Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

Procasinator

CK73 wrote: »

Many of my friends have moved on from swinging, we have sex for pleasure and the fact we get paid for it is a bonus.

Not really regarding legislation, so a bit off topic, but...

I would think this doesn't really hold that true in most cases. What I mean, is that I doubt many prostitutes enjoy the sex they have with clients all the frequently. Sure, occasionally they may, but generally speaking the sex is bound to be repetitive and designed to please the client, even sometimes at the cost the prostitutes pleasure.

I'm sure there could be enjoyable elements of the job for some. But, and I could be wrong, but could you say genuinely that the job has enhanced your love of sex? That you started selling sex cause you enjoyed it so much? Do you think you would you consider having a sexual/girlfriend-like relationship in your personal life with even half your clients, if you were not a prostitute?

A recent IAmA on Reddit with a legal (and willing) Australian prostitute said that a large part of her job is being an actress. This seems to be true doubly so to me if you are providing the GFE. That while she may enjoy the process with some clients, generally speaking it's just a job. And that she wouldn't consider having sex with a large number of her clients if she were not doing it for money.

It seems to me going into prostitution cause you enjoy sex is a poor line of reasoning. Because you like the flexibility, the independence and the money seems to be a more likely reasons if you are doing well and are a balanced individual. Because you lack other opportunities (or dismiss them) seems to be the reason for many others.

I think that many men would like to believe that the women become prostitutes because they enjoy sex, and that they the ones they use the services of enjoy sex with them. But it seems to me this is a delusion in most cases. It seems to me it'd be hard to as a prostitute to achieve that, unless you are running a very select client list and quite sporadic appointments.

CK73

Procasinator wrote: »

Not really regarding legislation, so a bit off topic, but...

I would think this doesn't really hold that true in most cases. What I mean, is that I doubt many prostitutes enjoy the sex they have with clients all the frequently. Sure, occasionally they may, but generally speaking the sex is bound to be repetitive and designed to please the client, even sometimes at the cost the prostitutes pleasure.

I'm sure there could be enjoyable elements of the job for some. But, and I could be wrong, but could you say genuinely that the job has enhanced your love of sex? That you started selling sex cause you enjoyed it so much? Do you think you would you consider having a sexual/girlfriend-like relationship in your personal life with even half your clients, if you were not a prostitute?

A recent IAmA on Reddit with a legal (and willing) Australian prostitute said that a large part of her job is being an actress. This seems to be true doubly so to me if you are providing the GFE. That while she may enjoy the process with some clients, generally speaking it's just a job. And that she wouldn't consider having sex with a large number of her clients if she were not doing it for money.

It seems to me going into prostitution cause you enjoy sex is a poor line of reasoning. Because you like the flexibility, the independence and the money seems to be a more likely reasons if you are doing well and are a balanced individual. Because you lack other opportunities (or dismiss them) seems to be the reason for many others.

I think that many men would like to believe that the women become prostitutes because they enjoy sex, and that they the ones they use the services of enjoy sex with them. But it seems to me this is a delusion in most cases. It seems to me it'd be hard to as a prostitute to achieve that, unless you are running a very select client list and quite sporadic appointments.

Hi,

Thank you for your reasoned response and for not telling me what I think and feel, but more questioning it.

I think a lot of my Swinging friends who have entered the field of Sex work have done it due to the recession. They have found money tight and it was the natural way to get the extra funds that they needed.

Personally I was in a position where I was just making ends meet when my ex stopped my CSA payments. This significantly changed my financial position and I had to decide what my best move was, as I had a mortgage and if I could not pay it then I would lose my home. This was not an option for me, as my child was about to take their GCSE's and studying. The last thing they needed was upheaval and then there is the added emotion of knowing that our life change would be because of their Dad.

I am well qualified and could have used that to find alternative work, but at the time I wanted to continue with my regular job and needed to find something flexible that would allow me to do that and provide the extra funds. I looked at my skill base and as a Swinger, it made sense to use my natural enjoyment of sex and having sex with strangers to my advantage.

I joined a website to advertise and to begin with, just accepted the odd job. I was concerned and did ask for photo's to begin with, as I had believed all the hype of dirty old men and thought I would continue swinging, because it would be wham bham and no pleasure for me. This has not been the case. I have met a variety of men, many of which I would have chosen to partner for swinging and many that perhaps I wouldn't have, that have given me a much more satisfying experience.

