Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

aare · 23-02-2013 8:46pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

When all else fails, use the insults and accusations. You are not doing your argument any good now are you.

I seriously think you are just trolling for reactions to see who you can upset.

Hilly Bill · 24-02-2013 12:59am

aare wrote: »

I seriously think you are just trolling for reactions to see who you can upset.

Ive expressed an opinion ,others have expressed insults. Using the troll card is the last throw of the dice.

Hilly Bill · 24-02-2013 1:12am

CK73 wrote: »

Maybe I'm trying to encourage you to converse with me, rather that dismiss me? I have nothing to gain from telling lies on here. I do not represent anyone else but myself and can only talk about the people I know and myself. I also have some stats and I have read up on the Swedish model etc, so I have some information. I have a teenager and have worked in a Youth centre, so I also have some knowledge on the influences that teenagers have, but I don't know everything.

I know that I am not on my own in wanting to have my voice heard at these committee meetings and that there are thousands of Sex Workers that want to continue working without fear or abuse or losing their homes if the law changes.

Many people don't love their work, but still do it for the money or until they get a job that suits them better. Yes I imagine there are many Sex Workers in that category and yes I'm sure most of them fake it or make out they are enjoying it more than they are, but... that doesn't mean they are hating it or that they mind doing it or that given the choice they would stop doing it.

I know that I am lucky that I go enjoy my work as much as I do, but it doesn't mean I'm telling a pack of lies or fooling myself.

What really annoys me is when people seem to assume there is some kind of tunnel vision. Ie, I give an example of my opinion or of someone else I know in the trade and all of a sudden, 'Oh you're mad if you think it's all like that!' well no, I don't, but it is still an honest account and shows that not all women hate, fake or wish they were else where.

I know of one mature lady who was earning in the £30,000 bracket in her regular job, but the pressure was making her ill and eventually she gave that up to take on Sex Work fully time. She had been doing it part-time before for light relief and to de-stress. She gave up a well paid job with a managerial position for prostitution.

You might find that mad, but the truth is we are all different and for her the money was a buzz, a bit of a kink and eventually it became her way out of a situation she didn't want to be in.

I can keep giving examples of where Sex Work has worked for women, because there are plenty who would prefer it to other jobs, or no job at all. It is only other people's perception that assume we all hate it and that is wrong!

Good post, well said.

Whats your view on the protection of the client from prosecution and safety from dodgy workers. When a client walks through a door, he doesnt know whats going to meet him on the other side or if the worker will just take the money and cry rape knowing the chances of the client reporting it as slim. I know it may be the extreme side of it but the potential for it to happen is there as well as a worker meeting a bad client who robs her and beats her or him in some cases. Should a few clients who dont mind speaking up meet with this committee at the same time?

feargale · 24-02-2013 1:34am

I fail to understand how the government can set up an enquiry into something, and then virtually exclude from that enquiry a group who are central to the activity into which they are enquiring. What is it that they are afraid they might hear? It is so typical of what has gone on in this country for decades - people being left without a voice. And see the misery that has been caused by that self imposed deafness in so many aspects of people's lives. In 1935 a ban on contraception was imposed by statute with no discussion in the Dail. When Senator Rowlette tried to initiate a discussion in the Seanad he was silenced. " The less we say about this the better." Gawd, have we learned nothing? If I were conducting an enquiry into the devil I would want to hear him if only to try to find out what he was up to. This post is not to be taken as adopting any position on prostitution.

aare · 24-02-2013 2:32am

feargale wrote: »

I fail to understand how the government can set up an enquiry into something, and then virtually exclude from that enquiry a group who are central to the activity into which they are enquiring. What is it that they are afraid they might hear? It is so typical of what has gone on in this country for decades - people being left without a voice. And see the misery that has been caused by that self imposed deafness in so many aspects of people's lives. In 1935 a ban on contraception was imposed by statute with no discussion in the Dail. When Senator Rowlette tried to initiate a discussion in the Seanad he was silenced. " The less we say about this the better." Gawd, have we learned nothing? If I were conducting an enquiry into the devil I would want to hear him if only to try to find out what he was up to. This post is not to be taken as adopting any position on prostitution.

It is standard practice, across the board, to consult NGOs in preference to the people who will be directly affected. Worse than that, there is no attempt made, let alone a system in place to monitor whether the NGOs in question have any kind of mandate from, or consultation with, those they claim to speak for, with the result that, in most cases, they have none, and the voices of those who will be directly affected are never, ever heard at all.

At the beginning of this consultation, nobody at the Department of Justice had a clue that Ruhama do not speak for all sex workers. They really believed that if sex workers had anything to say they could ask Ruhama to say it for them. The truth is that most sex workers find Ruhama abhorrent. The only few sex workers who will have anything to do with them at all are the kind who are happier playing the system and say anything Ruhama want them to as long as there is something in it for them.

