actually implement the EU directive.

So cut consultants salaries by say 50% to say 54k and hire 2 of them?

Sure while your at it cut it to 11k and hire ten of them ?

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

ManMade

steddyeddy wrote: »

Hence me questioning their worth and the complaint that some people are in it entirely for the money.

Well they must feel they are worth more than €116k when they are leaving and not returning.

Our health system is sh*te and here people are attacking the people holding it together. I don't know why a doctor would want to be a consultant here. Huge hours and a begrudging public. Fair play to the ones who stay though.

Reality_Check1

I'll make a deal with people in this thread for fun happy times

As soon as the dole gets cut in line what it is in England and Germany then we will compare like for like with wages from other professions :P

Non comparable economies of scale are non comparable

isnt that right Joe?

Sure sure sure terrible altogehter

Traumadoc

true wrote: »

Consultants pay in the UK is between 74k and 100k per year. It is a major industrialised country, with economies of scale and a relatively well run, efficient health system, and is one of the countries helping to bail us out : why should we pay our consultants more than the going rate in the UK, or Germany, where it is even less?

Phttp://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/
)

Average pay for consultants in the UK is €130k and thats before merit awards.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1286369/Top-doctors-cash-76-000-bonus-payments-despite-NHS-budget-squeeze.html

Reality_Check1

Montroseee wrote: »

There is much prestige and pride with being a hospital consultant. You'd think they would show a bit of patriotism

Is this what the counter argument has been reduced to? Patriotism? The funny thing is there are a couple of people who didnt know you wernt being serious and thanked your post!!

lolcats

Montroseee

ManMade wrote: »

Well they must feel they are worth more than €116k when they are leaving and not returning.

Our health system is sh*te and here people are attacking the people holding it together. I don't know why a doctor would want to be a consultant here. Huge hours and a begrudging public. Fair play to the ones who stay though.

Whilst I agree they work extremely hard, up until a few years ago they earned incredible amounts

true

Traumadoc wrote: »

Average pay for consultants in the UK is €130k and thats before merit awards.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1286369/Top-doctors-cash-76-000-bonus-payments-despite-NHS-budget-squeeze.html

Go and work in the UK so. A consultant there is paid nearly as much as Cameron their p.m. , so you'll be in good company. Held in high regards. We cannot afford to pay our consultants the 100k they would get in Germany, never mind the fortune they would get in the UK.
As Gay Byrne says, you wanted our independence, you have to pay for it....

steddyeddy

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Is this what the counter argument has been reduced to? Patriotism? The funny thing is there are a couple of people who didnt know you wernt being serious and thanked your post!!

lolcats

It's nice to see well thought out posts in serious discussions.

Traumadoc

true wrote: »

Go and work in the UK so. A consultant there is paid nearly as much as Cameron their p.m. , so you'll be in good company. Held in high regards. We cannot afford to pay our consultants the 100k they would get in Germany, never mind the fortune they would get in the UK.
As Gay Byrne says, you wanted our independence, you have to pay for it....

What does Joe say?

Taco Chips

true wrote: »

Go and work in the UK so.

That's the whole point of this thread. The posts are being left unfilled because people are leaving to better conditions :pac:

Reality_Check1

Traumadoc wrote: »

What does Joe say?

We could hire 5 science graduates each with a different specialization to do the job of 1 consultant and pay them 28k each. 5 heads are better than 1 joe, we could reduce unemployment joe because them consultants are greedy Joe. Shame on them for wanting to work in a system that actually allows them to better themselves Joe,

And some of those consultants use banks Joe! Did you know its the banks fault my daughter bought her house at the height of the boom Joe? Now what is she supposed to do

All makes me sick Joe

true

Taco Chips wrote: »

That's the whole point of this thread. The posts are being left unfilled because people are leaving to better conditions :pac:

after the taxpayer paying a fortune to educate them for decades, from the age of 4, you would think they would show some little bit of patriotism and give something back to this country, when the country is on its knees...and work for say the same as a german consultant gets ie 100k a year. There are many consultants in the world - the vast majority - who work for 100k or less , so let them come and work here.

