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Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee
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Personally I would like to see zero tolerance with smoking. I've lost more friends and family and seen much more misery through that, than prostitution.0
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I've been out today having lunch with family members. One of them is now married to a man, who's daughter's Mum was pregnant to a man who was in prison. She had an order against him, because he was violent and when he got out of prison she had to move fast and was admitted to a place for women and children in need of help. They then offered her somewhere to live that she refused, funnily enough, because the place was known for street walkers and she didn't want her daughter (she already had one) living in an area like that. Eventually they found her a place in the town near her the the father of her first child, who has regular contact. They have bought all her white goods, furniture and paid to have the place decorated. All for free.
She also has a sister, who has a partner in and out of prison. She lives in council housing and has a child roughly every 7 years to avoid working. She is just about to have her 3rd baby.
Another case. A different family with a teenager who didn't want to toe the line at home. She left to live with various friends and finally bored of sleeping on sofas, she got herself pregnant and has now been housed by the council.
There are places to go if in trouble. Sex Work is not the first alternative, certainly not in the UK, so I would be interested to hear if Ireland is that much different?
The people that are struggling here are the ones that have worked all their lives and live on the bread line.
I deal with numerous cases like this every day, and that's only in my local area, I shudder to think what the real figures are like if you extrapolated that out nationally, never mind including countries like the UK or the US. I'll be honest I try not to think about it.I also know of ladies where their families do know what they are doing and have accepted it. Be it their immeditate family or all of them. An empty room at a funeral is not the case for all. Not everyone rejects their family out of hand. Look at homosexuals. Forty years ago men had to get married to women, despite wanting to be with a man. They had to toe the line and live a fantasy life, but that isn't like that any more. Although some families can't come to terms with it, many can and do and don't even have to think twice. It's called progress.
Progress is legislating for the practice of treating humanity as a tradeable commodity? Is that your idea of an evolved society? One which not only clings to an archaic and primitive practice but actually legislates for it is progress? I respectfully beg to differ tbh.Your friend that died serving in the Army. Do you feel that this is an occupation that should be banned with zero tolerants, or is it okay, because he died with people's respect?
I'm almost immune to the incoming shìtstorm at this stage so I'll just put this out there-
Remember the Vietnam War from your history and how the Americans thought they would wipe out the Vietnamese overnight? Teenagers signed up and couldn't wait to go fight for their country. They came back to a country that hated them. Many didn't come back at all. There were talks about how in the future no human lives would be lost because wars would become the very same as space invaders. Forty years later and America invades Kuwait- A second generation of teenagers went off to be blown to bits. The US government yet again shrugged their collective shoulders and said "sorry lads, didn't see that coming". It took them another ten years before they pulled out of Kuwait.
So ask me do I think people should needlessly be sacrificed in the name of "protecting their country"? I'd have to say no. Is there a need for the Army to teach young men and women discipline and comradery and respect for their fellow human beings? I'd have to say yes. The Army can be an incredibly rewarding career choice. Can the same be said of being a sex worker? Only if your idea of a rewarding occupation is the financial motivation.One more point. In the grand scheme of things, there are not many Irish Sex Workers in comparison to the other nationalities that come here specifically to work. Many come over for a few months at a time, make their money and then go back home for a while and live off the proceeds and then they return and do the same again.
Well I won't ask to see your statistics, but there have been others in the thread who support your position but would disagree with the above assertion. I myself haven't really taken much notice as people are people to me no matter where they're from or their background. If you had to put me on the spot I would say it's a pretty even split, but the foreign nationality sex workers dilute into mainly various Eastern European countries.0 -
The stats show that most of the trafficking in Ireland tends to be with regards to African women. I know stats are not favoured here, but it's around 2 thirds each year.
This new legislation is being brought forward in the name of trafficking. Not in the name of poverty or desperation, but being forced/coerced into Sex Work. This is my problem, as there is very little evidence of actual trafficking into Sex Work.
If many women are finding themselves as Sex Workers due to poverty, then perhaps that is the issue that should be being addressed, because to be honest, I think they are using the idea of trafficking as a carrot and not the real reason for bringing in new legislation.
My experience as a woman in the Army was not great. I was dehumanized by my boss and when I became ill, they couldn't kick me out quick enough. I was military personnel when I went into a coma and civilian when I came out of it.
I was also denied training and my rightful rank, because I was a woman in a male role and couldn't (due to the law) do patrols. They were a man down and took it out on me.