Czarcasm · 24-02-2013 2:45am

Sorry lads I'm only having the chance to catch up on the last few pages of this thread now, but CK I just wanted to say you are an absolute legend, and I truly am grateful to you for sticking with this thread even though I know at times it must have been a pain in the face for you too!

I know I personally pushed you hard but it's because I wanted to get the information out there, both the good, the bad and well, flesh out the discussion to explore the multitude of aspects, attitudes and issues, not just for those involved in the industry, but for the general public at large.

The reason I have chosen aare (eventually I'll get your username right!

99% of the time I'm posting from mobile, all my posts in this thread were posted from mobile! But my eyesight is just... pfft, not good!

) not to publicly name the organisation I work for is because some "Inspector Clueless" poster will just make a quick call Monday morning to say there's a guy giving it socks on boards.ie in a thread about sex workers.

In my PM to Seanmachall on this issue I expressed this concern and said that as much as I wanted to get the information out there, there were things I couldn't share in a public forum. I have to consider that I am in a privileged position, strings were pulled and forms were fast tracked to get me in, and I cannot betray those confidences.

I want to just quickly address one point though aares if I may-

Anyone I've helped, I have never, and will never, encourage them to participate in CE schemes. To me they are a short term effort and only result in short term solutions. Many times I have personally funded proper education for those I have helped and given not just my money but more importantly my time in assisting them with assignments, projects and exam preparation, so I want to just if I may, direct your attention to this-

http://www.dit.ie/study/undergraduate/programmes/dt407/

It's a degree course in chef work. Remember that chap I talked about that is now working as a chef?

I could've sent him to do a 12 week course in Ballymaloe but again a short term course- short term results. Another friend who I talked to attended the Ballymalloe and got a job out of it couldn't recommend it highly enough, but I don't do things by halves when I commit to something. I strive for excellence in everything I do and I encourage the same of those I work with.

aares you've been suggesting from early on in the thread that I'm a control freak, and yes, I am, I like making things happen for people. My wife has previously told me that she could never work with me because I'm an "unconscionable bastard" apparently. I'm just very focussed and driven.

This does not make me a bad person, and my record speaks for itself. I get results.

I tell my wife I couldn't do what I do without her doing what she does, and she is an amazing housewife and mother, dual roles she excels in, fulfilling her potential, and god knows she puts up with an awful lot of my shìt, as do the rest of an amazing resource network of people I've built up over the years that I know I can call on when I need them to use their particular set of skills to get a job done.

A psychiatrist friend of mine had me do a personality test once, just for giggles, the web is peppered with them so I don't know how much weight one should place in them, but here's a pretty good description of my personality type-

http://psychology.about.com/od/trait-theories-personality/a/intj.htm

Minoxidil wrote: »

I personally think she's shown incredible restraint considering some of your condescending comments and unwillingness to engage in a proper discussion.

It's your "argument" which has failed.

Well said Mino.

I would've said "HB get your shìt together!", but that would have earned me an infraction. Not worth it tbh, plus I'm trying to cut down on my use of foul language!

aare · 24-02-2013 3:08am

Czarcasm wrote: »

aares you've been suggesting from early on in the thread that I'm a control freak, and yes, I am, I like making things happen for people. My wife has previously told me that she could never work with me because I'm an "unconscionable bastard" apparently. I'm just very focussed and driven.

...on imposing things on people, in the case of sex workers, aspiring to impose without their consent...because *you* think that will be good for them.

Just remember something in life...no matter how **** hot you are in bed...if the lady says *no* - it is still rape...

Edited to add:
...and I do not mean the above unkindly, just honestly...none of us knows enough about anyone else's life to mess with it harmlessly.

Czarcasm · 24-02-2013 3:25am

aare wrote: »

...on imposing things on people, in the case of sex workers, aspiring to impose without their consent...because *you* think that will be good for them.

Seriously? Perhaps you missed the parts in my earlier posts when I said that I have many friends who have been very successful in the sex industry. I also said that they made the informed decision to work in the industry, and I have already expressed my admiration for CK. I may not personally agree with their chosen career paths, but certainly I would never impose my will or my personal opinions on anyone.

At this stage I think I've more than fairly addressed your point, so lets move the discussion on from here and not get bogged down in semantics.

Just remember something in life...no matter how **** hot you are in bed...if the lady says *no* - it is still rape...

I'll presume this is actually general advice and not directly addressed to me.

EDIT: Best just move the thread on now aares. That comment was completely unnecessary.

aare · 24-02-2013 3:56am

Czarcasm wrote: »

EDIT: Best just move the thread on now aares. That comment was completely unnecessary.

Au contraire...it may have been the most meaningful comment of the whole thread...not just toward you, but toward Ruhama, and ALL the people who think sex workers must be ignored and sex work must be subject to one form or another of "zero tolerance" because they "know best"...and sex workers know nothing (about their own lives no less).

