DCM 2013: Mentored Novices Thread......Take 2

wowzer

Laois_Man wrote: »

Even if what we're already doing is more than the plan?
Or should we be looking at a higher grade plan if you will?

As both tang and davemcmahon have said, pick a plan that suits you best when the time comes to pick a plan.
In the meantime just keep running and building that base. Try not to let picking a plan bother you too much at this stage as the marathon almost 7 months away.

Milknosugar

Well, I completed the Wicklow half in 2 hours 28 mins. It was soo cold - i really didnt warm up. the first 10 miles were fine, but I ran/walked the last 3. I did get a sprint finish though! Im sure the lack of training had something to do with the slow time but I really cant get myself out there in the dark & cold. Yes Im a wimp.
I will continue to train as best I can for this burren marathon. Is anyone else doing it? There's a 10k and a half aswell. I can change my mind & do the half on the day as I really dont have the miles in the legs now but I'll see how the next month goes.
Im glad to see the thread up and running again. At least now I have to be accountable. My friends arent that supportive as it means Im not my usual party self & am keeping quiet. And my mother hates me running and thinks I'll damage myself & that its not good for you. Luckily I live 200 miles away from home, but still!
Keep up the good work all

rasher_m

wowzer wrote: »

As both tang and davemcmahon have said, pick a plan that suits you best when the time comes to pick a plan.
In the meantime just keep running and building that base. Try not to let picking a plan bother you too much at this stage as the marathon almost 7 months away.

Did K say in an earlier post that she has a plan called running the marathon like the Road Runner or something?
I would've thought if it is so that this plan will be a step up from the Novice HH one since TRR didn't think the HH plan was high in dificulty.
Maybe I'm totally off the mark and TRR has nothing to do with it.

wowzer

She did mention a plan by TRR you are right there rasher, might be an idea for her to post the plan so people can decide if they like the look of it. By the looks of it people would want to see it even at this early stage.

Darren 83

Milknosugar wrote: »

Well, I completed the Wicklow half in 2 hours 28 mins. It was soo cold - i really didnt warm up. the first 10 miles were fine, but I ran/walked the last 3. I did get a sprint finish though! Im sure the lack of training had something to do with the slow time but I really cant get myself out there in the dark & cold. Yes Im a wimp.
I will continue to train as best I can for this burren marathon. Is anyone else doing it? There's a 10k and a half aswell. I can change my mind & do the half on the day as I really dont have the miles in the legs now but I'll see how the next month goes.
Im glad to see the thread up and running again. At least now I have to be accountable. My friends arent that supportive as it means Im not my usual party self & am keeping quiet. And my mother hates me running and thinks I'll damage myself & that its not good for you. Luckily I live 200 miles away from home, but still!
Keep up the good work all

Well done on the race, you finished it that's all that matters

career_move

wowzer wrote: »

She did mention a plan by TRR you are right there rasher, might be an idea for her to post the plan so people can decide if they like the look of it. By the looks of it people would want to see it even at this early stage.

YOU WANT THE PLAN??

It's code red people.....sorry :P










Only messing - there's 2 plans one that includes the Dublin 10m and HM and the other (because its what I'd do ) includes the Athlone HM and 3/4.

In the plan there are a few different types of run. Each of these has a purpose:


LSR – the most important runs in the program. You can afford to miss any of the others but not these. These should be done at a comfortable pace so that if you’re running with someone you can easily hold a conversation without becoming short of breath. When you’re training the physiological benefits from running kick in around 90-120 minutes, no matter how fast you run. By running slower you'll burn more calories and trigger glycogen regenesis, teaching your muscles to conserve fuel. Running too fast defeats this purpose and may unnecessarily tear down your muscles, compromising not only your midweek workouts, but the following week's long run. Save your fast running for the marathon itself.

Easy – these should be done at a comfortable pace. About 60 sec slower than pace runs. Some days you'll feel like running slower than this. That's ok. Some days you'll feel like you should go faster than this. That's not ok Your breathing should be relaxed and only slightly quicker than normal. The function of these runs is to build up the muscle fibres without causing too much stress


Pace – these are done at your planned marathon pace (PMP). If you are looking for a time just under 4 hours these will be done at 9min/mile pace. When you do races you can adjust your PMP based on your results.