At least now I am in control of my destiny and not reliant on someone else playing fair.0 -
Do you volunteer with the Immigration council of Ireland? (Which is one of the core members of "Turn Off the Red Light"?)
No, the organisation I work for has nothing to do with TORL, they also have no religious bent, but I don't agree with their policy of only helping drug addicts who are clean for two months and so therefore often find myself working on a one to one basis with drug addicts outside the remit of the organisation. I was doing this before I ever joined the organisation. That can come with it's own host of problems though like the time I brought home a young polish girl and had her stay here for two weeks before I could arrange suitable accommodation and employment for her. My wife was used to me bringing home stray kittens and the odd homeless person but this was a straw, camel's back situation, to put it mildly!You say you want zero tolerance for all aspects of sex work...how is that not trying to stop someone from making a free choice to become a sex worker?
I'm at pains to stress that this is my own personal opinion. I don't see any necessity for sex workers, nor any need for anyone to become one. However, if that is what they choose to do having come to an informed decision and considered the alternatives, then I'm not going to stand in their way as long as they are over the age of consent. I would not let my personal opinions cloud my judgement. I've been at pains to stress that though I do not agree with somebody, it doesn't mean I won't support them or try to convince them I know better. I'm not a Jehovah witness!The Swedish Model, as promoted by "Turn Off the Red Light" strives to make it impossible to earn any money from sex work, if that is not striving to deny someone a free choice I don't know what is!
Sorry Aree but the only Swedish models I'm familiar with are Britt Eklund and Victoria Silvstedt. I'm just an ordinary guy and not a member of any special interest lobby groups. The only reason I voluntarily work with the charity I do is because it gives me access to resources that wouldn't otherwise be available to me to help people.0 -
GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
Not to sound condescening, and I could be wrong, but I have to commend you for trying to stay civil. Usually these discussions escalate and people get defensive by getting offensive. So, yeah, kudos:P
Anyway, the problem there is how society views sex workers, or even, to take a leap, AIDs. From reading this thread, there still seems to be a Victorian image of the prostitute as a "fallen woman" or even as a "corruptive woman." And I sometimes wonder if this is a new, quite stereotypical, way of viewing female sexuality, or even a female's own individual decision making. People who want to criminalize the procurement of sex seem to be using emotive examples of women, but not really any of men. Does anybody personally know of any male prostitutes?
But I'm not saying any side of this debate is sexist, as that is used as a bit of a lazy method of invalidating someone's opinion in a lot of debates.
GalwayGuy I can assure you that for me it isn't just a feminist issue, but a people issue, and I'm not here white knighting for anyone. I'm only here to offer an alternative perspective and you'll notice throughout my posts I have referred to sex workers as opposed to just women or men, and people who pay for sex as opposed to the common default assumption that only men pay for sex.
I know a few male sex workers, but tbh I could probably count that number maybe less than ten that I'd know really well. Some of those men provide services exclusively to men, some exclusively to women, I don't personally know any that serve both, but I have no doubt they exist, and then there are a number of sex workers I know that have been known to go gay for pay, or lesbian for pay if you will.0 -
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GalwayGuy I can assure you that for me it isn't just a feminist issue, but a people issue, and I'm not here white knighting for anyone. I'm only here to offer an alternative perspective and you'll notice throughout my posts I have referred to sex workers as opposed to just women or men, and people who pay for sex as opposed to the common default assumption that only men pay for sex.
I know a few male sex workers, but tbh I could probably count that number maybe less than ten that I'd know really well. Some of those men provide services exclusively to men, some exclusively to women, I don't personally know any that serve both, but I have no doubt they exist, and then there are a number of sex workers I know that have been known to go gay for pay, or lesbian for pay if you will.
Oh, that male prostitute thing just kind of slipped into my post. Didn't really have any point. It was more of a thinking aloud moment, rather than a "Omg evil feminists aren't thinking about men" moment.0 -
GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
Oh, that male prostitute thing just kind of slipped into my post. Didn't really have any point. It was more of a thinking aloud moment, rather than a "Omg evil feminists aren't thinking about men" moment.
Still a good point GG as it allowed me to further show I'm not some lobbyist loony with some hidden agenda nonsense.
CK introduces another perspective yet again that hasn't been discussed in the thread. I haven't experienced any African sex workers at all now I think of it. I know there are some that work from apartments, but I haven't actually had interactions with them, nor the Brazillian sex workers I know of.