I have been surprised myself at how much I have enjoyed the work and consequently I stopped my other job (which I did love) and have decided to not only make ends meet, but use my extra earnings to pay off old debts that I acquired getting an education in order to be self sufficient.

I think the only thing that was never an option for me, was the idea of going on the dole. I didn't want my child to grow up thinking that it was ok to rely on the state and sit back and do nothing. I was successful as now they are working with good prospects, so I am no longer working to protect them and keep them in a good home, but purely for myself. I still have some debts to clear and I am hopefully starting a new degree course in September and will change career when I have completed it.

Why do I want to change career? Eventually I would like to have a relationship and no it would not bother me if it was with an ex client or not. Many clients are monogamous and only see Escorts between relationships. I personally travel a lot at the moment to do my work and would like to settle down to start a relationship, so like many career minded people, I will wait until I am in a better position to make a relationship work and am able to approach it from an equal stance financially.

Czarcasm

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I'm sure you're a nice fella, but I find it extremely sad that in 2013 there are still people who have such an archaic view of sex.

Sound for the sentiment and I appreciate that you won't be back to the thread, I'm struggling to commit time to it myself which is why aares and CK's posts I know I can leave til later while I'm still considering how I can express myself better so anyone reading the thread can use it as an information resource rather than a bitchy back and forth that nobody wants to read.


With that said, to address your specific point above-

I find it a sad reflection on our society that we still haven't moved on from the archaic practice of trading sexual favors for shiny shiny.

I don't have any problems with sex (well, the whole adult baby thing doesn't do it for me personally ), but hey whatever floats your boat, but in 2013, you do realise we have the technology and the means that not only can you meet like minded people online, but you can even meet them in person with Ryanair flights for a tenner, you know exactly what to expect, knock yourselves out when you meet up, a whole weekend even, and the best bit?

YOU JUST SAVED YOURSELF €4900!!

"But this, but that, but the other"...

Stop complaining, I offered you an alternative and saved you a shedload of money! A weekend of great sex, nobody breaking the law, nobody got hurt (unless they wanted to! ),and a saving of nearly €5k, and your STILL not happy? Really?


My point being that it's not the idea of sex that's archaic, it's the idea of paying for it and trading it as a commodity when it's a more freely available resource than the water which covers 70% of the planet!

Someone earlier in the thread made the point that the internet and technology is a threat to those who disagree with legislating for sex workers. It's just as much a threat to sex workers when you REALLY CAN find a cracking girl or guy ten minutes from your current location who will indulge in your amputation fantasies (you can get straps that will bend your arms and legs at the joints - one "amputee" later, play ball... in a manner of speaking) and allow themselves to be fcuked off a wall and whipped, kicked and punched within an inch of their lives, if that's what gets you off!

Aaaand I've probably said too much already... :pac:


But did I mention the best bit? They'll do it for FREE!! A sex worker quite literally wouldn't give you the steam off their pìss for free, never mind a cuddle and a chat! That shìt's bad for business- "no pro boner work here!", "no fantastic plastic? take your issues somewhere else!".

Women are not pathetic; they are capable of choosing how they live their life, whether that means they have sex for money or for free or not at all or however they want.

Where did I ever say women weren't fantastic and incredibly capable? I love women, I wouldn't be here myself had I not fallen from between the thighs of one 36 years ago, 35 of which we've never seen eye to eye on anything, but that's just a personality clash. Same with men- love em, but again, my old man? Personality clash.

Sex is not dirty or shameful; it's as natural as eating and sleeping.

Nobody said it was? What's shameful is charging people for the pleasure- give it freely, or don't give it at all. But don't try and package it up as you doing humanity a favor by charging for an infinite resource.

I don't know why some sections of society continue to twist sex in an attempt to turn it into something it's not.

Because, as PT Barnum would say - there's one born every minute, and if you can package an infinitely available resource and make it look shiny shiny, well, I'm still kicking myself I didn't patent bottled water and lock it down. That shìt sells itself.