5 x 100 metre strides
For 100m strides, accelerate until you're running at 80-90% of your maximum speed, whatever that is. Hold that pace for about 100 metres (count to 15 in your head, should be close enough). When you are running, try to focus on maintaining good running form - keep your upper body relaxed, your back straight and head up, your arms pumping forward and back, not side to side. (If that feels like too much to think of, focus on one element in each set of strides.) Don't stop dead after the 100m, just relax back down to your regular pace.

Do your first 100m strides after about a mile of running at your regular, easy pace. Wait until your breathing has recovered and you're running easily before doing your second set. Pick a flatish stretch of road or path where you'll have a clear run when you start each set.

This should help improve your running form, making you more efficient and saving you energy on longer distance runs.

Hill sprints
Ideally you will find a hill near the end of your run, but if it is in the middle of the run it is no problem. The hill needs to be steep but not very long. The effort of this should be similar to strides (i.e. not flat out), but you should power up the hill concentrating on form.

The sprints themselves should be 6 x 10-15 seconds (as I said the hill does not need to be long) and the recovery is jogging back down the hill. You should do these without stopping. If you have to stop you are doing them too hard.


Recovery – these are important runs for muscle repair. They should be done extremely slowly for maximum effect and should be between 20 – 40 minutes in length If you want you can substitute the recovery run for a swim.


Rest - is an important component of this or any training program. Scientists will tell you that it is during the rest period (the 24 to 72 hours between hard bouts of exercise) that the muscles actually regenerate and get stronger. You can't run hard unless you are well rested. And it is hard running (such as the long runs) that allows you to improve. If you're constantly fatigued, you won’t improve as quickly as you should and you will be more likely to get injured


And the plan......

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoaCGJk6gWtQdGI3TlI1SDVUNjlMSGRTX1VaMGtudUE#gid=1

rasher_m

Fair play for devising this plan K. It looks good.

wowzer

Two 20 milers is good too see, I also like that the plan has been tailored around the race series frank duffy and half marathon races.

Runchick

wowzer wrote: »

Plenty of eager beavers in here.

I was the same last year and ended up getting injured and missed out on the marathon as a result.

My advice is simple, marathon plans( HHNI, HHN2, P&D) are the specified length for a reason. Stick with the plan and you will reap the benefits.

Between now and then just get out and get plenty of easy miles in the legs and enjoy your running with no plan as a time will come where you hate the plan and would love to just get out and run with no specific goal..

+1 to all of the above.

I was very nearly out of DCM last year, just about making the start line and missed loads of training through injury. I was an eager beaver alright and just wanted to run and run. Believe me, if you love to get out running, there's nothing more frustrating than having to stop for weeks on end in the middle of a training plan, especially if you are on here and everyone else is ploughing on. Building up weekly mileage is hard on the body and you need time to adapt.

If I had built a good base with plenty of slow miles I think I would have got through the plan injury-free. I'm sure there are some base-building programs out there which might be an idea for the next few months?

Excellent to see this thread up and running again by the way, you're all in very good hands with career_move

RedRunner

tang1 wrote: »

I didnt make it to the start line unfortunately, dose of plantar faciitis seen to that

On a totally unrelated note could have sworn I just heard a fellow dart commuter address someone on the other end of a phone as Tang! Spooky if that was you Tang

RedRunner

tang1 wrote: »

I didnt make it to the start line unfortunately, dose of plantar faciitis seen to that

On a totally unrelated note could have sworn I just heard a fellow dart commuter address someone on the other end of a phone as Tang! Spooky if that was you Tang

tang1

RedRunner wrote: »

On a totally unrelated note could have sworn I just heard a fellow dart commuter address someone on the other end of a phone as Tang! Spooky if that was you Tang

Na wasn't me Red, Tang is where i was born & raised, not a nickname.

DonKing

Hello everyone, hoping to do my first marathon this year. Did the Dublin HM last year and really enjoyed it. Set a target of under 2 hours for the HM and was really chuffed with myself when I achieved it.

Unfortuanatly I damaged the ball of my right foot over Christmas(a combination of walking barefoot on tiles/wooden floors and running in a pair of runners which had worn out). I've been looking after the foot by only running on grass which seems to be doing the trick.

So the questions!


Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
5K 25:37 12/8/2012 Celbridge 5K
10k 45.xx in 1984(ok I know this doesn't really count. Metro Harriors back in the day)
Dublin half marathon 1.59.xx 2012

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training?
No.