I only offer help where I'm asked for help. I don't go around knocking on apartment doors touting MY services! People come to the organisation I work for or ask me for help. Sometimes I will offer help to people, but it wouldn't be as part of my business or my work, it's just off my own back.0 -
Thanks for you honest and objective response.
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Like it or not it remains a fact that there would be significant financial benefits in attracting sex tourism, there is no point lying about it. Any more than they would be any point in lying and pretending that sex tourism would be culturally acceptable in an Irish context, because, right or wrong it would not be.
Agree, sex tourism would not be acceptable here.
Germany seems to be the best place for that now. But to quote from wikipedia
"In 2002 a one page law sponsored by the Green Party was passed by the ruling coalition of Social Democrats and Greens in the Bundestag. The law removed the general prohibition on furthering prostitution and allowed prostitutes to obtain regular work contracts. The law's rationale stated that prostitution should not be considered as immoral anymore."
and
"In 2009, the Bundessozialgericht ruled that the German job agencies are not required to find prostitutes for open positions in brothels. The court rejected the complaint of a brothel owner who had argued that the law of 2002 had turned prostitution into a job like any other; the judges ruled that the law had been passed to protect the employees, not to further the business."
Maybe wikipedia is misleading me but these seem contradictory, and possible open to future legal challenge. It is conceivable that a future court could rule in favour of a brothel owner resulting in all unemployed females in Germany suddenly facing the possibility of state enforced prostitution ... but then again it only work like. This is not too dissimilar to the Toronto courts decision that all restrictions on prostitution infringed on the sex workers human rights, taking almost everyone by surprise and creating a legislative panic.
Well, I'm glad its happening in the land of our German overlords and not here.
I'm sure you are well aware of the abuses that occur in the sex tourism destinations, Thailand, Philippines, Dubai, Cambodia, Myanmar, Tiajuana ..., i accept that the scale may be exaggerated or there may be an element of moral panic, but that does not mean there are not significant and serious abuses that only exist in order to feed market demand. I would prefer that this did not exist in the towns,cities, countries my daughters live in.
As for Holland, they are closing down windows, have a problem with loverboys, have continuing problems with crime and trafficing, and says Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam, "We've realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities".
My personal perspective is heavily influenced by my concern for my daughters well-being and happiness. I have lived right beside a red-light area in another country, and have had to make detours to avoid certain streets because my wife will not walk down 'that fcuking road'.
A quote from Christine Overall that concisely encapsulates my views.
'"Rather than subvert patriarchal ideology, the prostitute's actions, and
the industry as a whole, serve to perpetuate" women's social subordina-
tion. Indeed, the existence of prostitution implies that women can "profit
economically from patriarchy."61 Thus if, as some sex workers claim,
some prostitutes genuinely choose the work they do, then they carry a
responsibility for that work: at the very least, to recognize and evaluate
its meaning, its implications, and its effects on other women and on
themselves.'
I was happy that we living in one of the most gender equal countries in the world (5th) and pointed this out to my daughter, 'like ****e' was her response.
Its bad enough that girls have to spend 30 mins or so making up before they can even go out in public without people commenting, that they must endure the mysogyny in the media, that people continuously comment on their bodies, that they cant walk on the street after dark without being scared out their wits whenever a stranger walks nearby, that they are asked "who did you sleep with to get that job". That last one was said, in mixed company, of a 40-year old woman in a UK pub, she was very upset and physically shaking when she complained to me that neither I or anyone else spoke up to defend her.
Or maybe she could work her way up to be a top salesperson in an insurance company. The reward/bonus, get to watch you colleagues fcuk some girls in Budapest. I'm sure all the female staff feel real good working there. Equally I'm sure lots of the top 100 sales people though it was a great idea.
Gotta stop now, I'm just too angry.0 -
SoupMonster wrote: »My personal perspective is heavily influenced by my concern for my daughters well-being and happiness. I have lived right beside a red-light area in another country, and have had to make detours to avoid certain streets because my wife will not walk down 'that fcuking road'.
Be that as it may, any woman is always far safer in a red light district at night than in the surrounding street. Simple reason, sex workers and their clients are PEOPLE who will not stand around and watch someone attacked, or mugged without some attempt to intervene. So a red light district is as pretty much safe as Tesco. (I have, quite incidentally, lived in several, in more than one country).