true

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

All makes me sick Joe

and with the pay they get, I cannot even afford to go and see a consultant, Joe;)

Traumadoc

true wrote: »

after the taxpayer paying a fortune to educate them for decades, from the age of 4, you would think they would show some little bit of patriotism and give something back to this country, when the country is on its knees...and work for say the same as a german consultant gets ie 100k a year. There are many consultants in the world - the vast majority - who work for 100k or less , so let them come and work here.

Patriotism?
A minute ago you wanted them to go work for Her Majesty - :roll eyes:

Make your mind up, Joe.

Reality_Check1

true wrote: »

after the taxpayer paying a fortune to educate them for decades, from the age of 4, you would think they would show some little bit of patriotism and give something back to this country, when the country is on its knees...and work for say the same as a german consultant gets ie 100k a year. There are many consultants in the world - the vast majority - who work for 100k or less , so let them come and work here.

Yes there are many consultants in the world who work for 100k or less and has already been stated they wont come within an arses roar of Ireland because working conditions and lifestyle are so bad. Money really is a minor factor in the decision of where to work its just the money has got so bad here many are willing to take a 10-20k hit move their family abroad because the conditions are so much better

By the time someone reaches consultant level they have been working here for roughly 10-12 years. In that time they will have contributed enough taxes to pay back everything that was spent on their education, the education of about 5 others as well as paying more than their share to public services including healthcare .

SO how about instead of branding them as lacking patriotism you open your eyes and realise that if it wasnt for them this country would have already bit the dust

steddyeddy

Taco Chips wrote: »

You're not making any point here and this is just going off topic now. Yes other degrees in science are hard. No one said they weren't. This topic is talking about the lifelong difficulty of a career in medicine from undergraduate to consultant. It's tough, it's competitive and it stays that way throughout your life and now new consultants aren't being paid or treated properly by the HSE, so they are leaving to seek better conditions as is their prerogative.

To put things back on topic and make my input relevant I'll condense my views.

The reason this science stuff is being brought up is because of the various comments being thrown about for example "166k is nothing" and a lot of various comments that the consultants are right to snub the job because of the "crap" wages.

I was wondering is there any consultants who do the job who don't do it primarily for the money. The reasons given was that medicine students and doctors work extremely hard I agree but so do science graduates.

I think that someone interested in medical science should love a consultant position. I was saying there are people doing far more to eradicate disease for far less money and happy to do so. As long as the attitude exists that making a difference in our knowledge of disease is only important if the money is more than the 116k "nothing".

I am simply pointing out that not everyone in the business of curing diseases do it for large sums of money. The point remains that people who recently made breakthroughs in aids, diabetes, cancer and diseases of the nervous system have been scientists who were delighted to do it for less than 116kor nothing as it has been called. These people could be earning a lot more than research scientists depending on where they worked.

When I hear about people like Sir Paul Nurse who discovered cyclin dependent kinases (control the cell cycle and the cell cycle is extremely important in terms of cancer studies) say "everyday I wake up and cant believe I get paid to do something I love" It shows me who the real heros are.

Then I read about consultants who don't take up these jobs for nothing (116k) and it is sickening frankly. On one hand we have a guy who's research will make a difference to the lives of millions saying he's lucky to be paid at all and the next we have a consultant who wont even accept the job for the wage.

As I say they are doing it primarily for the money and in my view have no place in medical science.

Recently a medical researcher and professor of medicine left UCD in a huff saying that h couldn't work under conditions where funding was being cut. His work was nothing to write home about and he operated at higher funding than a lot of geneticists and biochemists anyway. As I said earlier I see that my mates in the health service work under slave labor conditions and that has to change but I cannot abide by consultants with a complete lack of passion for what they do.