How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
I'm currently getting out 3 times a week. Weekend run is around 10k. Midweek normally do around 6K. Normally would up the pace a bit in the middle of the midweek runs. I intend to start a bit of speed work shortly and possibly do the Lucan 5k in May. I should be able to get a slightly more respectable time than the time I have posted above.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Dream would be under 4:00, realistically anything under 4:30. I'm also hoping to improve my HM time maybe get under 1:50

How many days a week can you train?
5

Why are you running this marathon?
I really enjoyed the HM last year and the full marathon is the next step. I'm hovering around 13 stone at the moment so I'd also like to get in better shape. I'm 44 years old

coalshed

Laois_Man wrote: »

In light of the previous comments.....here's a question.

HHN1 (or whatever plan we will follow) doesn't start until June 24th

What if I started it next Monday, 11 weeks early, and use the extra weeks to have repeat weeks on the plan if health or life gets in the way - or even save them all up until I get to the pinnacle week, week 15, and just repeat that week for 11 weeks....or dare I say it, even go a bit further than the plan and build up to 22 or 23 mile LSRs during that period.

I feel like I should be following some sort of a plan right now and I don't wanna wait 11 weeks and I am more than well able for HHN1 week 1 right now. In fact, I'd be well able to jump straight into week 5 right now...which suggests maybe I should be looking at one of Hals other plans?? Because come June 24th, I'll probably already (touch wood) be up to about week 10 (at least) of the plan in terms of weekly mileage - even if I'm not consciously following the plan - I certainly don't intend to slow myself down waiting for June 24th to come along.

Hey there. I would consider training for a half and building base mileage as others have suggested. The half will give you something to aim for and will provide you with a great idea of how you might plan to perform when you start marathon training at the end of June.

Building a base of miles will be of benefit to anyone planning to run dcm13, ideally the first week of the plan that you do in June where you run 20 miles over the course of the week should not be a shock to system.

Good luck to all on the thread, dcm12 was my first marathon and it was an amazing experience. The training can be tough at times, but that's why these boards help, and getting through those tough days make crossing the line all the sweeter.

Finally, yer in good hands with C_M!

Dilbert75

I agree it'd be too drawn-out to extend your marathon plan much past 18wks. Coalshed's advice on a HM is good and the Strawberry Half Marathon is actually on that Sunday 24th June. It's a tough route but a good test. If you can run that well you'll be in great shape for your DCM plan.

Laois_Man

Since I'll be in the area at the time anyway, I was actually considering doing the 'Half on the Head' in Ballyheigue, County Kerry on June 16th. Has anyone ever done this race or know much about the course? Sounds difficult/hilly.

Failing this, I'd probably tackle Waterford HM 2 weeks later instead (Even tho it comes after June 24th).

pconn062

Laois_Man wrote: »

Since I'll be in the area at the time anyway, I was actually considering doing the 'Half on the Head' in Ballyheigue, County Kerry on June 16th. Has anyone ever done this race or know much about the course? Sounds difficult/hilly.

Failing this, I'd probably tackle Waterford HM 2 weeks later instead (Even tho it comes after June 24th).

I'll just add my two cents here, if it was me I would tackle a 10k plan before starting a marathon plan, rather than a 1/2 marathon plan. Half marathon training is very similar to marathon training and the faster running in the 10k plan would be of more benefit in my opinion. The increased paces of the 10k plan would build strength and the shorter speed work would add some sharpness to your training, increasing your overall training paces (if done properly). Most elite/national level runners would tackle a 10k plan before approaching marathon training to base build and build strength. Also the shorter duration of a 10k plan (the McMillan one can be done in 8 weeks) means you are less likely to end up injured or fatigued at the start of marathon training.

Also, the plan looks very good for a beginner, my only comment would be that for slightly more experienced, they could afford to stretch out the 3/4 mile midweek runs, someone running under 9 minutes a mile will be spending less than half an hour doing a 3 mile run, at which stage their aerobic system is just warming up. In fact Jack Daniels says that for a run shorter than 30 minutes you are spending more time changing and showering than actually running, and the overall effort is negated by such a short duration. You could potentially stretch those runs out to 5/6 miles, depending on the individual runner.

Best of luck with the training.

coalshed

pconn062 wrote: »

I'll just add my two cents here, if it was me I would tackle a 10k plan before starting a marathon plan, rather than a 1/2 marathon plan. Half marathon training is very similar to marathon training and the faster running in the 10k plan would be of more benefit in my opinion. The increased paces of the 10k plan would build strength and the shorter speed work would add some sharpness to your training, increasing your overall training paces (if done properly). Most elite/national level runners would tackle a 10k plan before approaching marathon training to base build and build strength. Also the shorter duration of a 10k plan (the McMillan one can be done in 8 weeks) means you are less likely to end up injured or fatigued at the start of marathon training.