If you are concerned that your daughter should never have to sell sex then you should focus on making sure that you are always there to support her and that she feels she can come to you with literally *ANY* problem she finds herself in. Taking away the livelihood other people need and choose will have no affect on your daughter's well being and happiness whatsoever...
She is becoming a woman, it is normal to spend far more than 30 minutes getting ready to go out (I have always spent 2 or 3 hours). That is nothing to DO with gender equality, it is one of the great joys of femininity and being a woman...and, as long as nor belly button, nor cleavage, nor thigh is on display before age 18 the wise and loving father sucks that up with an absent minded smile and makes no comment.0 -
We are no where near equality in the work place, although it is slowly changing in the right direction (very slowly). There are some exceptional women that manage to get there, but many that are better than their male counter parts remain beneath them in rank and wage.
Maybe that is one of the reasons why women look at prostitution as an option, as it is one of the few jobs where we can get a good wage and excel in. After all there is nothing stopping men being prostitutes, but in the main their services are not sort after, unless it is a man looking for a man. Which means you either have to be bi/homosexual or go against your own sexuality to fulfill the need. Personally I could not service a woman, as a heterosexual, so this would be quite disturbing and not an option for me.
Looking back at my previous jobs in the work place. The jobs I had were mostly gender led, ie mostly women on the work floor and men at the top. Although I did get patted on the back when I did well, my wages were minimal and remained minimal after the bonus.
Life as a single woman is very hard. You don't have to be on the poverty line to be struggling. I imagine that most women average a wage in the £20,000's where men are in the £30,000's bracket, when established in their jobs.
Even the higher end careers (or mid stream) like Teaching and Nursing tend to not rise above the £30's and £40 grand band, which can still be a struggle when bringing up a family single handed, especially when you need to factor in childcare and after school clubs.
Maybe Sex Work, would be less desirable an option, if the options in the work force were more equal and wages more in line with the price of living?0 -
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Maybe Sex Work, would be less desirable an option, if the options in the work force were more equal and wages more in line with the price of living?
I agree with some of what you're saying CK, disagree with more of it though, but I'm not going to get into a gender equality debate about it.
I just want to pick you up on that last point. I have never met a young person yet in the 15 years I'm doing this that ever said to me when questioned what they really wanted to do with their lives-
"I want to be a sex worker /prostitute / porn star / rent boy / gigolo (whatever name you fancy)".
They've said it to me in a defiant way alright trying to be smart and evoke a reaction (after the thousandth time hearing it, it gets old!), but when you get through to them and watch as their previously "dead behind the eyeballs" eyes light up and they get animated telling you about something they're passionate about, that's why I do what I do, and I have helped young people get started on career paths as chefs, quantity surveyors, games designers, many more different occupations they were passionate about besides sex work.
To Aree that said I walk away after my "work" is done- I'm still in regular contact with a lot of the people I've helped, including the chap that got dumped battered and blue out of a 5 series BMW six years ago (I was at his front gate supposed to have met him an hour earlier), he's now a chef in a top Irish hotel, an intense job and hard graft, but he loves it, and as for the money, well the guy who dumped him out of the BMW didn't pay him, so he's earning more than zero now.
My point being that sure, the money in sex work is better if you're unqualified to do anything else, but if you're determined and passionate enough about what you really want to do and you're supported in that, then your long term career prospects and your financial remuneration for same, increase exponentially.
Here's one Eastern European woman who shows you what can be achieved when you're determined to fulfil your potential-
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0222/1224312162568.html
You can dismiss her as an exceptional case, but the more people like her realise their potential, the less will get involved in sex work, and the archaic and primitive practice will die out of it's own accord, and the less people like her are regarded as the exception.0 -
We are no where near equality in the work place...
Maybe Sex Work, would be less desirable an option, if the options in the work force were more equal and wages more in line with the price of living?
For you info. World Economic Forum's , Global Gender Gap Report 2012 Page 10.
Puts Ireland in fifth place overall after Iceland, Finland, Norway and Sweden.
Followed by New Zealand Denmark, Philippines.
The economic opportunity gap (where Ireland is placed 29th world-wide) is based on- the participation gap,
- the remuneration gap and
- the advancement gap.
and the variables you were looking for
Estimated earned income Female 29,988, Male 53,273 and Ranking 19th.
Labour force participation Female 64, Male 81, Rank 64th
Professional and technical workers, Female 53, Male 47, Rank 35th
Legislators, senior officials and managers, Female 32, Male 68, Rank 48th
So there you have it in black and white.- Women earn much less than men on average.
