Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

CK73

Czarcasm wrote: »

Hopefully your submission gets a hearing CK and it won't have been your time wasted.


I wouldn't hold my breath though tbh.

I spoke to Pat Neary on the phone before sending it and he assured me that he would make sure the committee members got it. Other than that I can't really expect much else, other than I hope they read it and take in what I am saying and not just dismiss it.

The Sunday World have ruined a few lives today, the Swedish Model would ruin a hell of a lot more.

Czarcasm

CK73 wrote: »

I spoke to Pat Neary on the phone before sending it and he assured me that he would make sure the committee members got it. Other than that I can't really expect much else, other than I hope they read it and take in what I am saying and not just dismiss it.

I presume CK you've seen what Dr. Brooke Magnati has to say about same Pat Neary? In my own personal opinion he's the same as every politician- tells you what they think you want to hear:

http://sexonomics-uk.blogspot.ie/2013/01/irelands-justice-committee-hearings.html

The Sunday World have ruined a few lives today, the Swedish Model would ruin a hell of a lot more.

The Sunday World tbh about it CK is only a rag of a newspaper. I saw the headline this morning alright, still wouldn't have any interest in their sensationalist crap.

Daveysil15

Czarcasm wrote: »

The Sunday World tbh about it CK is only a rag of a newspaper. I saw the headline this morning alright, still wouldn't have any interest in their sensationalist crap.

They certainly went all out. Prostitutes who were also working as cleaners/babysitters. Tradesmen exchanging their services for sex. Naked cleaners, swingers, live sex shows. Of course this is all just part of the 'seedy underbelly' of Ireland as they like to call it. Any trafficked women reported seem to be either from Romania or Africa. It's always the same.

The Th!ng

Daveysil15 wrote: »

They certainly went all out. Prostitutes who were also working as cleaners/babysitters. Tradesmen exchanging their services for sex. Naked cleaners, swingers, live sex shows. Of course this is all just part of the 'seedy underbelly' of Ireland as they like to call it. Any trafficked women reported seem to be either from Romania or Africa. It's always the same.

Jeez, I'd say the TORL gang have shit themselves today reading all that, if they think they're ever going to stop this kind of thing they're deluded. Far better to just concentrate on those who are genuinely trafficked and leave the rest to get on with it. How could the Gardai police all this without wasting resources chasing consenting adults instead of helping the trafficking victims?

Czarcasm

Daveysil15 wrote: »

They certainly went all out. Prostitutes who were also working as cleaners/babysitters. Tradesmen exchanging their services for sex. Naked cleaners, swingers, live sex shows. Of course this is all just part of the 'seedy underbelly' of Ireland as they like to call it. Any trafficked women reported seem to be either from Romania or Africa. It's always the same.

Sounds like the makings of a "Carry On..." film tbh Dave :pac:

The "Irish" NOTW used report on those sorts of stories 20 years ago, the half of it just made up nonsense and spin, quite literally tabloid fodder! Nobody took any heed of them back then either!

Treora

Catherine MacKinnon expresses her point and displays her rational clearly here. Warburton remains an excellent interviewer inspite of everything.

http://philosophybites.com/2011/03/catherine-mackinnon-on-gender-crime.html

Perhaps a read around the fundamentals will help http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/34901

Or a few more podcasts http://philosophybites.com/2008/03/melissa-lane-on.html

Yamanoto

Treora wrote: »

Catherine MacKinnon expresses her point and displays her rational clearly here. Warburton remains an excellent interviewer inspite of everything.

http://philosophybites.com/2011/03/catherine-mackinnon-on-gender-crime.html

Perhaps a read around the fundamentals will help http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/34901

Or a few more podcasts [URL="'People just need to be told to do what I think is right :P'"]http://philosophybites.com/2008/03/melissa-lane-on.html[/URL]

Bad links above

SeanW

Czarcasm wrote: »

How would you suggest then that you present your case then, given that women and men who provide sexual services of their own free will are very much in the minority and hardly representative of the majority of sex workers who are drawn into the industry because they feel it is the only choice available to them in order to survive,

Whatever about the rest of your "contributions" I have to take you up on this:

Assuming for the sake argument, that the bolded bit is true (I don't know either way tbh) If someone works for McDonalds because they "feel it is the only choice available to them in order to survive" should we liken the customers of that McDonalds to exploititative bastards? Should we ban McDonalds?

The government has a duty to the welfare of all of it's citizens, not just the minority who willingly sell sex to the minority willing to pay for it.

Indeed they do - the government has a duty to all citizens, not to pass bad law for no reason. Targetting the those who willingly sell/buy sex for no reason would score them cheap political points with the religious right and the feminist left, but whose actual welfare would that promote?