Sex workers on the other hand, have to market themselves, and rather aggressively too I might add, apparently Ireland in a recession and sex workers all over Europe have heard your anguished cries of desperate dry spells. Not to worry, they'll be with you shortly, they just have to take care of those meanies in Dáil Eireann so they can help up all to feel all happy again with their particular brand of shiny shiny cuddles.


Will you be paying in cash or plastic?

Better lube up sweetheart, you're about to get fcuked over a barrel again!

I don't want to get into a debate with you, I probably won't post anything else in this thread.

Do come again, I've got plenty more where that came from.

aare

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats just the line you use to fool yourself into thinking that you enjoy what you do.

I am sorry, but I take exception to you presuming to know more about the way a grown woman and her friends feel than they do.

aare

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Im sure that they do clock off or should i have dropped the L Many advertise that they are available 24hrs, many have set hours depending on their location.

The Golden Pages are full of plumbers and breakdown services that are available "24 hrs" that doesn't mean they work 24 hours a day and 7 days a week and have no lives!

CK73

czarcasm what you are forgetting is the selection process. Yes there are many women ready and willing to do many weird and wonderful things, but when they are doing it for 'free', they are only doing it with a very select few who they choose to be with. Unfortunately there are far more men than women indulging and generally speaking it is the same few men who get all the attention, leaving the rest to play with themselves (literally).

Why shouldn't the ones that are tired of continually being rejected or the games you have to play in order to get selected opt out and go for an option that does not involve the selection process?

aare

Minoxidil wrote: »

How can you be so certain a prostitute couldn't possibly in her job?

Do you have psychic powers?

One of the immutable facts of life is that *ALL* any of us know about how any other person feels or thinks is what they choose to tell us, yet this whole issue has arisen from self appointed, overfunded orgs insisting that they know more about sex workers than sex workers do and should be allowed to talk over and dictate to and for them...

...it is a lot more frightening when the Justice Committee follow that line of reasoning too.

aare

Procasinator wrote: »

It seems to me going into prostitution cause you enjoy sex is a poor line of reasoning. Because you like the flexibility, the independence and the money seems to be a more likely reasons if you are doing well and are a balanced individual. Because you lack other opportunities (or dismiss them) seems to be the reason for many others.

I think we have to start taking this to the next level and realising that, just like anyone else, sex workers are all individuals and, like any other individuals, plenty of them have reasons for the choices they make in life that may seem outright bizarre to other people, because that is what being any individual is about.

I also think we have to start taking respect for sex workers to the next level and recognising that, as long as they choose sex work without coercion, the reasons why they choose it are probably nobody else's business, unless of course, they feel like explaining them.

Sin City

Just making a few points here, Czar

First point is at least with an escort (A professional one btw) you are more like;y to be std free after the encounter unlike a one night stand where youd never know, The reason I say this is because its in the escorts best interest to be std free and to get checked regulary as it would destroy her business if she was infecting clients.

Second point what about those who are too shy or are unable to have a relationship blossom into the physical stage, are they not allowed have sex ever?

The disabled,are they not allowed have sex, if they cannot find it in the real world?

Just a few thoughts,

Not evryone is going to agree with the use of escorts, but a lot dont see the harm in it as long as both parties are consenting adults and understand the whats going on .

Daveysil15

Sin City wrote: »

First point is at least with an escort (A professional one btw) you are more like;y to be std free after the encounter unlike a one night stand where youd never know, The reason I say this is because its in the escorts best interest to be std free and to get checked regulary as it would destroy her business if she was infecting clients.

Not to mention that people may be less likely to use protection when they're drunk and meet someone on a night out. You could just as easily get an infection off someone you met in a club.

CK73

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Not to mention that people may be less likely to use protection when they're drunk and meet someone on a night out. You could just as easily get an infection off someone you met in a club.

More likely unless you are selecting Sex Workers who advertises to offer bareback and then you are being foolish and playing Russian roulette with your life and there's.

You would be surprised at how many clients do ask for bareback. That to me is shocking in a day and age where we all know the risks. Some even think it is ok to do anal bareback because you can't get pregnant that way (men not the ladies) and that is even worse with regards to STI's, as there is a greater possibility of tearing.

If they wanted to outlaw bareback sex within the paid sex industry, I would be all for that and I think porn should advocate using protection, as this is often the first influence for you people.

GalwayGuy2

If they wanted to outlaw bareback sex within the paid sex industry, I would be all for that and I think porn should advocate using protection, as this is often the first influence for you people.

Young? :P

aare

CK73 wrote: »

If they wanted to outlaw bareback sex within the paid sex industry, I would be all for that and I think porn should advocate using protection, as this is often the first influence for you people.

...and, of course this is the kind of useful, positive, regulation that is impossible in any legislative framework intended to "eradicate" sex work.

CK73

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Young? :P

lol sadly not I'm in my 40's lol. I have been a Youth Worker in my time though, so I know what they get up to on their laptops lol. Having said that, back then they were better at putting a condom on than I was. One of our many jobs was to show them how to use condoms properly. Thankfully I was not leading that lesson, just observing.

GalwayGuy2

lol sadly not I'm in my 40's lol. I have been a Youth Worker in my time though, so I know what they get up to on their laptops lol. Having said that, back then they were better at putting a condom on than I was. One of our many jobs was to show them how to use condoms properly. Thankfully I was not leading that lesson, just observing.

Oh that was a comment on the typo and was curious whether you meant you or young people.

Hmm, although I do think they tried to implement condoms in the porn industry (California?) and there were complaints about the fact that they were STI free, there were tests and supposedly it would chafe and become painful in the hours it takes to film a scene. I think there was something about that a few years ago.

Daveysil15

CK73... how would you feel about having to register and work in a legal brothel? I'd imagine some escorts would be against that idea as they would lose their anonymity. Like in Amsterdam for example where the girls can be seen by everybody. They can’t hide what they’re doing. The current law here would seem to favor the women who choose the profession as they can be very secretive about it, albeit not quite as safe if they‘re working alone.

CK73

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Oh that was a comment on the typo and was curious whether you meant you or young people.

Hmm, although I do think they tried to implement condoms in the porn industry (California?) and there were complaints about the fact that they were STI free, there were tests and supposedly it would chafe and become painful in the hours it takes to film a scene. I think there was something about that a few years ago.

I have no idea, although I would have thought lots of lubrication would have stopped that. I also hate the way porn shows men going from back to front, as that is so bad for you and can cause thrush, let alone anything else. Oh and making a lady do things with him after anal, is just horrid.

That I don't like, when things that can have issues with your health are made out to be 'normal', so that young people assume it is ok to do it. There was a programme on telly in the UK not so long ago, where they asked young people if they had tried anal and most of them have and this is directly linked to the porn industry.

I dread to think what state these girls will be in when they get to my age, if they do continue with it and isn't sex scary enough the first time, without being told that you should be happy to do anal? Talk about added pressure.

I don't believe that anyone should start their sexual life until they are ready for it and then it should be within boundaries that are acceptable to them. We live in a double standard society where on the one hand, sex is free and easy to see at the click of a button, but if you want consensual paid sex you will become a criminal.

It seems like mixed messages and rather harsh to me.

Sin City

Daveysil15 wrote: »

CK73... how would you feel about having to register and work in a legal brothel? I'd imagine some escorts would be against that idea as they would lose their anonymity. Like in Amsterdam for example where the girls can be seen by everybody. They can’t hide what they’re doing. The current law here would seem to favor the women who choose the profession as they can be very secretive about it, albeit not quite as safe if they‘re working alone.

My own opinion is that working for a brothel would remove the escorts independence , and it would also mean that they would jot be getting 100% of their earnings, which would be wrong.

Another question youd have to ask is would the brothel say who you would see or would the escort again have the power to say no.

And of course as you said yourself anonymity would disappear, this is a small island and youd be outed pretty quickly

aare

Daveysil15 wrote: »

CK73... how would you feel about having to register and work in a legal brothel? I'd imagine some escorts would be against that idea as they would lose their anonymity. Like in Amsterdam for example where the girls can be seen by everybody. They can’t hide what they’re doing. The current law here would seem to favor the women who choose the profession as they can be very secretive about it, albeit not quite as safe if they‘re working alone.

Can I answer this too?

There is a serious problem with that as compulsory in that, for an awful lot of sex workers the "tipping point" in their choice is a temperamental need to work as a freelance.

