Would you wear an Easter Lily?

Thomas_I

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Proportionally more Irish died in WW I than perhaps any other nationality fighting for the Allies, than you have the people who fought and died in the 1916 Easter Rising, War of Independence and onwards (UN peacekeepers who lost their lives). Yet a stroll through Ireland coming up to Easter notes the relative absence of wearing the lily to mark our fallen family members and people who died for Ireland. Every country marks such a thing with such a symbol in remembrance and even have national day of remembrance? What about ust, we lack a national holiday ? Do we,the Irish people and government tacitly ignore our histroy?

Has the Civil War, the Troubles ( pro/anti Treaty, paramilitaries etc ) somehow given us a collective amnesia or is it that we prefer to reflect in silence on the anniversary of the Rising? The great tragedy being that, nearly a hundred years later, it is still very ambigous just exactly what people were fighting for? Please can I especially appeal to those who lost family members to discuss whether they wear the Easter Lily or otherwise mark the sad passing of the dead?


Note: The money does not go into 'prisoner funds' or Sinn Féin's pockets, it goes towards preserving graves and memorials for those who died.

That´s the problems you´ve mentioned and it´s a sad thing that still political stances and ideologies makes it hard to commemorate the dead without that.

I´m no Irishman and even if I would be one, I´d find it hard to wear it because this symbol is too close related to SF or other Republican splinter groups, so I wouldn´t wear it. I´d say that it´s time for them to move on and embrace those who gave their lives fighting in WWI prior to the Easter Rising. These were also Irishmen. What a disgrace such people are showing to their own dead fellowmen in excluding them from commemoration. That is imo beyond any reason and therefore a very sad thing.

OCorcrainn

I will reiterate as some people here are clueless or are just refusing to accept the facts about the poppy.

It has been hijacked by the Royal British Legion, you will be strongly criticized in the UK if you are seen wearing a White Poppy rather than the Red Poppy, and the Red Poppy is only used in remembrance for British soldiers in WW1 and beyond.

But by all means wear the White Poppy, which is supposed to symbolize peace just don't wear the red one.

My name is URL

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Honour terrorists all you want, freedom of expression and all that, but I won't be joining you.

And how many British soldiers have been found guilty of murder and torture and other human rights abuses over the years? But yeah.. funny how it's only seen as 'honouring terrorists' when it suits you.

The Poppy doesn't just represent the good of British military history... there's a whole shitload of bad in there too.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

1. Fighting in the British army does not make you British.
2. The poppy does not commemorate British soldiers as pointed out to you before it was the Americans who first wore them.
3. The poppy is an international symbol used to commemorate all those who died in wars since 1914, it is not a British symbol.

1 - What a blatant straw man. You even quoted my post but still said it. Jesus. Anyway, as anyone with the ability to read can see I clearly said joining the British Army makes you a British soldier. Are you really disputing that?

2 - This is not America. Poppies in Britain and Ireland are distributed by the Royal British Legion, their meaning and where the proceeds go is quite explicit.

3 - No it is not, particularly not here. see point number two above.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Honour terrorists all you want, freedom of expression and all that, but I won't be joining you. And thankfully from looking around the streets of our fair capital the vast majority of people agree with me.

Setting aside your ridiculous terrorist jibe, I have no issue with you not wearing a lily. Thankfully the Easter Lily hasnt become associated with the type of poppy fascism seen in Britain and the north.
Looking around the streets of our fair capital the vast majority of people agree with me on the poppy.
I also dont know when or where you've been looking but I've seen plenty of lilies in Dublin in the past

OCorcrainn

awec wrote: »

I feel you are being a bit disrespectful toward the many Irish men who gave their lives during that period.

I will tell you what is disrespectful.

Those Irish men, the veterans of the 1st World War who went off to shed their blood in No Man's Land who than came back home to Ireland and had to watch helplessly as their wives and daughters were raped and homes burnt down by the same British army they fought for.




Edit: PS - They would never have worn the poppy.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well if it represents "those who die in war in general." Then it must also represent the Irish who died in war.


1. The lily is not our national symbol.
2. I agree with independence but not terrorism.

And I never disputed that, I just said I did not like it because of who it also represented that I personally do not agree with.

The poppy is not our national symbol either, the Lily was designed by a woman who lost two of her sons in the Civil War, so like the Poppy, it's beginnings were different to it's general assumption today.

And they were retaliating to the acts of terrorism that were inflicted on them. They fought fire with fire, so if one side is guilty of terrorism, then surely the other is too?

Hunterbiker

OCorcrainn wrote: »

I will tell you what is disrespectful.

Those Irish men, the veterans of the 1st World War who went off to shed their blood in No Man's Land who than came back home to Ireland....

Those that bothered to come back that is about 200,000 volunteered about 35K (actual Irish people not just serving in an Irish Regt) killed and about 100,000 came back...

Those that did weren't exactly welcomed by certain sections of society...and those that didnt come home probably knew their life would be a made a living hell by many of those who chose not to fight...

OCorcrainn

Hunterbiker wrote: »

Those that bothered to come back that is about 200,000 volunteered about 35K (actual Irish people not just serving in an Irish Regt) killed and about 100,000 came back...

Those that did weren't exactly welcomed by certain sections of society...and those that didnt come home probably knew their life would be a made a living hell by many of those who chose not to fight...

Oh yeah..like Tom Barry, he was despised by nationalists. :pac:

Hunterbiker

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Oh yeah..like Tom Barry, he was despised by nationalists. :pac:

True. I didn't mean to suggest all of them were subjected to poor treatment by republicans just theones that weren't Republicans...

Crooked Jack

Hunterbiker wrote: »

True. I didn't mean to suggest all of them were subjected to poor treatment by republicans just theones that weren't Republicans...

It's kind of understandable though. These people returned home in British uniforms to a populace that had watched the British army sack Dublin, hack civilians to bits and then execute the leaders of the rising.

Republicanism was on the rise and there was a strong anti-british sentiment in the country.
Most people would not have been happy about a proud British soldier moving in next door

OCorcrainn

Hunterbiker wrote: »

True. I didn't mean to suggest all of them were subjected to poor treatment by republicans just theones that weren't Republicans...

A sizeable amount of the Irish men who fought in WW1 were from the National Volunteers (142,000) who before the split were in the Irish Volunteers. The Irish Volunteers were Irish nationalists/republicans.

Iwasfrozen

My name is URL wrote: »

And how many British soldiers have been found guilty of murder and torture and other human rights abuses over the years? But yeah.. funny how it's only seen as 'honouring terrorists' when it suits you.

The Poppy doesn't just represent the good of British military history... there's a whole shitload of bad in there too.

The poppy doesn't represent the British alone, it represents all those who have died in war since 1914.

OCorcrainn

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poppy doesn't represent the British alone, it represents all those who have died in war since 1914.

Which poppy are you referring to?

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poppy doesn't represent the British alone, it represents all those who have died in war since 1914.

....where does the money go?

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

1 - What a blatant straw man. You even quoted my post but still said it. Jesus. Anyway, as anyone with the ability to read can see I clearly said joining the British Army makes you a British soldier. Are you really disputing that?

I do dispute your assertion that no Irish soldiers fought in ww1. Plenty did. And many of them died.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

2 - This is not America. Poppies in Britain and Ireland are distributed by the Royal British Legion, their meaning and where the proceeds go is quite explicit.

Then do what the Americans did and make your own, sell them and put the money towards the Irish armed forces retirement fund. My counter example is only being used to show that the poppy is not a British symbol. It's international.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

3 - No it is not, particularly not here. see point number two above.

Yes, yes it is. The British selling poppies does not make it a British symbol. I really don't understand your mentality.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Setting aside your ridiculous terrorist jibe, I have no issue with you not wearing a lily. Thankfully the Easter Lily hasnt become associated with the type of poppy fascism seen in Britain and the north.
Looking around the streets of our fair capital the vast majority of people agree with me on the poppy.
I also dont know when or where you've been looking but I've seen plenty of lilies in Dublin in the past

That's funny, I've been living here for three years and have yet to see a single one. I haven't seen any worn in the country either. I see nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, the IRA were terrorists. That's indisputable.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

....where does the money go?

The one's the British sell? Towards the British armed forces of course. The Americans sell them too and they go towards the American armed forces. Why don't you make some, sell them and put the money towards our armed forces? That way you can express your nationalism without condoning terrorism. Everyone wins.

dlofnep

I always wear one. If for nothing more, to show a mark of respect for people who gave up their lives for our independence.

It sounds like a cliché, but when you really analyse it - To give up your life for a cause or a principle is one of the most selfless acts a person can do. If someone can die for our betterment, then the least I can do is honour their death.

I would say that someone doesn't have to wear a Lily to honour them. People can do it in their own way, or not do it at all. I wouldn't judge anyone for not wearing it, or for wearing it. It's a personal choice for me.

Hunterbiker

OCorcrainn wrote: »

A sizeable amount of the Irish men who fought in WW1 were from the National Volunteers (142,000) who before the split were in the Irish Volunteers. The Irish Volunteers were Irish nationalists/republicans.

But that highlights how complex this phase of Irish History is. People need to be very careful in using words like Republican and Nationalist as it is easy for others to get a different meaning to the one intended. My bad there.

My earlier post was just suggesting that it's highly likely that many of those veterans returned and faced hostility. I highlighted hostility of certain Republican groups towards veterans who held a differibg view but equally veterans who joined certain Republican groups faced hostility too.

That whole period was a maelstrom of emotion.

Vicar in a tutu

I'll be wearing it, Im Irish and would be proud to wear a small symbol to honour Irelands patriot dead.

OCorcrainn

IwasFrozen

You still have not answered my question, is it the White or Red Poppy you are referring to?

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

And I never disputed that, I just said I did not like it because of who it also represented that I personally do not agree with.

That's fine you're perfectly capable of deciding what you do and don't agree with in this day and age. No one is going to force their beliefs on you, you may get funny looks if you walk down the street with a white lily pinned to your jacket but that's to be expected considering what it represents.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The poppy is not our national symbol either, the Lily was designed by a woman who lost two of her sons in the Civil War, so like the Poppy, it's beginnings were different to it's general assumption today.

Unfortunately it was hi jacked by IRA terrorists but even at it's conception the lily commemorated armed rebellion against the state to get what you want. Violence is never the alternative to peace and that's what this lily represents.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

And they were retaliating to the acts of terrorism that were inflicted on them. They fought fire with fire, so if one side is guilty of terrorism, then surely the other is too?

Of course. A lot of the time the British army were just as bad as the IRA but the poppy does not represent the British alone.

Iwasfrozen

OCorcrainn wrote: »

IwasFrozen

You still have not answered my question, is it the White or Red Poppy you are referring to?

Sorry missed it, I'm referring to the red poppy but I can't speak for others.

Hunterbiker

As an aside there is a poem, often recited around November that mentiobs poppies. It's called In Flanders Fields. It was written by a Canadian...

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The one's the British sell? Towards the British armed forces of course. The Americans sell them too and they go towards the American armed forces. Why don't you make some, sell them and put the money towards our armed forces? That way you can express your nationalism without condoning terrorism. Everyone wins.

Well, seeing as the Poppy funds over here goes towards the British Royal Legion, it can't be claimed as honouring all the dead, can it? And seeing as the money goes towards living troops, its rather more than remembering the dead, isn't it?

gallag

An gonna bring this whole system crashing down and wear a red lilly. Others might not give a fuk.

OCorcrainn

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sorry missed it, I'm referring to the red poppy but I can't speak for others.

No problem but why do you wear the red rather than the white poppy?

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Well, seeing as the Poppy funds over here goes towards the British Royal Legion, it can't be claimed as honouring all the dead, can it? And seeing as the money goes towards living troops, its rather more than remembering the dead, isn't it?

Only the ones sold by the British go towards the British armed forces. The only thing stopping the Irish army doing the same is the intolerance of some Irish people.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

No problem but why do you wear the red rather than the white poppy?

I don't wear either.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poppy doesn't represent the British alone, it represents all those who have died in war since 1914.

No it doesnt, you can repeat this all you want but it's a lie.
The poppy supplied by the Royal british Legion commemorates all british soldiers from 1914 onwards and the money raised from it goes to british soldiers today.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

No it doesnt, you can repeat this all you want but it's a lie.
The poppy supplied by the Royal british Legion commemorates all british soldiers from 1914 onwards and the money raised from it goes to british soldiers today.

Only the ones sold by the British go towards the British armed forces. The only thing stopping the Irish army doing the same is the intolerance of some Irish people.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Violence is never the alternative to peace and that's what this lily represents.

And yet you staunchly defend the poppy.