What he said. Not what I said!

Training for a 10k sounds like a good plan...I might do it myself after (hopefully) completing the Paris marathon this weekend.

statss

Hmmmm....training for a 10k makes a lot more sense actually when you put it like that pconn62...like coalshed I think I will do that now instead after Conn this weekend...

shortstuff!

pconn062 wrote: »

Most elite/national level runners would tackle a 10k plan before approaching marathon training to base build and build strength. Also the shorter duration of a 10k plan (the McMillan one can be done in 8 weeks) means you are less likely to end up injured or fatigued at the start of marathon training.

Think your right about jumping into the plan too early, how does this sound for a 10km plan
Mon/Tues 5km easy
Wed McMillan Session
Thurday 5km easy
Friday Rest
Saturday LSR 10miles

Think Ill do the 10km at the K-Club April 20th and Braveheart 5km June 8th, any suggestions for a 10km in June near Meath/Kildare/Dublin?

tang1

shortstuff! wrote: »

Think your right about jumping into the plan too early, how does this sound for a 10km plan
Mon/Tues 5km easy
Wed McMillan Session
Thurday 5km easy
Friday Rest
Saturday LSR 10miles

Think Ill do the 10km at the K-Club April 20th and Braveheart 5km June 8th, any suggestions for a 10km in June near Meath/Kildare/Dublin?

22nd of June Micheal Manning 10km in Dunshaughlin. Top class race & very well organised.

pconn062

shortstuff! wrote: »

Think your right about jumping into the plan too early, how does this sound for a 10km plan
Mon/Tues 5km easy
Wed McMillan Session
Thurday 5km easy
Friday Rest
Saturday LSR 10miles

Think Ill do the 10km at the K-Club April 20th and Braveheart 5km June 8th, any suggestions for a 10km in June near Meath/Kildare/Dublin?

Sounds good, again like I said with the marathon plan, depending on your level you could stretch out the 5km runs a little, 4-6 miles but that's a personal thing depending on your fitness level and time available. As you only do one of the McMillan sessions every second week you could add in a differing session in between. Something like:

10-12x400m @ 3-5k pace with 1 min recovery
20 minute or 2x15 minute tempo run with 2 min recovery
16-20x200m at mile-3k pace with 45 sec recovery
Pyramid session: 4-3-2-1-2-3-4 minutes hard with 30 secs recovery in between each hard section

Those are done on the weeks you don't do a McMillan session. Also I agree with tang, the Dunshaughlin 10k is your best bet, fantastic race.

shortstuff!

Great thanks! Dunshaughlin is perfect timing as well, right before the DCM plan starts:)

Will give some of them sessions a go as well pconn062, sound fun!

runwithme

I have been waiting for this and so thrilled that its up and running again. Im running about 2 years so def have a good base. Not much speed but I seem to be able for distance.

I walked the Marathon last year as I was too late to jump into the training plan. Its a great course and the athmosphere on the day....even as a walker was great. I made the decision there and then to run it in 2013.

To the questions:

•Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Yes. Dungarvan Jan 2013 10 miles in 1 hour 35 mins
Ballbriggan half March 2013 2 hours 6 mins

•Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do)
- No but if I go out too fast in a race I have had to stop for a few seconds to regulate my breathing. It doesnt really happen anymore.

•How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
- I take part in a lot of sports. I run 4 times a week.
3 x 4.5 miles and one long run at weekend 8-10 miles.
2 spinning classes a week
2 swims per week
1 kettle bell class a week. Monday
1 core work per week Wed
1 crossfit session Fri

Usually get out on the bike for a long cycle on Sat

•What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time ?
I would love 4.10 but I would be happy with 4.30 for my first marathon

•How many days a week can you train ?
I do something every day and always have. Running came into my routine about 2 years ago. So I can train 5 runs a week

•Why are you running this marathon ?
Im running this marathon for me and only me. I have not told anybody about my plan and I hope to keep it that way till late summer.

I have only one half marathon under my belt and im doing the limerick half in May. Its my dream I can put the work in. I know I have a good solid base to start from yet I dont seem to have the self-belief in myself yet with a bit more running and a good plan in place I think I can do it...........

