Would you wear an Easter Lily?

uch

ahh it's that time of year again

OCorcrainn

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes they did but the poppy is not a British symbol.


The IRA is not an illegal organisation now?

It is not a symbol of the IRA, but out of interest which IRA are you referring to?

I forgive you for your ignorance on the matter . I remember in a thread about Sinn Féin you eventually brought up the Nazis.

Not your fault that you are somewhat close-minded.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Originally perhaps but not now. had you read the other links you would have seen that the only group allowed to produce and sell poppies in Britain and Ireland is the Royal British Legion. The money goes towards helping current and former british soldiers. The article also clearly states that the poppy is used in Britain to commemorate all post 1914 british soldiers.

This thread however, is not about the poppy, it's about the Easter Lily.
I wear one every year but on my own time.
I wouldn't wear it into work or demand anybody else wear one.
With that said, anyone who is in favour of Irish independence should have no issue with the lily.
Like i said, the money goes to the National Graves Association. If anyone thinks it has become an exclusively Sinn Fein symbol then all they have to do is wear it to remedy that.
Im sure sinn fein would love to see the SDLP, FF, FG, Labour and other Irish parties wearing the lily. It is not theirs, it's everybody's.

That's not the point, if the poppy was first used by the Americans then it is an international symbol, which means it can be used to remember the Irish fallen. So we have no need for the lily which makes it irrelevant.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This is pretty much the same thing Jack said so I'll just post the same response to both.

I am not sure if you missed it or selectively reading, so I will quote this tiny sentence

The remembrance poppy has been used since 1920 to commemorate soldiers who have died in war.

Not that it is to commemorate only the dead of that war, but since then for those who die in war in general.

Iwasfrozen

OCorcrainn wrote: »

It is not a symbol of the IRA, but out of interest which IRA are you referring to?

The lily does not commemorate one particular branch.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

I forgive you for your ignorance on the matter . I remember in a thread about Sinn Féin you eventually brought up the Nazis.

No I juxtaposed the ideals of Irish unity with Anschluss. An interesting comparison I was reminded of when one poster said Irish unity would not be annexation since we are the one people.

OCorcrainn wrote: »

Not your fault that you are somewhat close-minded.

I try to see both sides of the argument but I guess unlike you I just find it hard to sympathise with terrorists.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's not the point, if the poppy was first used by the Americans then it is an international symbol, which means it can be used to remember the Irish fallen. So we have no need for the lily which makes it irrelevant.

The Lily represents ALL Irish dead, so yes, it is relevant.

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Not that it is to commemorate only the dead of that war, but since then for those who die in war in general.

So then you agree the poppy represents the Irish dead?

wolfpawnat wrote: »

The Lily represents ALL Irish dead, so yes, it is relevant.

You didn't read my post.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I try to see both sides of the argument but I guess unlike you I just find it hard to sympathise with terrorists.

I assume this is your attempt at humour, no matter what the thread, you refuse to see what the "terrorists" (as you call them) were fighting for because they were the opposition to your beliefs.

OCorcrainn

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I try to see both sides of the argument but I guess unlike you I just find it hard to sympathise with terrorists.

So the Lily represents terrorists? So the Irish men who fought and died in WW1, Easter 1916, War of Independence, WW2, with the UN in the Congo/Lebanon are all terrorists are they? :rolleyes:

I learned that very often the most intolerant and narrow-minded people are the ones who congratulate themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness.
Christopher Hitchens

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's not the point, if the poppy was first used by the Americans then it is an international symbol, which means it can be used to remember the Irish fallen. So we have no need for the lily which makes it irrelevant.

That's completely the point. It doesnt matter who first used it, all three of those links i put up show that the poppy today commemorates all post 1914 British soldiers and the money from its sale goes to british soldiers.
The world war one lie is used to guilt people into buying it.

Anyway, enough about that odious symbol, this thread is about the Easter Lily

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I assume this is your attempt at humour, no matter what the thread, you refuse to see what the "terrorists" (as you call them) were fighting for because they were the opposition to your beliefs.

Not in opposition to my beliefs. If I were living in WWI era I'd want independence too. I disagree totally with their methods though.

Hunterbiker

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Yet the Brits have a whole month of remembering their war dead and if you are a celeb or tv personality that doesn't wear their poppy, you are condemned by many.

The poppy is a UK symbol of remembrance and is used by the Royal British Legion in an annual fundraiser. It's a very effective campaign - it brings in a shed load of cash and as you say you won't see many TV types who don't wear a poppy. The only one who consistantly doesn't is a broadcaster called John Snow. He refuses point blank to wear that or any other symbol. He is villified at times but couldn't care less.

I would say that whilst the charity money goes to support the RBL's charity work and that is spent on UK exforces etc the actual main Rememberance events in the UK (Cenotaph parade etc) remember ALL war dead from The Commonwealth (Empire Forces) and UK (including Ireland) forces who have fought in wars - regardless of any official representation from Irish Government.

UK Commonwealth War Graves Commission still look after and maintain all cemetries and memorials (where they can get access) for commonwealth War Dead - this includes the Irish casualties from WW1 (and later). It's funded by various commonwealth Governments but UK pay about 78% of the total.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So then you agree the poppy represents the Irish dead?

When did I ever deny that? I merely said I want nothing to do with that flower because of what it implies regarding the British Soldiers in my country.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You didn't read my post.

I did, I feel that you dismissing a country's personal symbol as "irrelevant" because you personally don't agree with it was worth arguing though.

coffee_cake

Plenty of irish people die all the time, I'm not wearing a lily for them or for this nonsense

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

That's completely the point. It doesnt matter who first used it, all three of those links i put up show that the poppy today commemorates all post 1914 British soldiers and the money from its sale goes to british soldiers.
The world war one lie is used to guilt people into buying it.

Anyway, enough about that odious symbol, this thread is about the Easter Lily

No they don't,

In the United States, the American Legion distributes crepe-paper poppies in exchange for contributions.[when?] "Poppy Day" is usually the same as or near Memorial Day in May.[35] However, many Legion groups also make poppies available around 11 November.[36]

I know this thread is about the lily bu that's the point. If the poppy represents Irish soldiers, without the negative connections of the IRA then this makes the lily irrelevant, useful only by those who want to commemorate the atrocities carried out by the Irish paramilitaries.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not in opposition to my beliefs. If I were living in WWI era I'd want independence too. I disagree totally with their methods though.

Are you not aware of the peaceful means Charles Stewart Parnell and his likes had tried for with Home Rule for years before. In all fairness, Ireland had tried both methods over and over. There is only so long people will be dismissed by political means before they try other ones.

Can you blame them really?

awec

The poppy represents all wars post 1914, but a lot of people who buy it do so to only commemorate the 2 world wars. Certainly they are the main focus.

Iwasfrozen

wolfpawnat wrote: »

When did I ever deny that? I merely said I want nothing to do with that flower because of what it implies regarding the British Soldiers in my country.

Well if it represents "those who die in war in general." Then it must also represent the Irish who died in war.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I did, I feel that you dismissing a country's personal symbol as "irrelevant" because you personally don't agree with it was worth arguing though.

1. The lily is not our national symbol.
2. I agree with independence but not terrorism.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Are you not aware of the peaceful means Charles Stewart Parnell and his likes had tried for with Home Rule for years before. In all fairness, Ireland had tried both methods over and over. There is only so long people will be dismissed by political means before they try other ones.

I am, and home rule was coming, it was suspended until the conclusion of the war.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Can you blame them really?

Yes.

awec

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well if it represents "those who die in war in general." Then it must also represent the Irish who died in war.

It does. It commemorates anyone who fought in the British Army, nationality doesn't matter. A lot of Irishmen fought during the world wars and the poppy commemorates them.

Fighting Irish

I wouldn't give a fu(k either way, and i don't know why other people would care

donvito99

The day Gerry Adams stops wearing one.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No they don't,

well, now you're just lying, yes they do.

Today, they are mainly used in the UK and Canada to commemorate their servicemen and women who have been killed since 1914.

the Legion is a campaigning organisation that promotes the welfare and interests of current and former members of the British Armed Forces.

The Legion holds a fund-raising drive each year in the weeks before Remembrance Sunday, during which artificial red poppies, meant to be worn on clothing, are offered to the public in return for a donation to the Legion. According to the Legion, "The red poppy is our registered mark and its only lawful use is to raise funds for the Poppy Appeal".[2]

The Poppy Appeal is the Legion's major fundraising campaign with a target of £42 million for 2012. We need donations all year for our vital work helping the whole Armed Forces family.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I know this thread is about the lily bu that's the point. If the poppy represents Irish soldiers, without the negative connections of the IRA then this makes the lily irrelevant, useful only by those who want to commemorate the atrocities carried out by the Irish paramilitaries.