SeanW

Treora wrote: »

Catherine MacKinnon expresses her point and displays her rational clearly here. Warburton remains an excellent interviewer inspite of everything.

http://philosophybites.com/2011/03/catherine-mackinnon-on-gender-crime.html

Perhaps a read around the fundamentals will help http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/34901

Or a few more podcasts [URL="http://'People just need to be told to do what I think is right :P'"]http://philosophybites.com/2008/03/melissa-lane-on.html[/URL]

By manually copying and pasting the first link I was able to listen to the podcast.

Ms. MacKinnon is proof of the damage that feminist left BS can do to the human mind.

1. "Gender crime" i.e. a crime committed by a man against a woman is necessarily worse than a crime. Because modern 21st century Western society is so deeply sexist against women.
2. Prostitutes who work out of choice don't exist. Therefore any man who visits a prostitute is guilty of "gender crime"
3. You should ignore any sex worker who claims to be working via free will because they all have multiple personality disorder and you can't possibly know who you're talking to.
4. War is "masculine" ...
5. Rape law is inadequate because it "only" considers situations where women are physically coerced into sex. It should be broadened to include (indeterminate) "social force" ...
6. Finally claims not to be interested in telling other people how to live and work :rolleyes:

It was pathetic, but what's scary is that there are people like that in positions of power.

CK73

SeanW wrote: »

By manually copying and pasting the first link I was able to listen to the podcast.

Ms. MacKinnon is proof of the damage that feminist left BS can do to the human mind.

1. "Gender crime" i.e. a crime committed by a man against a woman is necessarily worse than a crime. Because modern 21st century Western society is so deeply sexist against women.
2. Prostitutes who work out of choice don't exist. Therefore any man who visits a prostitute is guilty of "gender crime"
3. You should ignore any sex worker who claims to be working via free will because they all have multiple personality disorder and you can't possibly know who you're talking to.
4. War is "masculine" ...
5. Rape law is inadequate because it "only" considers situations where women are physically coerced into sex. It should be broadened to include (indeterminate) "social force" ...
6. Finally claims not to be interested in telling other people how to live and work :rolleyes:

It was pathetic, but what's scary is that there are people like that in positions of power.

2 & 3 definitely wayyyyy off the mark. They do exist, I am one! I only have the one personality, although I am forced to live a double life, due to the stigma attached to my job, which I personally hate and find very difficult, as I am a very honest person and don't like having to keep secrets. Sadly I have no choice, due to statements like these.

Czarcasm

SeanW wrote: »

Whatever about the rest of your "contributions" I have to take you up on this:

You're coming a bit late to the party with your "contributions", aren't you?

See what I did there? We can all act like condescending pricks, or we can actually contribute something worthwhile to the discussion. You haven't added anything worthwhile to the discussion, only highlighted that you clearly haven't read the whole thread, in which your point was addressed and answered on numerous occasions.

Assuming for the sake argument, that the bolded bit is true (I don't know either way tbh) If someone works for McDonalds because they "feel it is the only choice available to them in order to survive" should we liken the customers of that McDonalds to exploititative bastards? Should we ban McDonalds?

Your whole point is moot, because there's no comparison to working in a quantifible business where there is a set price on the product and the eurosaver menu is the very same in any mcdonalds you go to, the wages are the same, the working conditions are the same, the quality of the food is the same, and customers can see exactly how much they will pay for the service before they even approach the counter.

None of this can be applied to the services provided by sex workers because no two sex workers are the same, in any respect- they don't look the same, they don't charge the same, they don't give the same quality of service.

The food industry has regulated standards, based on quantifiable measurements and standards. You simply cannot apply those same measurements to sex work because there are no quantifiable measurements nor standards. In order to be able to regulate something it has to meet a standard.

The consumer knows what they are getting when they walk into a McDonalds, anywhere in the world. Can you say the same of sex workers the world over?

Second of all, if you had actually read through the thread, you would have seen from my "contributions" as you put it, that I am not advocating anyone work in McDonalds instead of being a sex worker. In case you hadn't noticed, I am saying there are OTHER CHOICES besides sex work.

Sex work is a cut throat industry like any other where only the cream of the crop rise to the top. They are in the minority. For the majority who see it as a fast way to get quick and easy money, they quickly discover that it's not so fast, and it sure as hell ain't easy.

Given a wider variety of choices, gives them more options, and in my experience (as I can only speak for myself), in all cases, each person, when shown that there were alternatives they could choose to sex work, chose the alternative. It's a small sample size I grant you, and the evidence is purely anecdotal, but I don't tend to think of people in terms of statistics because people are individuals, and no two people are the same. Statistics can only point out correlations based on similarities between individual people, but statistics take no account of the person as an individual when pertinent information might not always be so obvious or considered irrelevant depending on what the person or group commissioning the study hypothesises.