It doesn't matter how **** hot you are in bed...if the lady says *no* - it is still rape...

However you dress it up, all you are doing is trying to superimpose *YOUR* will, *YOUR* thinking on sex workers lives...because you need to think you are somehow superior.

But from the point of view of sex workers, all you are trying to do is feck their lives against their will...because no matter how they see their work, or what their motivation is, NOBODY can afford to have their livelihood attacked in this economic climate.

99% of all known sex workers do not want sex work *eradicated*, because they are intelligent people who have considered their options and discovered that sex work is the best, and sometimes even the only viable option they have...

But you want to feck with that because you think you know better.

Trouble is, you really, seriously, do not.

Hilly Bill · 24-02-2013 12:05pm

All the men and women in the business are individuals and what you think is best for you might not be the best for someone else. In an unregulated industry, what gives the few the right to try and change something that could have a greater effect on others who might not agree with them. The same point could be said of the this committee though.

24-02-2013 12:57pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Sorry lads I'm only having the chance to catch up on the last few pages of this thread now, but CK I just wanted to say you are an absolute legend, and I truly am grateful to you for sticking with this thread even though I know at times it must have been a pain in the face for you too!

I know I personally pushed you hard but it's because I wanted to get the information out there, both the good, the bad and well, flesh out the discussion to explore the multitude of aspects, attitudes and issues, not just for those involved in the industry, but for the general public at large.

Fair play to you Czarcasm, I admire you for that. You too stuck to your guns.:) I have really enjoyed this tread, I this yourself and Ck have been brilliant in putting your points across. Points that needed to be made on both sides of the argument.

Czarcasm, the people who have you in their corner fighting for them are very lucky indeed. You are very passionate in your work. I really commend you for that.

aare · 24-02-2013 2:18pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

All the men and women in the business are individuals and what you think is best for you might not be the best for someone else. In an unregulated industry, what gives the few the right to try and change something that could have a greater effect on others who might not agree with them. The same point could be said of the this committee though.

...and that is exactly why nobody, whether individual or org, should be seeking legislation that gives anyone the leverage to do the thinking and deciding for any other adult (We already have separate laws to protect minors which can be tightened if they seem inadequate).

We need legislation that protects the rights and privacy of every adult to make their own choices about sex work and sex workers within a framework that also protects the rights of the wider society.

This can easily be achieved by regulation through licencing of indoor workers and zoning of street workers.

Protecting people from coercion and trafficking means protecting them from coercion and trafficking into or out of the sex industry. The primary aim of the "Turn Off the Red Light" campaign seems to be to coerce and traffick people out of the sex industry by cutting off their income without regard for their feelings, wishes or best interests...nor even their equal humanity.

("Turn Off the Red Light" Ruhama and affiliates openly refuse to even listen to any of the majority of sex workers who do not agree with them. Dissent by sex workers on their facebook page is deleted and blocked immediately, however polite they may manage to be.)

Hilly Bill · 24-02-2013 2:46pm

aare wrote: »

...and that is exactly why nobody, whether individual or org, should be seeking legislation that gives anyone the leverage to do the thinking and deciding for any other adult (We already have separate laws to protect minors which can be tightened if they seem inadequate).

We need legislation that protects the rights and privacy of every adult to make their own choices about sex work and sex workers within a framework that also protects the rights of the wider society.

This can easily be achieved by regulation through licencing of indoor workers and zoning of street workers.

Protecting people from coercion and trafficking means protecting them from coercion and trafficking into or out of the sex industry. The primary aim of the "Turn Off the Red Light" campaign seems to be to coerce and traffick people out of the sex industry by cutting off their income without regard for their feelings, wishes or best interests...nor even their equal humanity.

("Turn Off the Red Light" Ruhama and affiliates openly refuse to even listen to any of the majority of sex workers who do not agree with them. Dissent by sex workers on their facebook page is deleted and blocked immediately, however polite they may manage to be.)

Doesnt that go against your first paragraph?

Im not disagreeing with you but is the general consensus amongst the workers in favour of licencing? Would it then mean their earnings would be taxed? Or do you just want to work tax free ?
How will it improve the safety of the workers? or the clients?

aare · 24-02-2013 3:30pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Doesnt that go against your first paragraph?

Im not disagreeing with you but is the general consensus amongst the workers in favour of licencing? Would it then mean their earnings would be taxed? Or do you just want to work tax free ?
How will it improve the safety of the workers? or the clients?

No, it ("This can easily be achieved by regulation through licencing of indoor workers and zoning of street workers.") doesn't go against "...and that is exactly why nobody, whether individual or org, should be seeking legislation that gives anyone the leverage to do the thinking and deciding for any other adult." at all, because it is about "legislation that protects the rights and privacy of every adult to make their own choices about sex work and sex workers within a framework that also protects the rights of the wider society."

A street worker needs her right to choose and work as safely (and lucratively, because that is what we work for) as possible protecting - but NOT at the expense the right of other adults to live and raise their children in a purely residential environment, far away from "that sort of thing" (always wanted to say that, but it is also very true). Zoning away from residential areas protects both rights at only minimal cost to either.

An indoor worker needs her right to work, but society needs protecting from any risk of coercion within the sex industry. Licencing of indoors sex workers and premises can go a long way towards tracking and achieving that, and should be no more trouble to individual sex workers than taxing their cars.

(As a side benefit it should also be an effective tool in the fight to eradicate the use of b*llsh*t statistics by abolitionist NGOs)

As for the right to choose whether to pay tax or not...Good Luck with That!

(Apart from anything else if you exempt sex workers from tax the sudden upsurge in sex workers with white vans, or even tractors and wellies would be TERRIFYING.

)

SoupMonster · 24-02-2013 9:28pm

I have missed out on some interesting posts over the last two days. There are numerous posts I would like to respond to but this one caught my eye first.

riclad wrote: »

If I want to know whats going on in the computer industry, I would not be talking to a priest or a nun, or a chemist, ie speak to people who work daily in that industry and are experts at it.

If you REALLY wanted to know about the computer industry, you would NOT talk to a computer user or a computer seller. You would not drive to PCWorld and talk to the sales person. You should talk to some computer industry consultants, who study the industry. The more reputable is GARTNER. This is the consultancy that most large companies use.

In the case of this Justice Committee:-
They have gotten input from academics who have studied the industry, some are pro-sexwork, others are anti-sexwork.

They have gotten input from outreach organisations, all jurisdictions encourage such outreach programs. Even everyone's beloved Amsterdam funds outreach projects to provide exit services for 'sex-workers'. It is a fact of life that this is one of very few 'professions' where even voluntary workers need help to exit, where help must be made available to deal with post traumatic stress.

The fact that there are nuns involved is irrelevant. Who takes any notice of nuns anyway. Outreach programs are required, how else can someone who is so stigmatised by society seek help. You should be thankful that those women showed the initiative to set up an organisation to provide such assistance.

Maybe you imagine hordes of nuns in their habits stalking street-walkers or harassing passers-by warning them of the danger of original sin.

Maybe you imagine an elite nun SWAT team swooping on an illegal brothel.

Maybe you imagine vigilante groups creating honey-traps to catch men seeking sex. This one is real. In Iceland such a vigilante group exists. And they have supplied names, addresses, transcripts of on-line conversations to the police, including one man arranging to sh*g a 15 year old girl.

So you might actually be better served going to a club, have a few drinks, find a bird, charm her, take her home and sh*g her. Whats the big deal, its easy. I could do that 20 years ago, and we were all afraid of AIDs back then.
Society is more promiscuous now apparently, so it should be easier. If you don't know how, this guy will teach you. www.rooshv.com

aare · 24-02-2013 9:40pm

The vast majority (over 95%) of sex workers are too horrified by Ruhama and "Turn off the Red Light (with cause) to have anything to do with them...

So that Ruhama and "Turn Off the Red Light" do not actually speak for ANYONE except themselves...

SoupMonster · 24-02-2013 11:43pm

I found the origin of the phrase 'Rescue Industry'. Dr. Laura Agustin
The woman is a complete tool and a troll of the worst kind. She will be talking in Dublin in April, see her site.

Her central thesis is never made clear but she seems to believe
a. Sex is work like any other, and should not be curtailed by concepts of family, fidelity, etc.
b. Europe should accept illegal sex-workers, since they are trying to better themselves by earning.
c. Horror stories of enslavement has caused a moral panic.
d. This has resulted in the definition of 'trafficking' to encompass coerced and voluntary migration.
e. A rescue industry has emerged where do-gooders glorify themselves and only do so for their own self-engrandisement.

On these points
a. This is rooted in everyone individual belief system. However like religion, many people don't reflect and question their beliefs. Hence lots of people pop into the debate and say 'sex is work, here body is her own to do with as she sees fit, etc'. I would only accept that from someone who understands what prostitution entails in its many guises (from high class Belle de_Jure call-girl down to the poor girl who has been gang-raped into submission, put to work servicing 10 to 15 customers a day, tries to escape and is murdered for her trouble.)