- More men working than women, as we might expect.
- Lots of women in professional/technical roles.
- But women are hugely under-represented in the senior roles.
There is no country in the world where women out earn men.
I guess the earned income gap can be explained by women leaving the work-force before they have reached their full earning potential to raise kids and maybe later rejoining, possibly having to rejoin at a lesser level than they left off. But the income ranking of 19th place shows that there is room for improvement.
Under-representation at senior management might be explained away by the same argument but a ranking of 48th versus UK's 36th does not support that unless UK women make more use of creches and don't stay home to raise their kids, I don't know.
To directly address the idea that increased earned incomes would obviate the need to engage in sex work, we would really need to get the income data for the pool of potential sex-workers. In order words, to be flippant for a second,
we need to find out the income profile of the 18-30year olds who are reasonably attractive, nice bodies, hard-skinned and 'eager to please'. Because without good ratings, bookings will decrease. [End flippancy]
Prices are high and times are hard, but this applies to vast swathes of young people, especially those with gigantic morgages and low earnings, or suddenly unemployed. I am not an escorting insider, but has there been a major influx of the newly impoverished native Irish into prostitution over the last few years or is it still primarily the exotic fruit, Slavs, Brazilians, Asians?
Regarding Africans, most Africans here are Nigerian I believe, so
Earned Income Nigeria, Female 1,841, Male 3,206 Rank 74.
And Nigeria is comparatively rich by sub-saharan standards.
Escorting here would be very attractive to any Nigerian woman, especially if you believe that you could make 1000-2000 per week. She could pay off her debt bondage in just 10 weeks at that rate, and from then on its a full years pay per week.
I read that Olso is plagued with Nigerians, but many are tricked and coerced using juju magic. Czarcasm might have to learn how to lift juju curses.
Hope the data helps in some way.0 -
SoupMonster wrote: »
I read that Olso is plagued with Nigerians, but many are tricked and coerced using juju magic. Czarcasm might have to learn how to lift juju curses.
Hope the data helps in some way.
I can speak seven different languages but juju ain't one of 'em! :pac:
Ah no, the handful of Nigerian friends I have speak French for the most part among themselves, but have pretty good English too so it's all good. None of them are sex workers though.
Anyway, seriously- quality post Soupy, and that's from someone who detests statistics!
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GalwayGuy2 wrote: »From reading this thread, there still seems to be a Victorian image of the prostitute as a "fallen woman" or even as a "corruptive woman." And I sometimes wonder if this is a new, quite stereotypical, way of viewing female sexuality, or even a female's own individual decision making.
On the origin of the fallen woman concept. Taken from Chapter 1: Sex workers or scarlet women?
"Do you know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two shall become one flesh." But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun Immorality (Corinthians 6:15-18)
The most ardent opponent of prostitution at the time was St Augustine, who invented the concept of original sin to explain the lust of men and the evil incarnate of women. He strongly alluded to the fact that the presence of prostitutes in society threatened good women:
What is more base, empty of worth, and full of vileness than harlots and other such pests?... Let them be with matrons and you will produce contamination and disgrace (Augustine of Hippo; Migne).
Yet Augustine had a practical side too, for he also said that harlots "fill a most vile function under the laws of order", because, he warned, "take away harlots from society and you will have tainted everything with lust." Thus was born the idea of prostitution as a necessary evil.
Centuries later the great medieval theologian, St Thomas Aquinas would elaborate on this theme:
Rid society of prostitutes and licentiousness will run riot throughout. Prostitutes in a city are like a sewer in a palace. If you get rid of the sewer, the whole place becomes filthy and foul (Thomas 2:2)."
So its a Christian concept. We can thank St Augustine and Tomas Aquinas, who must have been very influential at the time since we still know their names and quote them. These guys did not go in for the political correctness.
Other cultures have different concepts with some strange historical anecdotes.
"According to Herodotus, every woman in Babylon was obliged to prostitute herself on the steps of the temple of the goddess, Mylitta, at least once in her lifetime. It was not a task relished by many women, we are told, but they endured it as a task of duty. Even though the proceeds went to the temple, this toil sounds like unpaid work."
Sounds odd. You would have to stake out the temple waiting for that girl-next-door you have always lusted after to take her turn. I had the nickname 'Whore of Babylon" once but I never then this little nugget of info.