Indeed they do - the government has a duty to all citizens, not to pass bad law for no reason. Targetting the those who willingly sell/buy sex for no reason would score them cheap political points with the religious right and the feminist left, but whose actual welfare would that promote?

If you read through my "contributions" at all, you would have noticed I have even less time for politicians than I do condescending pricks. How and ever anyway- the law as it stands isn't there for "no reason" as you so ineffectively tried to downplay the issue. The law is there to protect the citizens of it's country. And there is a minority that want that law changed. Before you start spouting about oppressing a minority, etc, that minority has a commercial interest in seeing the law reformed. Theirs is a stake of financial gain, at the expense of the welfare of the majority of sex workers who do not engage willingly in the industry, the same majority who are vulnerable to being usurped by the affluent minority of willing sex workers who would seek to gain a monopoly stranglehold on the market.

Regulation you say? Just ask any sex worker would they like to see the industry regulated. Come back to me when you get your answer. I can tell you already that "regulation" is a dirty word for any sex worker, because that'll mean the government and revenue will have the power to dictate the standards for the industry, and revenue will have the power to investigate the sex workers income. No sex worker is gonna buy that deal, they're far from stupid.

As for your religious or feminist assertions, well you seem to be fond of labels and covering all the bases, but I am neither a God bothering Mary Whitehouse, nor a militant feminist Valerie Solanas.

Treora

links fixed.

"Regulation you say? Just ask any sex worker would they like to see the industry regulated."

OK - if it was not for the guilt, public shame and hate mantra of TORL we could, but TORL seeks evidence that fits its policy rather than evidence (full spectrum of sex workers) and make its policy fit it.

Czarcasm

Treora wrote: »

links fixed.

"Regulation you say? Just ask any sex worker would they like to see the industry regulated."

OK - if it was not for the guilt, public shame and hate mantra of TORL we could, but TORL seeks evidence that fits its policy rather than evidence (full spectrum of sex workers) and make its policy fit it.

Treora I'm not really understanding the point you're trying to make here, nor how it relates to what you quoted of mine. Before this thread ever existed I had no idea who TORL were or that they even existed tbh. The guilt, public shame etc were part and parcel of sex work before TORL or their ilk ever existed too.

Even CK above as she admits herself has to live a "double life" because of the guilt, the stigma, and the public shame she feels from society at large, not some pack of biddy hate mongerers that are only a tiny group of people in Ireland, having no effect on her work in the UK.

That has nothing to do with regulating the industry. If I'm to understand you correctly do you mean that regulation in the industry would "normalise" it as such in society? Even in countries where both the buying and selling of sex is legal Treora, there is still that undeniable stigma attached, just look at Thailand and The Netherlands as classic examples of same.

I still say no independent and affluent sex worker would ever want the industry regulated because that would take control of their own lives as they see it, out of their hands, and put it in the hands of the government. In other words, they want the protection of the state, but they don't feel they should owe the state anything in return.

I couldn't even imagine sex workers themselves could even agree between themselves on how to regulate the industry because not every sex worker is going to agree with the standards set by another, and even in the unlikely event that standards were agreed, regulation was put in place and legislation to allow sex workers to operate freely, legally and safely in this country, that still wouldn't do anything to solve the problem of people who get into the industry because they feel there is no other option available to them, or that sex work is the easiest option available to them, and then undercutting the set price off the books.

You're also not factoring in that in order to introduce standards, you would have to teach people thinking about getting into the industry about self assessment tax, health care, financial management, etc. How many sex workers would actually care about any of that?

My guess is not too many, except for the well educated few that flourish in the industry and are able to operate at a higher level than the poorly educated person that sees sex work as "it's easy and enjoyable because I enjoy sex anyway, and I get paid to do a job I love", and thinks the rest of the world are "just jealous".

CK73

Czarcasm wrote: »

Treora I'm not really understanding the point you're trying to make here, nor how it relates to what you quoted of mine. Before this thread ever existed I had no idea who TORL were or that they even existed tbh. The guilt, public shame etc were part and parcel of sex work before TORL or their ilk ever existed too.

Even CK above as she admits herself has to live a "double life" because of the guilt, the stigma, and the public shame she feels from society at large, not some pack of biddy hate mongerers that are only a tiny group of people in Ireland, having no effect on her work in the UK.

That has nothing to do with regulating the industry. If I'm to understand you correctly do you mean that regulation in the industry would "normalise" it as such in society? Even in countries where both the buying and selling of sex is legal Treora, there is still that undeniable stigma attached, just look at Thailand and The Netherlands as classic examples of same.

I still say no independent and affluent sex worker would ever want the industry regulated because that would take control of their own lives as they see it, out of their hands, and put it in the hands of the government. In other words, they want the protection of the state, but they don't feel they should owe the state anything in return.

I couldn't even imagine sex workers themselves could even agree between themselves on how to regulate the industry because not every sex worker is going to agree with the standards set by another, and even in the unlikely event that standards were agreed, regulation was put in place and legislation to allow sex workers to operate freely, legally and safely in this country, that still wouldn't do anything to solve the problem of people who get into the industry because they feel there is no other option available to them, or that sex work is the easiest option available to them, and then undercutting the set price off the books.

You're also not factoring in that in order to introduce standards, you would have to teach people thinking about getting into the industry about self assessment tax, health care, financial management, etc. How many sex workers would actually care about any of that?

My guess is not too many, except for the well educated few that flourish in the industry and are able to operate at a higher level than the poorly educated person that sees sex work as "it's easy and enjoyable because I enjoy sex anyway, and I get paid to do a job I love", and thinks the rest of the world are "just jealous".

I am 100% guilt free. I don't know where you got that from?

Czarcasm

CK73 wrote: »

I am 100% guilt free. I don't know where you got that from?

From here:

CK73 wrote: »

2 & 3 definitely wayyyyy off the mark. They do exist, I am one! I only have the one personality, although I am forced to live a double life, due to the stigma attached to my job, which I personally hate and find very difficult, as I am a very honest person and don't like having to keep secrets. Sadly I have no choice, due to statements like these.

Apologies if I seem to have taken you up wrong CK, wasn't the intention.

CK73

CK73 wrote: »

I am 100% guilt free. I don't know where you got that from?

Having had the time to read the whole of your post, I think you are suggesting that their are a minority that are capable of working for themselves in this industry, while others would feel stigmatized and unable to do the 'business side' by them selves, but continue anyway. I believe this is why brothels and parlours exist? If they were made legal, then they would be 'employed' and get a p45 the same as anyone else in employment.

I know for a fact I am not a minority. Things are changing, a long site the crest of the wave of the internet. Women are taking responsibility for their own finances and choosing to work in the sex industry to pay their way. It doesn't take the brains of a brain surgeon to do that. I think you are underestimating women by a long mark.

DEFTLEFTHAND

The oldest profession in the world as they say.

CK73

Czarcasm wrote: »

From here:




Apologies if I seem to have taken you up wrong CK, wasn't the intention.

Please do not misinterpret this as guilt for what I do. I don't like the dishonesty, as my family are subject to the same media that I was before I started and I personally thought Escorts were the scum of the earth before I started. I do not blame my family if they feel the same way and am not willing to test them to see if that is the case. I do not like lying to them and being decietful, but that to me is a problem caused by the media and not from the actual job I do. I have no guilt due to being an Escort. I have difficulties with the fact that I am having to be dishonest in order to continue my work, without making my son feel like he has forced his Mother to be raped and abused and my Mother to feel like she had let me down by not being able to support me financially.

I am not a victim, but that is what society would have me as. Either that or a whore and I am neither.

aare

CK73 wrote: »

I am 100% guilt free.

Same here...can't even imagine why I would feel an iota of guilt...or shame...

I have always believed that if anyone should feel guilt or shame it is the society that gave me no options on using sex work to survive and then persecuted me for it...

...and before anyone jumps on that there are still no real, viable options I could have used at that time. The rescue orgs are an empty, hypocritical scam that has nothing to offer anyone except conditional indoctrination and exploitation...to say that would not have worked for me would be putting it very politely indeed.

I genuinely believe everyone should be offered real, viable options to sex work (though of course that will never happen in the real world whatever false claims are made for political agenda) but that once being done they should be left make up their own minds about what is best for them, then left in peace to get on with that.

Czarcasm

CK73 wrote: »

Having had the time to read the whole of your post, I think you are suggesting that their are a minority that are capable of working for themselves in this industry, while others would feel stigmatized and unable to do the 'business side' by them selves, but continue anyway. I believe this is why brothels and parlours exist? If they were made legal, then they would be 'employed' and get a p45 the same as anyone else in employment.

Not that others would feel stigmatised CK, but that they wouldn't have the education and be as well informed as you are. Third level educated sex workers ARE a minority. You've even said yourself you wouldn't work in a brothel, but you expect less well educated sex workers to do so? As in you're better than working in a brothel because you are well educated, but the less well educated sex workers can work for somebody else.

You don't see the disjointed thinking there, no?

I know for a fact I am not a minority. Things are changing, a long site the crest of the wave of the internet. Women are taking responsibility for their own finances and choosing to work in the sex industry to pay their way. It doesn't take the brains of a brain surgeon to do that. I think you are underestimating women by a long mark.

Cheers for that obvious little sideswipe. Not once, not, even ONCE, have I limited my definition of sex workers to women only, so your suggestion that I look down on or underestimate women is WAY off the mark, not to mention that if you read any of my posts, I've been saying the same thing all throughout this thread- I'm not the one that underestimates anybody! I see fantastic potential in EVERYBODY, be they woman, man or child, so to try and wedge in that I'm looking down on women in any way, well, you're just wrong.

As for your "it doesn't take a brain surgeon" comment- Brain surgeons are no more intelligent than anyone else. There are plenty of sex workers I've met that could be brain surgeons if they had the same knowledge as brain surgeons. And that is the problem- many sex workers don't have the same knowledge or information as you do, so they can be as intelligent as they like, but without educating them, they're as susceptible to failure as a brain surgeon with no knowledge of what they're doing

morlock_

The highest rates of human trafficking/sex slavery are in countries with legalised prostitution. Just a statistical fact I'm afraid.

Three Seasons

aare wrote: »

Same here...can't even imagine why I would feel an iota of guilt...or shame...

I have always believed that if anyone should feel guilt or shame it is the society that gave me no options on using sex work to survive and then persecuted me for it...

...and before anyone jumps on that there are still no real, viable options I could have used at that time. The rescue orgs are an empty, hypocritical scam that has nothing to offer anyone except conditional indoctrination and exploitation...to say that would not have worked for me would be putting it very politely indeed.

I genuinely believe everyone should be offered real, viable options to sex work (though of course that will never happen in the real world whatever false claims are made for political agenda) but that once being done they should be left make up their own minds about what is best for them, then left in peace to get on with that.

What options should people given?

Three Seasons

morlock_ wrote: »

The highest rates of human trafficking/sex slavery are in countries with legalised prostitution. Just a statistical fact I'm afraid.

How is this data calculated and verified?

morlock_

Three Seasons wrote: »

How is this data calculated and verified?

There's plenty of data out there if you look.

The top destination for sex slaves (women) are countries with legalised prostituion. That's a verifiable fact through UN Office on Drugs and Crime information.

Do you think these women enjoy selling their body for money? . . .

Three Seasons

morlock_ wrote: »

There's plenty of data out there if you look.

The top destination for sex slaves (women) are countries with legalised prostituion. That's a verifiable fact through UN Office on Drugs and Crime information.

Do you think these women enjoy selling their body for money? . . .

All I did was ask where you got your information.

Why the confused face?

Czarcasm

CK73 wrote: »

Please do not misinterpret this as guilt for what I do. I don't like the dishonesty, as my family are subject to the same media that I was before I started and I personally thought Escorts were the scum of the earth before I started. I do not blame my family if they feel the same way and am not willing to test them to see if that is the case. I do not like lying to them and being decietful, but that to me is a problem caused by the media and not from the actual job I do. I have no guilt due to being an Escort. I have difficulties with the fact that I am having to be dishonest in order to continue my work, without making my son feel like he has forced his Mother to be raped and abused and my Mother to feel like she had let me down by not being able to support me financially.

I'm finding it difficult to pin down who exactly you're blaming for the negative perception of sex workers. On the one hand you say you thought they were scum, your family doesn't think a whole lot different (so this would be society), and then on the other hand, you're blaming the media.

The media want to sell what the people want to hear. it's not a chicken and egg situation. People think a certain way, and they will side with anything that reinforces their point of view. The media only feeds into what people want to hear. If you want to change the negative perception of sex workers, then you start with society, you don't go blaming the media for giving people what they want. The media are in the business of making money, they really couldn't give less of a fcuk about society.

If you don't want your child to think of his mother as raped and abused, then you educate and inform him, the same as you would educate and inform him that people getting shot on tv are only actors, it's not real. There are people that get shot in real life, but what you see on tv or in a game, that's not real.

In the same way, you educate and inform him (as you are doing here), that not all sex workers are the scum of society like certain sections in the media would have you believe. I'm sure you'll educate him at some stage too that the porn actors are just that, it's acting. It's not real.

You can inform and educate your mother the same way, though whether she'll be as receptive to the idea, is anybody's guess. One thing I will reiterate is that you should never underestimate people. You are your mother's daughter first and foremost before you are a sex worker, and I would hope your mother would see it that way too, no matter what her opinions are of sex workers.

The best example of a change in society's thinking is that of the perception of LGBT people. That change in society's attitude was brought about by people, not by the media, but by people. That is why homosexual behaviour was decriminalised here in 1993, not because of political pressure, not because of media campaigns, but because of people decades beforehand, planting the seeds of a change in attitude in society towards people who were LGBT. We still have a long way to go yet, but society doesn't change overnight just because the law changes at the stroke of a pen.

I am not a victim, but that is what society would have me as. Either that or a whore and I am neither.

Trust me CK, there's only a small minority in society that see sex workers as victims, there's another small minority that see sex workers as scum. Then there's the majority of society that couldn't care less as long as it's not happening in their back yard.

Terms like whore, prostitute, gigolo, etc, they are all generally accepted terms used to describe sex workers. You may not like it, and you may prefer the term escort, but like I have been told many times in this thread alone- people don't care what you think. I'd be a bit more polite about it and say society doesn't care what you think as an individual. If you want to change people's perceptions, then start with those closest to you. Politicians won't and don't give a fiddlers, they can only change the laws that govern a society, but they can't change the way people think as individuals. Only the people closest to them can do that.

morlock_

Three Seasons wrote: »

All I did was ask where you got your information.

Why the confused face?

Sorry, I just thought you were one of these people that can't believe sex slavery exists.

I'm sure sex slavery exists in all countries but according to the data, it's much higher where prostitution is legalised.

Czarcasm

aare wrote: »

Same here...can't even imagine why I would feel an iota of guilt...or shame...

I have always believed that if anyone should feel guilt or shame it is the society that gave me no options on using sex work to survive and then persecuted me for it...

So you feel no guilt nor shame because you think it's ok to blame "society" for the mess you found yourself in. "Society" didn't force you into sex work, and I presume you knew the perception of sex workers before you ever got into it, so "society" didn't persecute you personally. Remember that "victim" thing myself and CK discussed earlier? Well I don't have much time for anyone with a victim complex who seeks to blame "society" for their failures. I would suggest they learn the meaning of personal responsibility and stop trying to blame anyone else for the choices they made for themselves.

...and before anyone jumps on that there are still no real, viable options I could have used at that time. The rescue orgs are an empty, hypocritical scam that has nothing to offer anyone except conditional indoctrination and exploitation...to say that would not have worked for me would be putting it very politely indeed.

I jumped on it aare because it's simply not true. There are hundreds of alternatives to sex work. It just depends on how willing you are to seek out those alternatives rather than get into the sex industry crying "society made me do it, and now they're persecuting me...". Now THAT'S nonsense. You're trying to say you had no part to play in your own destiny. You had plenty of options. You just didn't want to acknowledge them because they required a bit more effort than sex work.

Why do you only see the rescue orgs as the only alternative? "Society" isn't forcing people into them now are they?

I genuinely believe everyone should be offered real, viable options to sex work (though of course that will never happen in the real world whatever false claims are made for political agenda)

Ehh, there are numerous occupations to consider as options besides sex work. Nobody is going to hand you a job either. Bloody hell do you want to be spoon fed altogether? Teaching people about personal responsibility early on is how you avoid the pitfalls caused by a lack of personal responsibility in later life.

I'm sure a neurologist put in the ground work to become a neurologist because they understood the meaning of personal responsibility and knew that if they didn't put in the ground work, they wouldn't succeed later on. A solid foundation in personal responsibility is everything.

but that once being done they should be left make up their own minds about what is best for them, then left in peace to get on with that.

See this is more of it, you want the help when it suits you, and then tell people to pìss off when you feel you're sorted. You expect that you don't have to give anything back. There's nobody will want to help you if that's the attitude, and as for being left in peace to get on with it, I think that's the first thing that made me laugh in this thread, simply because no matter what occupation you're in, or whatever lifestyle you choose, you will never, ever... ever ever ever, be just left to get on with it!

CK73

Czarcasm wrote: »

I'm finding it difficult to pin down who exactly you're blaming for the negative perception of sex workers. On the one hand you say you thought they were scum, your family doesn't think a whole lot different (so this would be society), and then on the other hand, you're blaming the media.

The media want to sell what the people want to hear. it's not a chicken and egg situation. People think a certain way, and they will side with anything that reinforces their point of view. The media only feeds into what people want to hear. If you want to change the negative perception of sex workers, then you start with society, you don't go blaming the media for giving people what they want. The media are in the business of making money, they really couldn't give less of a fcuk about society.

If you don't want your child to think of his mother as raped and abused, then you educate and inform him, the same as you would educate and inform him that people getting shot on tv are only actors, it's not real. There are people that get shot in real life, but what you see on tv or in a game, that's not real.

In the same way, you educate and inform him (as you are doing here), that not all sex workers are the scum of society like certain sections in the media would have you believe. I'm sure you'll educate him at some stage too that the porn actors are just that, it's acting. It's not real.

You can inform and educate your mother the same way, though whether she'll be as receptive to the idea, is anybody's guess. One thing I will reiterate is that you should never underestimate people. You are your mother's daughter first and foremost before you are a sex worker, and I would hope your mother would see it that way too, no matter what her opinions are of sex workers.

The best example of a change in society's thinking is that of the perception of LGBT people. That change in society's attitude was brought about by people, not by the media, but by people. That is why homosexual behaviour was decriminalised here in 1993, not because of political pressure, not because of media campaigns, but because of people decades beforehand, planting the seeds of a change in attitude in society towards people who were LGBT. We still have a long way to go yet, but society doesn't change overnight just because the law changes at the stroke of a pen.





Trust me CK, there's only a small minority in society that see sex workers as victims, there's another small minority that see sex workers as scum. Then there's the majority of society that couldn't care less as long as it's not happening in their back yard.

Terms like whore, prostitute, gigolo, etc, they are all generally accepted terms used to describe sex workers. You may not like it, and you may prefer the term escort, but like I have been told many times in this thread alone- people don't care what you think. I'd be a bit more polite about it and say society doesn't care what you think as an individual. If you want to change people's perceptions, then start with those closest to you. Politicians won't and don't give a fiddlers, they can only change the laws that govern a society, but they can't change the way people think as individuals. Only the people closest to them can do that.

As you said, they don't care unless it's in their own backyard and then they do care. If I went around telling people what I am doing now, then what is the likelihood I could get a job working with children? Working in any position or responsibility? I know a lady who was working as a Nurse and Escorting part-time to make up what she needed and upon being discovered, she was sacked. Is that fair? Be it Society or the Media, which I think greatly encourages the stigma, along with pending legislation aimed to criminalize clients, which by no uncertain terms says it is wrong. It is far too simplistic to say start educating at home.

Also, even if they do accept what I am doing, which I would hope they would (but many families don't). Then they are living with a secret, as they have to decide if they want their friends and colleagues to know the truth, as then they have to cope with the prejudice of others and have to be able to stand up to that. They could also lose their jobs through association.

There was a life before Escorting and there will be life after Escorting, if I am able to keep the secret, it could be a continued good life, but if the secret comes out, then I doubt the prospects would be anything like as good. It's not a situation that I am prepared to risk.

Also relationships come into this. How many men could cope with the idea of being with an Escort? Even an ex- Escort. For some reason many people believe it is a job that you can't leave behind and that you would not be able to resist the temptation of making good money again should you fall on hard times etc. At least if no one else knows, you get to choose when you tell your potential partner of you past and not have people put off before even meeting, because, 'Oh look, there is the woman who was a prostitute' is whispered across the room, every time you walk in.

It's funny, as no one cares what job I did before, or worries that I might want to do them again and yet you are defined by this job.

As it happens, I don't think my son would react badly, as we have discussed prostitution from time to time and he sees nothing wrong with it, but, as I have been teaching him to value relationships and have sex within them. I would look hypocritical in his eyes and I need him to trust my judgement and what I tell him. It's about respect and I would worry that having lied to him, this would change negatively. I do also worry that, although he says that he has no problem with it, that if he knew I was doing it, purely to fund his education and keep him in a home, he would feel that he was some how responsible, which he isn't.

My Mum would not understand in a month of Sundays. No point going there.

Czarcasm

CK73 wrote: »

As you said, they don't care unless it's in their own backyard and then they do care. If I went around telling people what I am doing now, then what is the likelihood I could get a job working with children? Working in any position or responsibility?

I don't know CK, is my honest answer to that one. Like any prospectiove job applicant I suppose you'd tailor your CV accordingly. I've had to go through three separate Garda vetting applications for three positions I hold now, voluntary unpaid positions I might add, but still positions of responsibility. If you have never been arrested for anything, I'm sure you'd be fine. I'd hire you in a heartbeat as PR manager tbh, because you're damn good at it!


I extended an invitation to you at the start of this thread to come and work with me, still no word. Am I to assume you're not interested? Because if you're going to tell me not to assume anything, then you shouldn't be so ready to assume that you'll automatically get turned down for a job because you're currently self-employed as a sex worker! There are many businesses crying out for talented people with people skills, after that you can teach them the technical stuff.

I know a lady wht was working as a Nurse and Escorting part-time to make up what she needed and upon being discovered, she was sacked. Is that fair?

Well it depends on how you look at it, on the one hand she is an adult who signed a contract of employment, she broke the terms of that contract. She was fired. It's not brain surgery.


Now you could look at it the other way and say the hospital may have lost a good nurse. But then if they let her slide, they start off on a slippery slope, and thereby putting the hospital at risk of being sued. Money talks as they say.

Be it Society or the Media, which I think greatly encourages the stigma, along with pending legislation aimed to criminalize clients, which by no uncertain terms says it is wrong. It is far too simplistic to say start educating at home.

Is it though? It seems to have worked in the past for other issues. Ohh that's right, you expect it to happen overnight automatically at the stroke of a politicians pen.


No, that's not going to happen.

Also, even if they do accept what I am doing, which I would hope they would (but many families don't). Then they are living with a secret, as they have to decide if they want their friends and colleagues to know the truth, as then they have to cope with the prejudice of others and have to be able to stand up to that. They could also lose their jobs through association

Right. So the very thing I was ripped to shreds for all throughout this thread that people mistakenly believed I was doing (thinking for other people), you're now doing that and thinking people can't fend for themselves and they shouldn't be allowed think for themselves and make up their own minds, because it doesn't suit you... Isn't that interesting?


The bolded bit you know well isn't true, I won't even entertain that kind of scaremongering.

There was a life before Escorting and there will be life after Escorting, if I am able to keep the secret, it could be a continued good life, but if the secret comes out, then I doubt the prospects would be anything like as good. It's not a situation that I am prepared to risk.

Up to you CK, but then don't say society, and the media, and the politicians, and anyone else, is to blame for a perception which you haven't done anything yourself to change.


It's funny that whole level of risk and reward thing- you'll have sex with strangers, because the money is good, and you've gone on here about what a great life it is and how it hasn't done you any harm, etc, and you'll take THAT risk... but you wouldn't take the risk of telling those closest to you about it, and informing them and educating them, nor putting it down on your CV in case it harmed your prospects for working with children?


You're sending out more mixed messages there CK than a Mars probe!

Also relationships come into this. How many men could cope with the idea of being with an Escort? Even an ex- Escort. For some reason many people believe it is a job that you can't leave behind and that you would not be able to resist the temptation of making good money again should you fall on hard times etc. At least if no one else knows, you get to choose when you tell your potential partner of you past and not have people put off before even meeting, because, 'Oh look, there is the woman who was a prostitute' is whispered across the room, every time you walk in.

That wouldn't be you underestimating men now would it? Because you tried to say I was underestimating women earlier and you were shown to be completely wrong. But now you think it's ok for you to underestimate men? Have at it CK at this stage as far as I'm concerned, I'm finding it hard to take you seriously any more. Also what you're doing there at the end of that last paragraph is called projecting.

It's funny, as no one cares what job I did before, or worries that I might want to do them again and yet you are defined by this job.

...said the neurologist, architect, solicitor, surgeon, fries technician...


See where I'm going CK? You could say the same about any job.

As it happens, I don't think my son would react badly, as we have discussed prostitution from time to time and he sees nothing wrong with it, but, as I have been teaching him to value relationships and have sex within them. I would look hypocritical in his eyes and I need him to trust my judgement and what I tell him.

Well your son wouldn't be far off the mark were he to think you were a hypocrite surely?


If you want him to trust your judgement, tell him the truth. I was collecting my wife one night after a meeting and I had my son with me. I was approached by two young girls who asked me did I want to do business. I politely declined saying I was just waiting for my wife. So they chatted away then to my son and he had his atlas with him and the girls were showing him where they were from, etc, until suddenly they got up and just walked on. I wasn't surprised by this as all the while they were chatting to my son, I had one eye on my son, and one eye on the girl's pimp across the road in a silver BMW watching them, then ringing one of the girls on her mobile. My son thought it was his fault and I just told him that the girls were meant to be working and their boss told them to move on, it wasn't his fault at all. He understood that a lot better than wondering what the hell happened.


So you see on the one hand I get that you need to trust your judgement in what you tell him, but there's no need to be a hypocrite about it.

It's about respect and I would worry that having lied to him, this would change negatively. I do also worry that, although he says that he has no problem with it, that if he knew I was doing it, purely to fund his education and keep him in a home, he would feel that he was some how responsible, which he isn't.

Keep that to yourself CK, there are people around these parts that would lambast you for doing your son's thinking for him. I'm not one of them btw as I understand that children need to be given the information when they're mature enough and ready for it and they need guidance, not to be taught to be so judgemental of others who differ from themselves in some way or have a different point of view.

My Mum would not understand in a month of Sundays. No point going there.

Yeah, I get that CK, because she has a long held belief that sex workers are scum, such a long held belief in fact that she passed it on to you, and now you are passing it on to your son by not educating him either and letting him make up his own mind on how he feels about sex work. You underestimate him, and he may just surprise you.


Now, I'm off to get ready for a christening at five o clock. I've been asked to be Godfather to my brother's son. The same brother who along with the rest of my family fell out with me over my choices in life and we didn't talk for a good ten years. We've only recently been back in contact for the last four years, during which time the rest of the family seem to have come round to the idea that I as an individual am not a scumbag.


My mothers still batsh�t crazy though, so I get where you're coming from CK