Additionally, family is very important especially to mothers. Women want a committed partner who will help her to raise her children, this is an outcome of evolution and human children not being able to survive independently until they are 10/11 years old. Commitment is demonstrated by fidelity, women demand it. Infidelity causes the women to question the partners commitment towards support and places her children at risk. The male is also interested in their his children survive, but no man is happy to be cuckolded, so he too demands fidelity. (Most men would rather be anally raped, than find out his child is not his own).

b. I don't think any country must accept illegal migrants, sex-workers or not. Is sex work to be cast as charity? I will help you and your family but only if you suck my dick! In a world where a few megarich individuals hold most of the wealth, this is the best we are left with?

c The horror stories are just a moral panic. Maybe so. The horror stories happen in far way places, or to ethnic minorities we don't even care about.
Read this and try to recall the last time you paid a Chinese girl for sex.
Was it her?
Could she speak english?
Did you pay her, or someone else?
Are you 100% sure that she was not being coerced?
Were you technically raping her?
How may times does a girl need to be raped, before she is so used to it that it is no longer really rape?
Im' tearful even writing this...

d. I'll give her that one. Sex trafficking in the US now includes all assisted transport of a person for the purposes of prostitution. But she could at least acknowledge that it is in response to a real problem.

e. She has a real bee in her bonnet about this. Her posts on this subject drip with vitriol, you can almost feel the irrational hatred oozing from the monitor. Her idea is that the "rescue industry" is reminiscent of 19th century ladies saving working girls and finding them posts as domestic servants. That this was fashionable, that the upper classes knew best. That society ladies gained status by bragging about how many low-lifes they had saved. That the working girls were probably better off as they were. In 1860... possibly she is right.

She maintains that today the situation is the same but the society ladies are replaced by celebrities, and that targeting "trafficking" is a great way for 'charitable' organisations and NGOs to get government money.

There is one group in Oxford, UK trying to set up a charitable organisation using crowd sourcing. She attacks them viscously without having any information on their organisation, who they are or what they hope to achieve. It is all based on one photograph. This woman is a true idiot or the most twisted and demented kind.

She has a learned academic article published where she maintains that there are three occupations open to female migrants into Western Europe, domestic servant, carer or sex-worker. She then states categorically that since provision of sexual services is also an inherent part of the domestic services and carer jobs she will group these three occupations together, she uses Philippina maids as her illustrative example. Utter bull****. I personally know for a fact that providing sex services forms no part of any domestic help employment contracts in either Hong Kong, Singapore or Malaysia, and sexual assault in these situations is treated as a crime. Doubtless some naive girls may be pressurised by employers, but it is still a crime, and if she went to the courts she would get the same treatment as any other girl (you know, the usual victim blaming, intrusion into her previous life, her uniform was simply toooo sexy, etc).

But no, Laura just takes sexual abuse as a given, and therefore classifies domestic service as sex work. I tried to ask her if she thgought that 'provision of sexual services' should be written into maid's employment contracts and standardised in some way, but I seem to be banned. There are almost no comments in reply to her posts, most are cheering from 'Dubai Escorts', 'London Escorts', a few "dont take my foock-toys away" trolls, but certainly no criticism and no debate.

Finally, she is not a bad looking woman. But 'communication for the purposes of prostitution' is currently illegal in this country. Is there any legal way that I could attend her meeting and ask her to engage in reverse oral stimulation with me for a duration of 15 minutes for renumeration of Euro40? I am quite prepared to do this (the stimulaton) in public, on the podium, as the climax of the meeting, because I quite like her hair, and she has a nice smile, and I saw her picture on a website, and I have never done that before, and it would be an adventure, and it has that hint of danger, and I never has a Spanish woman before, and I hope I dont get caught, and my wife would kill me, and I want to come in something strange (basically the reason anyone buys sex). Seriously, if there is a legal way, I will go out to UCD and ask her in public, and if she calls my bluff I will strip her in public and eat me some troll pussy.

aare · 24-02-2013 11:56pm

Excuse me, I know Laura quite well and a person less like a troll would be very hard to find!

I can't remember the last time I disagreed with something she said, a very nice, down to earth lady who sees and tells it the way it is.

In contrast I just got this link, explaining the type of person Ruhama and Turn Off the Red Light use to campaign against sex workers and it is pretty shocking stuff:
http://sexwork.ie/2013/02/24/false-witness/

The Th!ng · 25-02-2013 12:44am

SoupMonster wrote: »

.....The fact that there are nuns involved is irrelevant. Who takes any notice of nuns anyway.

The nuns have taken a vow of chastity and you are never going to hear from them anything that does not support their own viewpoint, therefore they are biased and anything they say should not be taken at face value. Geraldine Rowley herself is a nun, I heard her on the Pat Kenny show about a year and a half ago say that they considered all the women in the Irish sex industry to be trafficked. That is not the case. And another thing, why is it they never mention men or transexuals, only women?

The Government should conduct its own, independent and unbiased, research into the sex industry.

SoupMonster · 25-02-2013 12:49am

aare wrote: »

The vast majority (over 95%) of sex workers are too horrified by Ruhama and "Turn off the Red Light (with cause) to have anything to do with them...

So that Ruhama and "Turn Off the Red Light" do not actually speak for ANYONE except themselves...

I can see where there is a conflict :-
On the one hand, there is a need for non-judgemental outreach to assist those who want to exit the business, medical services, policing issues, etc.