Bring it on.........:)

Darren 83

So planing to join my local club tomorrow they train on Tuesday and Thursday so if following the hal hidgon novice 1 plan will I just do 3 miles on Wednesday.

ooter

Would it be ok to fit the Tue/wed/thurs runs in to 2 days or is it important to do them over the 3 days?
not sure if I could commit to the 3 midweek runs.

greenb

Ok, I'm taking the plunge!....this is the first official notice to anyone outside of the voices in my head that I'm definitely doing DCM13 (barring injury or a sudden and unexpected onset of sanity).

Some background: 50 years old. Took up running about a year and a half ago after 25 years of sedentary life, sitting on either a barstool or couch. Completed C25K program after suffering grade 3 calf tear about 2 weeks in. My legs were extremely upset with me and protested like Greek civil servants for about 7 weeks. Anyway, finally completed the program, and moved on from there to the point where I now run between 20-30 miles per week including weekly long run of 10-14 miles. Have not suffered any injury since and have lost nearly 3 stone from starting weight of 17.

Was avid reader and occasional (very occasional) contributor to last year's DCM novices thread. That thread was probably instrumental in my decision to go for it this year.

To the questions:

•Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Dec 2011 - Clonliffe Christmas cracker 5k 26:30
Aug 2012 (I think) - Raheny Shamrocks summer 5K 25:19
Dec 2012 - Jingle bells 5K 24.08
Jan 2013 - Raheny 5 mile 39:50 (stunned myself with sub 40 which I didn't think possible).

No other races. Have just been running around aimlessly really!

•Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training ? (No problem if you do)
- No
•How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
- Currently 4 times a week, usually 5 miles, 3miles and 8 miles midweek and long run of 10-14 at weekend.

•What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time ?
- Have no idea what I'm capable of or will be capable of after training. need to do some more races I guess. Dream would be to have a 3 starting my time. Would probably be very happy with 4:30 and disappointed if slower.
•How many days a week can you train ?
- 4, maybe 5
•Why are you running this marathon ?

- I have no idea! maybe something to do with this mid-life crisis everyone tells me about.

Hoping to get some good advice and to be kept honest by this thread. I could clearly see the benefit the DCM12 novices got from their thread last year.

career_move

Darren 83 wrote: »

So planing to join my local club tomorrow they train on Tuesday and Thursday so if following the hal hidgon novice 1 plan will I just do 3 miles on Wednesday.

Ya that'll be fine. Keep it slow though because you'll probably be doing faster stuff with your club;)

ooter wrote: »

Would it be ok to fit the Tue/wed/thurs runs in to 2 days or is it important to do them over the 3 days?
not sure if I could commit to the 3 midweek runs.

No it would be better to just skip one than to try and fit them all in to 2 days. I think do one easy run and then do the session the following day

BrokenMan

pconn062 wrote: »

Sounds good, again like I said with the marathon plan, depending on your level you could stretch out the 5km runs a little, 4-6 miles but that's a personal thing depending on your fitness level and time available. As you only do one of the McMillan sessions every second week you could add in a differing session in between. Something like:

10-12x400m @ 3-5k pace with 1 min recovery
20 minute or 2x15 minute tempo run with 2 min recovery
16-20x200m at mile-3k pace with 45 sec recovery
Pyramid session: 4-3-2-1-2-3-4 minutes hard with 30 secs recovery in between each hard section

Those are done on the weeks you don't do a McMillan session. Also I agree with tang, the Dunshaughlin 10k is your best bet, fantastic race.

good advice. just one small thing, pyramid sessions would start out short, build up then taper down.
to follow the example you have it would be 1,2,3,4,3,2,1

shortstuff!

ooter wrote: »

Would it be ok to fit the Tue/wed/thurs runs in to 2 days or is it important to do them over the 3 days?
not sure if I could commit to the 3 midweek runs.

Im the same, mid week runs are a struggle timewise. Fit 3X5K midweek runs in this week so hopefully can continue. Tuesday straight after work but meant I didnt eat dinner until 9pm still in running gear :eek: Lunchtime run on Thurday as I was home too late Wednesday and then a 6.30 run this morning before work! Wouldnt have managed any further than 5km as constrained by daylight hours... Hopefully with the days getting longer, Ill be able to increase the distance a bit...

What peoples opinions on splitting the longer mid week runs later in the plan? Say 3m in am/lunch and balance in evening if you definately couldnt fit it in timewise in the evening? I guess I should just plan to HTFU and get up earlier:rolleyes: