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Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

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  • 17-02-2013 3:40pm
    #1
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭


    The Justice Committee is currently carrying out a review of prostitution legislation. They have heard from 15 anti-prostitution organisations already, including 2 Magdalene nuns, but they are only hearing from 1 sex worker.

    This has been reported in the Sindo today
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/escort-web-firm-hits-out-at-rte-sex-work-expose-29076081.html

    It is grossly unfair that the people who sell sex are being excluded like this from a consultation which is about their lives, and may lead to new laws brought in that further criminalise prostitution, drive it more underground and make selling sex more dangerous.

    What do you think? Why will the Government not hear from the only people who can truly tell them what prostitution in Ireland is like?


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    #2
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Tough one to call actually.

    You could compare it to the Government trying to legalise drugs, should they meet with the drug dealers in this case?


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    #3
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    P_1 wrote: »
    Tough one to call actually.

    You could compare it to the Government trying to legalise drugs, should they meet with the drug dealers in this case?

    Prostitution is legal so the drug dealer in your example would be Diageo.

    And yes, they should talk with Diageo when discussing alcohol legislation.


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    #4
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    P_1 wrote: »
    Tough one to call actually.

    You could compare it to the Government trying to legalise drugs, should they meet with the drug dealers in this case?

    But in this case the government is largely being told by anti-prostitution organisations that all those who sell sex are victims who don't do so willingly.


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    #5
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    OP you hardly expect the government to be seen to be encouraging prostitution do you?


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    #6
    Strawberry Fields
    Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭Strawberry Fields


    Yes looks like they are just going through the motions of a consultation to arrive at the conclusion they want anyway.
    This country is still very catholic I'm surprised people don't realise that more.


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    #7
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    The old slogan "Nothing About Us Without Us!", which is often used to communicate the idea that no policy should be decided by any representative without the full and direct participation of members the group(s) affected by that policy, applies here I think.

    Government is hearing from all these people telling them about sex work, but won't listen to actual sex workers, bar token gesture of they'll let 1 speak it seems. The hearing the 1 sex worker speaks at will probably also be private and not transcribed, thus off the record and easily ignored.


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    #8
    IceFjoem
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭IceFjoem


    Prostitutes aren't exactly an authority on social policy making. Other than "I have sex for money" I can't imagine they'd have a highly valuable input tbf.


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    #9
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    OP you hardly expect the government to be seen to be encouraging prostitution do you?

    I don't think allowing sex workers to talk about their lives, instead of only allowing others to talk about their lives, is encouraging prostitution, it's getting to the truth about a matter.


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    #10
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    IceFjoem wrote: »
    Prostitutes aren't exactly an authority on social policy making. Other than "I have sex for money" I can't imagine they'd have a highly valuable input tbf.

    But prostitutes are an authority on prostitution.


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    #11
    Best username ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Best username ever


    IceFjoem wrote: »
    Prostitutes aren't exactly an authority on social policy making. Other than "I have sex for money" I can't imagine they'd have a highly valuable input tbf.

    What has sinking the banana got to do with it?


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    #12
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    IceFjoem wrote: »
    Prostitutes aren't exactly an authority on social policy making. Other than "I have sex for money" I can't imagine they'd have a highly valuable input tbf.

    I'd strongly disagree. But if they are always ignored and denied a voice nobody will ever know.


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    #13
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    They could.legalize it and tax the sex workers.,
    Legalizing prositution.could actured cut anyone who is.being trafficked against their will and also make it easier for.prositutes.to come.forward and report sexual attacks and even sexual exploitation


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    #14
    Logical_Bear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 799 ✭✭✭Logical_Bear


    P_1 wrote: »
    Tough one to call actually.

    You could compare it to the Government trying to legalise drugs, should they meet with the drug dealers in this case?

    sh1te analogy(but you got your whored thanks..excuse the pun!),either that or it was a typo and you meant drug user?


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    #15
    Seachmall
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Sin City wrote: »
    They could.legalize it and tax the sex workers.,
    Legalizing prositution.could actured cut anyone who is.being trafficked against their will and also make it easier for.prositutes.to come.forward and report sexual attacks and even sexual exploitation

    Prostitution is already legal in Ireland.


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    #16
    spankysue
    Registered Users Posts: 591 ✭✭✭spankysue


    I agree with you OP, the people who would be directly affected by this law should be consulted first.

    I think it should be fully legalised and regulated anyway, as long as it's consenting adults, what's the harm?


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    #17
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,751 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    sexworkie wrote: »
    The Justice Committee is currently carrying out a review of prostitution legislation. They have heard from 15 anti-prostitution organisations already, including 2 Magdalene nuns, but they are only hearing from 1 sex worker.

    This has been reported in the Sindo today
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/escort-web-firm-hits-out-at-rte-sex-work-expose-29076081.html

    It is grossly unfair that the people who sell sex are being excluded like this from a consultation which is about their lives, and may lead to new laws brought in that further criminalise prostitution, drive it more underground and make selling sex more dangerous.

    What do you think? Why will the Government not hear from the only people who can truly tell them what prostitution in Ireland is like?

    There seems to be a lot of politics in the sex work industry. I only looked it up because of your reference to the Magdelenes which I found curious. Apparently Ruhama which I have heard of before are the new Magdalenes.

    http://sexwork.ie/2013/02/06/sex-worker-hearing-shambles/comment-page-1/


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    #18
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Prostitution is already legal in Ireland.

    Yes it is , but still looked down the workers are seen as less than human and itsnot taxed. Having two girls working together for safty or even in the same building is illegal. (Brothel)


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    #19
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    Sin City wrote: »
    They could.legalize it and tax the sex workers.,
    Legalizing prositution.could actured cut anyone who is.being trafficked against their will and also make it easier for.prositutes.to come.forward and report sexual attacks and even sexual exploitation

    In terms of prostitution, legalisations usually refers to policies in place in countries like the Netherlands and Germany, where there are legal brothels. Arguably this simply wouldn't be appropriate in Ireland.

    However what many sex workers want is decriminalisation like in New Zealand, which would allow sex workers to form small collectives. At the moment sex workers are forced to work alone by the Irish laws that say if 2 or more sex workers work together it is a brothel and they are all guilty of brothel keeping. Obviously it is undesirable, in terms of safety especially, that sex workers are forced to work alone to work legally.

    These are things you will never hear if you don't talk to sex workers though, which is why it is so wrong sex workers are being excluded here.


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    #20
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Apparently Ruhama which I have heard of before are the new Magdalenes.

    Yes, there was an article about this in Irish Times some time ago:
    http://www.paddydoyle.com/laundry-orders-run-sex-workers-aid-group/


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    #21
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    sexworkie wrote: »
    In terms of prostitution, legalisations usually refers to policies in place in countries like the Netherlands and Germany, where there are legal brothels. Arguably this simply wouldn't be appropriate in Ireland.

    However what many sex workers want is decriminalisation like in New Zealand, which would allow sex workers to form small collectives. At the moment sex workers are forced to work alone by the Irish laws that say if 2 or more sex workers work together it is a brothel and they are all guilty of brothel keeping. Obviously it is undesirable, in terms of safety especially, that sex workers are forced to work alone to work legally.

    These are things you will never hear if you don't talk to sex workers though, which is why it is so wrong sex workers are being excluded here.


    Ideally yes that would be the answer but I dont think the Irish government are that liberal that they would allow the New Zealand model exist in Ireland, especailly with Ruhama pushing the Swedish model and the Turn Off the Red Light, getting more exposure than Turn off the Blue Light and the Sex Workers Allience.


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    #22
    im invisible
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,372 ✭✭✭im invisible


    Sin City wrote: »
    ... and also make it easier for.prositutes.to come.
    nice placement of the full stop there


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    #23
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    sexworkie wrote: »

    I don't think allowing sex workers to talk about their lives, instead of only allowing others to talk about their lives, is encouraging prostitution, it's getting to the truth about a matter.


    How would you suggest then that you present your case then, given that women and men who provide sexual services of their own free will are very much in the minority and hardly representative of the majority of sex workers who are drawn into the industry because they feel it is the only choice available to them in order to survive, not to mention those that are forced into the industry against their will.

    The government has a duty to the welfare of all of it's citizens, not just the minority who willingly sell sex to the minority willing to pay for it.


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    #24
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    im invisible wrote: »
    nice placement of the full stop there

    What can I say, Im re inventing grammar as I go aswell as inuendo and its nothing to do with using the phone to type. Honest


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    #25
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    How would you suggest then that you present your case then, given that women and men who provide sexual services of their own free will are very much in the minority and hardly representative of the majority of sex workers who are drawn into the industry because they feel it is the only choice available to them in order to survive, not to mention those that are forced into the industry against their will.

    The government has a duty to the welfare of all of it's citizens, not just the minority who willingly sell sex to the minority willing to pay for it.

    Do you have the full statistics to show the range of forced sex workers and free will sex workers?


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    #26
    MaxSteele
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭MaxSteele


    Why the feck are nuns and 'aul biddies from Ruhuma (well past menopause), even being consulted on their opinion ?

    Exclude those dinosaurs and come to an agreement with the actual street workers and "brothel keepers". You'll get no where progressive with that other shower and their "turn off the red light" campaign.


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    #27
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    The government has a duty to the welfare of all of it's citizens, not just the minority who willingly sell sex to the minority willing to pay for it.

    This notion that the majority of sex workers are not willingly sex workers is coming from religious organisations like Ruhama. Why should they be able to speak over all sex workers? Why can't sex workers speak for themselves? Does anyone seriously believe the Magdalene sisters should be trusted to speak for sex workers?


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    #28
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    Sin City wrote: »
    Do you have the full statistics to show the range of forced sex workers and free will sex workers?

    There is no reliable data about female indoor sex work (the most common type by far) in Ireland, because the Government has consistently handed funding for research over to Ruhama to carry out the research. Plus the Religious Sisters of Charity have also funded research. That's what we have as research.


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    #29
    sexworkie
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭sexworkie


    There has been research in the UK though:
    http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/news/latest-news/2011/november/study-finds-migrant-sex-workers-not-forced-to-sell-sex.cfm


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    #30
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Sin City wrote: »

    Do you have the full statistics to show the range of forced sex workers and free will sex workers?


    No I don't, because reported statistics will tell you absolutely nothing.


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    #31
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Czarcasm wrote: »
    No I don't, because reported statistics will tell you absolutely nothing.

    So you are just guessing then


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