On the other hand, pro-prostitution players could very quickly create a very well-oiled and well financed lobby. There is a need for an anti-prostitution lobby. Otherwise there is no debate.

I would not see anyone going to TORL for help, this is simply a lobby group, lobbying to remove your industry. Fine.

Where they are afraid to go to Ruhama, this is a failure on the part of Ruhama, but then again you said it was only set up 4 years ago. Prostitutes are a close-knit bunch, distrustful of outsiders, upset at being judged, etc, so it may take time to build rapport.

Most well-run organisations welcome feedback from their customers. In this case, the sex-workers are the customers, y'all really should provide the feedback, tell them what services you need, point out when they are being judgemental, demand respect, etc.

A company I worked with before insisted we all asked our clients to grade our performance at the end of the job. What a fanciful idea for a hooker/john interaction. But seriously, we had to give the client a form, explain what it was and leave them to fill it out and send to our boss. The goal was to improve service, to actively solicit feedback.

So there, whether these concepts are new to you or not, they are yours to run with. You, collectively, will not improve your own outreach organisation if you don't try.

aare · 25-02-2013 2:44am

SoupMonster wrote: »

Where they are afraid to go to Ruhama, this is a failure on the part of Ruhama, but then again you said it was only set up 4 years ago.

Ruhama were set up in 1989 as a covert conduit for the Magdalene laundries. All they have ever done since is lie, misrepresent and prey on sex workers with no scruples whatsoever..

They also promote an ideology that is so far from reality as to be psychotic and will not even listen to any sex worker who does not pretend to agree with them.

That is why ordinary decent sex workers are horrified by Ruhama and do not want them anywhere near their lives or their families.

This is the only kind of sex worker who supports Ruhama:
http://sexwork.ie/2013/02/24/false-witness/

SoupMonster · 25-02-2013 3:04am

aare wrote: »

Excuse me, I know Laura quite well and a person less like a troll would be very hard to find!

I can't remember the last time I disagreed with something she said, a very nice, down to earth lady who sees and tells it the way it is.

In contrast I just got this link, explaining the type of person Ruhama and Turn Off the Red Light use to campaign against sex workers and it is pretty shocking stuff:
http://sexwork.ie/2013/02/24/false-witness/

I actually suspected that you were Laura. But then I thought, why would Laura make a submission to Justice Committee, why would Laura spend her time chatting here. So I decided you are not Laura.

If you do know her, and I have judged the book incorrectly form the web-content cover, then you may tell her

that her hairstyle is very nice, bohemian style suits her
she is good looking
she can write very well when she wants to
that she really should tone down some of her blog posts so she doesn't come across as a troll
she should apply what she demands of others, data, to herself
that she does come across as very heartless
that she should not be so accepting of deb-bondage
that I think she secretly loves Kristof, she seems obsessed with him!

Some of the more outrageous stuff was trolling on my part, and I hope she takes it in that spirit.

I am thinking of attending her talk. I'm sure she can be persuasive. She might even draw me over to the dark side. She would only be able to do that if she really is more compassionate that she appears in her writings. It would also be interesting to see audience reaction. People are so badly informed they are likely to believe the first reasoned argument they hear. I will bet that she will end her talk with a room full of admirers, to me that is sad.

Laura used a phrase 'industrial prostitution' to describe the worst kind. That was a phrase that I already had in mind for the 15 men a day brothels I have seen. I wanted to request her to write an article on the industrialisation of teen voluntary prostitution, but she has banned me.

Here are two news reports, on JK reflexology in parlours in Tokyo.

The phenomenon of compensated dating originated in Japan and spread throughout Asia. Man contacts teen girl, pays a teen girl for a date no sex so not prostitution, compensation for here time. At end of date go to a short-time hotel, negotiate sex, have sex. Girl buys new Gucci handbag, brags to friends about how great it is, friends all sign up.

These businesses industrialise the process and make money from it. Man goes to reflexology shop, selects girl he likes, man cuddles girl for required time, man pays to take girl out, go to a short-time hotel, ..., friends all sign up.

This is the industrialisation of teen voluntary prostitution, and like garlic bread, it is the future. In Tokyo, two years ago there was 1 such cafe, now there are a reported 170. After police attention, maybe they wont be so open about the Euro80 blow job from middle school girls in the future. I would be really interested in Laura's take on this.

SoupMonster · 25-02-2013 3:20am

aare wrote: »

Ruhama were set up in 1989 as a covert conduit ...

OK. I'll take your word for it. Is there nothing else available?
So that would indicate that there is an opening for a true outreach service, with no other agenda other than to help.

You seem smart enough, why not find an outreach service you like, English, Scottish, Dutch, whatever, get their business plan, organisational plans, operating procedures, etc, look for a politician who wants to be seen to be 'doing something', let him/her champion your cause, let him find you a decent
chief executive, and set up you own.
An added benefit, you might find Czarcasm working for you.