It's not just about the fear of losing anonymity...it is just as much, and maybe more, about the fear of losing autonomy.

CK73

Daveysil15 wrote: »

CK73... how would you feel about having to register and work in a legal brothel? I'd imagine some escorts would be against that idea as they would lose their anonymity. Like in Amsterdam for example where the girls can be seen by everybody. They can’t hide what they’re doing. The current law here would seem to favor the women who choose the profession as they can be very secretive about it, albeit not quite as safe if they‘re working alone.

I personally could not work in a brothel. I would find the whole selection process dehumanizing and I think my ego would get bruised every time I was not selected. Plus the person is not picking me because they like my personality or my attitude, but purely based on looks. By having my profiles and websites, I am able to convey a little of myself and I have the option for dinner dates. I also work in surroundings that are about 'me' and who I am.

I am not totally against registration, but feel we should be able to register under our working name and not real name. Then if or when I move on to pastures new I can leave the past behind me and continue with my new job unaffected by the past.

I also like to work the hours that are convenient to me and sometimes I have to stop work due to family commitments or illness or just not being in the right mood and at the moment that is totally up to me. If I worked in a brothel, I would have to fulfill their expectations and work in their environment and to their standards and not mine.

I like being Independent and I like being self employed.

Daveysil15

CK73 wrote: »

I personally could not work in a brothel. I would find the whole selection process dehumanizing and I think my ego would get bruised every time I was not selected. Plus the person is not picking me because they like my personality or my attitude, but purely based on looks. By having my profiles and websites, I am able to convey a little of myself and I have the option for dinner dates. I also work in surroundings that are about 'me' and who I am.

I am not totally against registration, but feel we should be able to register under our working name and not real name. Then if or when I move on to pastures new I can leave the past behind me and continue with my new job unaffected by the past.

I also like to work the hours that are convenient to me and sometimes I have to stop work due to family commitments or illness or just not being in the right mood and at the moment that is totally up to me. If I worked in a brothel, I would have to fulfill their expectations and work in their environment and to their standards and not mine.

I like being Independent and I like being self employed.

Which is why I don’t understand why anybody working in prostitution would be for regulating it. Making brothel keeping legal wouldn’t exactly remove the stigma. People selling and soliciting sex wouldn’t be able to exercise the same discretion, unless of course they could still run the brothels in private apartments away from prying eyes.

I assume the current law is better for you or is there any change in legislation you’d like to see implemented? What do you think is the best way to combat trafficking?

CK73

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Which is why I don’t understand why anybody working in prostitution would be for regulating it. Making brothel keeping legal wouldn’t exactly remove the stigma. People selling and soliciting sex wouldn’t be able to exercise the same discretion, unless of course they could still run the brothels in private apartments away from prying eyes.

I assume the current law is better for you or is there any change in legislation you’d like to see implemented? What do you think is the best way to combat trafficking?

That is a very hard question to answer. I think maybe we should be able to register with our own local police station, under what ever name we choose and the premises we choose to work from. It would be private information and not for the general public.

I personally don't like brothels, but I know of women that prefer them, as then when they leave, they leave it all behind and they don't have to source their own clients. There is room for both.

Anyone found to be working without a permit, should be up for questioning, not necessarily by the police, but some kind of social worker, who could assess if they are working of their own choice or being coerced/trafficked. If they feel they are in need of help, then a chain of events put in place to help them.

If they are found to be working without a permit and not trafficked, then they should be given a warning and if they are found to still be working after a further visit, then some kind of fine or scheme that removes them from the situation. If they don't have the money to pay, then again the scheme, which removes them from the situation, which gives them a further chance to make sure they are not trafficked.

If they disappear after the warning, then this might be an indication that they are trafficked, so maybe there should be 2 types of permit. A resident permit and a touring permit. If a Sex Worker wants to tour, then she needs to apply for the touring permit and reapply every 6 months.

So if a lady moves on without word, she can be putting on a register as suspicious and possibly trafficked? We would have to work together and there is already a crime stoppers number, so that clients that are suspicious can contact the police. This should stay in place, but would work well with the permits, as then they would know if the lady was on their records or not.

It's just a thought and an impulse one at that. I don't mind having to jump through a few hoops if it helps someone else get rescued, but I would rather that, than have the rug pulled from under my feet.

Hilly Bill

Minoxidil wrote: »

How can you be so certain a prostitute couldn't possibly in her job?

Do you have psychic powers?

I do actually. Tonights winning lotto numbers are ..............

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

Probably because you are treating me like a piece of **** with no respect. Isn't that how misogynistic people behave towards women?

Tell me something, if I don't enjoy my work at all, how come my body orgasms and gushes? Admittedly I don't gush with every client, but I mostly do orgasm. Now please bare in mind that I didn't have one orgasm with my ex and was 31 the first time, so it's not something that happened freely with me until after I experienced it and opened my mind to fully enjoying my sexual experiences.

I've also had several years of celibacy throughout my life and realised after the last 3 year stint that it was not for me and not something that enhanced my life, but added to the stresses I had at the time. Denial, is not always the best solution.


I might be able to fool myself, but I can't fool my body. Sex is a pleasurable experience and most people are capable of giving someone pleasure, as well as receiving it.

Oh dear!!.


As for the rest of your post, i will just take your word for it.

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Oh dear!!.


As for the rest of your post, i will just take your word for it.

Even that reply was condescending. I guess you are a little low on the brain cells and not able to have a constructive argument? It's easy to put someone else down and dismiss what they say, it's not so easy to counter argue and actually contribute.

Hilly Bill

aare wrote: »

I am sorry, but I take exception to you presuming to know more about the way a grown woman and her friends feel than they do.

Why would you take exception to something that wasnt posted to you?

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

Even that reply was condescending. I guess you are a little low on the brain cells and not able to have a constructive argument? It's easy to put someone else down and dismiss what they say, it's not so easy to counter argue and actually contribute.

When all else fails, use the insults and accusations. You are not doing your argument any good now are you.

Hilly Bill

aare wrote: »

The Golden Pages are full of plumbers and breakdown services that are available "24 hrs" that doesn't mean they work 24 hours a day and 7 days a week and have no lives!

I know.

Minoxidil

Hilly Bill wrote: »

When all else fails, use the insults and accusations. You are not doing your argument any good now are you.

I personally think she's shown incredible restraint considering some of your condescending comments and unwillingness to engage in a proper discussion.

It's your "argument" which has failed.

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

When all else fails, use the insults and accusations. You are not doing your argument any good now are you.

Maybe I'm trying to encourage you to converse with me, rather that dismiss me? I have nothing to gain from telling lies on here. I do not represent anyone else but myself and can only talk about the people I know and myself. I also have some stats and I have read up on the Swedish model etc, so I have some information. I have a teenager and have worked in a Youth centre, so I also have some knowledge on the influences that teenagers have, but I don't know everything.

I know that I am not on my own in wanting to have my voice heard at these committee meetings and that there are thousands of Sex Workers that want to continue working without fear or abuse or losing their homes if the law changes.

Many people don't love their work, but still do it for the money or until they get a job that suits them better. Yes I imagine there are many Sex Workers in that category and yes I'm sure most of them fake it or make out they are enjoying it more than they are, but... that doesn't mean they are hating it or that they mind doing it or that given the choice they would stop doing it.

I know that I am lucky that I go enjoy my work as much as I do, but it doesn't mean I'm telling a pack of lies or fooling myself.

What really annoys me is when people seem to assume there is some kind of tunnel vision. Ie, I give an example of my opinion or of someone else I know in the trade and all of a sudden, 'Oh you're mad if you think it's all like that!' well no, I don't, but it is still an honest account and shows that not all women hate, fake or wish they were else where.

I know of one mature lady who was earning in the £30,000 bracket in her regular job, but the pressure was making her ill and eventually she gave that up to take on Sex Work fully time. She had been doing it part-time before for light relief and to de-stress. She gave up a well paid job with a managerial position for prostitution.

You might find that mad, but the truth is we are all different and for her the money was a buzz, a bit of a kink and eventually it became her way out of a situation she didn't want to be in.

I can keep giving examples of where Sex Work has worked for women, because there are plenty who would prefer it to other jobs, or no job at all. It is only other people's perception that assume we all hate it and that is wrong!