The poppy does not represent Irish soldiers. No Irish soldiers fought in WW1. It may represent Irish people duped into fighting for the British Army. They are British soldiers.

I do not find the lily's connections with the IRA to be negative in the least. Of course it has a special link to Easter 1916 but it represents all Ireland's patriot dead and I am quite happy to honour them.

Crooked Jack

donvito99 wrote: »

The day Gerry Adams stops wearing one.

I believe he also wears underwear. Are you opposed to it as well. What a sad life you must lead if your actions and opinions are based on what Gerry Adams does or doesnt do

awec

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The poppy does not represent Irish soldiers. No Irish soldiers fought in WW1. It may represent Irish people duped into fighting for the British Army. They are British soldiers.

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you come out with things like that?

Duped?

God forbid that these men felt that they wanted to get involved and help out. :rolleyes:

There were entire Irish divisions of the British Army at that time, I feel you are being a bit disrespectful toward the many Irish men who gave their lives during that period.

My name is URL

I wouldn't wear one, for the same reasons I wouldn't wear a Poppy etc. It's a pretty 'hallmark' way to show respect or remembrance for the dead imo.

If you really want to show respect, attend a ceremony with your family or visit the grave of your relatives etc. Wearing a silly plastic flower for one day of the year is a tad on the lazy side. And no matter what anyone says; some people do use it as a political gesture and can't shut up about it.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The poppy does not represent Irish soldiers. No Irish soldiers fought in WW1. It may represent Irish people duped into fighting for the British Army. They are British soldiers.

1. Fighting in the British army does not make you British.
2. The poppy does not commemorate British soldiers as pointed out to you before it was the Americans who first wore them.
3. The poppy is an international symbol used to commemorate all those who died in wars since 1914, it is not a British symbol.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I do not find the lily's connections with the IRA to be negative in the least. Of course it has a special link to Easter 1916 but it represents all Ireland's patriot dead and I am quite happy to honour them.

Honour terrorists all you want, freedom of expression and all that, but I won't be joining you. And thankfully from looking around the streets of our fair capital the vast majority of people agree with me.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

well, now you're just lying, yes they do.

Read your own quote.

"Today, they are mainly used in the UK and Canada to commemorate their servicemen and women who have been killed since 1914."

Mainly is not always and here is a counter example to prove it
"In the United States, the American Legion distributes crepe-paper poppies in exchange for contributions.[when?] "Poppy Day" is usually the same as or near Memorial Day in May.[35] However, many Legion groups also make poppies available around 11 November.[36]"

Both from the same wikipedia article.

Lelantos

Crooked Jack wrote: »

well, now you're just lying, yes they do.











The poppy does not represent Irish soldiers. No Irish soldiers fought in WW1. It may represent Irish people duped into fighting for the British Army. They are British soldiers.

I do not find the lily's connections with the IRA to be negative in the least. Of course it has a special link to Easter 1916 but it represents all Ireland's patriot dead and I am quite happy to honour them.

And the shark just got jumped

Crooked Jack

awec wrote: »

How do you expect to be taken seriously when you come out with things like that?

Duped?

God forbid that these men felt that they wanted to get involved and help out. :rolleyes:

There were entire Irish divisions of the British Army at that time, I feel you are being a bit disrespectful toward the many Irish men who gave their lives during that period.

Yes, duped. You really think the thousands of Irish Volunteers who signed up to be cannon fodder in Flanders on the word of Redmond that they would be rewarded with freedom actually had any interest in fighting England's wars for it.
They were told Home Rule would be their reward and they got the opposite.
Duped.
I wonder how many of them on returning home wished they had stood side by side with their comrades in Dublin rather than doing the british empire's dirty work.

hames

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Im sure sinn fein would love to see the SDLP, FF, FG, Labour and other Irish parties wearing the lily. It is not theirs, it's everybody's.

I wouldn't be so sure.

For all their supposed regrets over the troubles, there are those in SF who still think the havoc they wreaked in Northern Ireland entitles them to some higher or more noble tier in Irish Republicanism.