You would then become part of the rescue industry that Laura despises.

In your honest opinion, is it even worth it to have any outreach organisation?

aare · 25-02-2013 4:20am

SoupMonster wrote: »

I actually suspected that you were Laura. But then I thought, why would Laura make a submission to Justice Committee, why would Laura spend her time chatting here. So I decided you are not Laura.

If you do know her, and I have judged the book incorrectly form the web-content cover, then you may tell her
that her hairstyle is very nice, bohemian style suits her

she is good looking

she can write very well when she wants to

that she really should tone down some of her blog posts so she doesn't come across as a troll

she should apply what she demands of others, data, to herself

that she does come across as very heartless

that she should not be so accepting of deb-bondage

that I think she secretly loves Kristof, she seems obsessed with him!

Some of the more outrageous stuff was trolling on my part, and I hope she takes it in that spirit.

I am thinking of attending her talk. I'm sure she can be persuasive. She might even draw me over to the dark side. She would only be able to do that if she really is more compassionate that she appears in her writings. It would also be interesting to see audience reaction. People are so badly informed they are likely to believe the first reasoned argument they hear. I will bet that she will end her talk with a room full of admirers, to me that is sad.

Laura used a phrase 'industrial prostitution' to describe the worst kind. That was a phrase that I already had in mind for the 15 men a day brothels I have seen. I wanted to request her to write an article on the industrialisation of teen voluntary prostitution, but she has banned me.

Here are two news reports, on JK reflexology in parlours in Tokyo.

The phenomenon of compensated dating originated in Japan and spread throughout Asia. Man contacts teen girl, pays a teen girl for a date no sex so not prostitution, compensation for here time. At end of date go to a short-time hotel, negotiate sex, have sex. Girl buys new Gucci handbag, brags to friends about how great it is, friends all sign up.

These businesses industrialise the process and make money from it. Man goes to reflexology shop, selects girl he likes, man cuddles girl for required time, man pays to take girl out, go to a short-time hotel, ..., friends all sign up.

This is the industrialisation of teen voluntary prostitution, and like garlic bread, it is the future. In Tokyo, two years ago there was 1 such cafe, now there are a reported 170. After police attention, maybe they wont be so open about the Euro80 blow job from middle school girls in the future. I would be really interested in Laura's take on this.

Her take is that erotomanic stalkers keep her young...

aare · 25-02-2013 4:24am

SoupMonster wrote: »

OK. I'll take your word for it. Is there nothing else available?
So that would indicate that there is an opening for a true outreach service, with no other agenda other than to help.

You seem smart enough, why not find an outreach service you like, English, Scottish, Dutch, whatever, get their business plan, organisational plans, operating procedures, etc, look for a politician who wants to be seen to be 'doing something', let him/her champion your cause, let him find you a decent
chief executive, and set up you own.
An added benefit, you might find Czarcasm working for you.

You would then become part of the rescue industry that Laura despises.

In your honest opinion, is it even worth it to have any outreach organisation?

There is no need whatsoever for an outreach service of any kind, that is a myth Ruhama created and wrapped around themselves to keep their finding streams alive.

Sex workers are more than capable of dealing with available services directly, without malign artificial intercession.

Personally I would not have any part of the NGO sector at gunpoint, the interorganisational politics are WAY too dirty for me.

(How does your wife react to all that Laura Augustin ideation?)

SoupMonster · 25-02-2013 4:28am

The Th!ng wrote: »

The nuns have taken a vow of chastity a....
The Government should conduct its own, independent and unbiased, research into the sex industry.

Using the current American definition, transporting for the purpose of prostitution is trafficking, I think it is even possible to traffic yourself. So I am afraid that Laura Agustin is right, trafficking stats are a waste of time, we no longer separate those who move of the own accord, those who move willingly under direction of others, and those who are coerced or debt-bonded.

Because American laws are different from most Euro laws, any analysis or discussion that concentrates on US is not really applicable here. Unfortunately, because we are using the US trafficking definition, we have lost ability to size the problem. Doubtless the problem exists, but to what extent?

Regarding unbiased research, I think academic research it the best they are going to get. They did have two pro-sex work academics. Input from the girls themselves is notoriously hard to get, because they dont want to be 'outed'. I have never seen any research on customers.

In business it is customary and usually a good idea, to research the market, who are the customers, what is size of demand, are there substitute products/services, etc. Where are the customers who will stand up and say I want my prostitutes? Apparently its only 10% of males ever in their life, 2% in the last year. That is quite a small market. Has anyone done a survey of customers to see what they wanted? No.

Has anyone asked the people of the country whether they wanted prostitution to be criminalised/decriminalised/legalised, in any country? No.

Why not educate the people what we are talking about and then include a question in the next referendum/election? Guaranteed the outcome would be a resounding 75% in favour of criminalisation of buyers. All females and 50% of males. We end up criminalising buyers (men) only, because we fell sorry for the poor sellers (women).

Regarding men and transsexuals. They are not excluded from debate, its just so much simpler to talk about the classic call-girl scenario. I don't see any real difference whereby men/trans need special attention.

SoupMonster · 25-02-2013 4:32am

aare wrote: »

Her take is that erotomanic stalkers keep her young...

I had to look that up. Reverse eroromania maybe.

SoupMonster · 25-02-2013 4:42am

aare wrote: »

There is no need whatsoever ...
(How does your wife react to all that Laura Augustin ideation?)

I suspected as much.

ideation... Laura is new, only read her stuff yesterday/today. Wanted one up on the guys who come in with 'Rescue Industry", "nuns", etc, See if they really knew what they were referencing. Seemed no-one challenges her view, so I had a go. I will probably have forgotten about her tomorrow and erotoman about someone else.

SoupMonster · 25-02-2013 6:03am

CK73 wrote: »

Regarding anal.

I was reading thru some Australian research, there were some long time working girls in it.

In the 70s (in Aus at least) oral sex was uncommon. Some men would request it, but most women refused, they thought it was disgusting. But through the 80s it became more common and now is standard practice.

I noticed with surprise that oral without condom is standard in German FKKs, with come in mouth a standard option. I always thought STDs are also transmitted orally.

A the time of the research 1991 only an occasional man requested anal, all women refused. But as you say, prom is main-streaming it. It is also a standard option in all German FKKs. (I assume that girls who refuse to supply the house options will be asked to work elsewhere).

The market (men) will demand it and women will simply have to supply or quit working. That is what I took from the research. But this process is compounded by teens willingness to try these things. Anal will become a standard part of the prostitution service fairly quickly. If the guys girlfriend is willing to give it a go, they why not the hooker?

Within 5 to 10 years, the next boundary will loom, what will that be doubles, ass-to-mouth, rape-play, anyway something more unpleasant. And for some odd reason the guy will think he is perfectly normal.

How About You Don’t Ask To Come On My Face On The First Date?

I would hate to be a girl entering your industry.

SoupMonster · 25-02-2013 6:58am

CK73 wrote: »

I personally could not work in a brothel.
I like being Independent and I like being self employed.

The very last place you should work is in a brothel. This is by far the worst arrangement for the 'worker', you would be better off standing in the street in December. If there was any suggestion whatsoever that the government was going to introduce a regulated brothel-based model, every single sex-worker in the country should call in to their local TD and protest. You would lose your anonymity but only to one person.

In a brothel (Aussie/NZ style, the model held up as a model of modenity and recommended by UNAIDs)

You will be working standard 8 or 12 hour shifts.
You will be rostered, dont believe their ****e about flexibility.
Each time a customer walks in, you will undergo a "meat-rack" selection process.
You may not even be allowed to talk to the customer before selection.
You are competing against the prettiest or slimest or whatever there
You are selected on body/face alone, these customers truely are buying the girl, not buying the service
You will supply the brothels list of services*, not your list
You may negotiate your own extras, note that Navada brothels have eavesdropping devices to catch you doing that (they say its for your safety).
You will have a panic alarm, possibly with no-one on the other end.
You will receive 50%, brothel 50%
Prices are set by brothel owner, a random Sydney brothel 150Euro/hour.
You will have the right to refuse clients, but will be pressurised to accept.
You may be relocated to another brothel, usual refusal/pressure applies
You will provide you own consumables.
You may be required to do 'threesomes, foursomes, or moresomes'
You will be required to required to register
You may be fined for missing a shift, being late
You will pay tax
You will technically be a subcontractor, so no paid holidays, etc
Brothel owner can stack the shift
You will be referred to as a 'lady'

* Standard service includes kissing, oral, sex.
And I always thought 'ladies' found kissing to be most objectionable part from the service.

There may be further restrictions, for example Navada brothels insist you not own a car, and leave the county when not in the brothel, you are not free.

On a bad day, you could be sitting around waiting the entire day.
On a good day, you could entertain 10 guys in one day @Eur75 a pop, thats Eur750 yeah!
Average is probably 3 clients per day, 54,000/year. This is before tax.

If you earn more than this, that implies increased demand, so brothel owner recruits more girls, reduces your earnings. Number of girls per shift is at discretion of brothel owner, more girls maximises his profits, reduces yours.

Brothel working loses all the 'benefits' of prostitution, flexible hours, high wages, etc, all gone. Plus you are registered.

Best option for a regular girl currently working, retain status quo. Keep you current high fees.

Best option for a clever girl currently working, criminalise. Eliminate the foreign casuals from the market, very few new entrants. Work under the radar, be discreet, cultivate regulars, double your rates.

Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

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