"Clement of Alexandria reported that on Cyprus women sold sexual services in the temple of Aphrodite in order to earn enough for their dowries. These women, too, might have considered this toil work (Henriques 1962)"
Wonder who fixed the sum required as dowry,0 -
Czarcasm,
I'm good with numbers and hard facts, but tend to get a bit incoherent when emotional. I can only commend you on your ability to be put forward a clear and concise arguments in a very civil manner in circumstances where I would be fuming with rage.0 -
SoupMonster wrote: »Czarcasm,
I'm good with numbers and hard facts, but tend to get a bit incoherent when emotional. I can only commend you on your ability to be put forward a clear and concise arguments in a very civil manner in circumstances where I would be fuming with rage.
Thread would've been locked five posts in Soupy tbh if I'd told the OP what I really thought of her use of the abuse of women in the Magdelene laundries to wedge in legislation for what I personally see as the abuse of yet another generation of not just women but men and young people too who are exploited.
From then on I knew it was never going to be an easy discussion but it's a necessary one, that's why I had to leave the discussion a couple of times to calm down so I could come back with a level head.
The government got it wrong the first time, I just wouldn't like to see them another forty years from now shrug their collective shoulders and say for a second time- "yeah we didn't see that coming".
Off Topic: I was just talking to one of the lads there and he told me that he and his friends that speak french are from Togo, but some of his friends are from Nigeria so that's why they speak sometimes in english and sometimes in french, because Nigerians learn french as a business language the same way we do here.0 -
Thread would've been locked five posts in ...
I watched the Magdelene thread for a wee while and was amazed by people who comment in vile language without even thinking. Right or wrong, the fact remains that the initial setup was charitable and good intentioned and a duty of care also fell on government and the parents of the children, who apparently were happy to abandon them completely.
As I understand it, there are 2 Sister of Charity or something on the board on Rumaha and all the other staff are regular folk. When googling how to spell that I came across this, so there you go.
So we are supposed to revile the two sisters for trying to be a force for good in the world. We are supposed to blame them for their predecessors running an institution (badly) to house and feed children that nobody wanted, including the parents. At least they did not die of hypothermia sleeping in the street.
And inventing some kind of Rescue Industry it laughable. Are we supposed to think that all donations are consumed by the staff and that is the sole purpose of the organisation, that its intention is to grow itself bigger and maximise its own profits. That there is some kind of conspiracy going on.
I have no idea how effective they are at getting girls out of this 'industry', but I suspect they are doing a damn good job at lobbying against the expansion and preventing people entering the 'industry'. I calculated the expected number of prostitutes Ireland would have if we were as as hooker-happy as the Germans, Spanish, Australians or Israelis, 10,000. All the estimates I have seen are in the 600 to 1000 range. If we allow that 50% are foreign, that is maximum 500 Irish women and children. Lets allow for 5% being underage (not untypical) 25 children. Not so bad. Many pro-prostitution would be happy to say that is a low number and one should not curtail the freedoms of the many to protect so few.
Looking at the Australian Brothel Association, it is a very well funded lobby, that is driving a very expansionist industry. It seems to be able to bully town councils into giving permits for brothels in towns where the citizens have clearly declared their opposition to the 'industry'. The sex business's interests (read brothel owner's interest) is clearly more important than that of the community. It continuously petitions for changes to allow brothels in residential areas. It resists any attempt to force brothels to verify that their workers are over 18. It represents gangsters who run 1 or 2 illegal brothers for each legal one they own, registering workers at the legal one but stationing them at the illegal. It has influenced laws so that police have no supervisory powers over a notoriously corrupt industry, leaving that to the local town council and the planning board, like that will to be effective, or combat corruption, it hasn't.
Do not watch this documentary if trafficing, enslavement or murder upset you.
Ireland needs a powerful anti-prostitution lobby that can resist the might of the sex industry, 2nd biggest industry in the world apparently, and by far the most corrupt.
Are far as this Justice Committee is concerned you could wheel as many crack whores or high class escorts in front of them as you want, the result will be either criminalise purchase or status quo ante. If we cant have a casino, we definitely cant have brothels.
There is a clear movement worldwide to criminalise purchase, this committee could accelerate this process if it adopted this model. At minimum it would decrease demand saving 100s of thousands of children and women from a life of misery.
Was looking for the total number of children world-wide affected but could not find it. Found these though:-
"It is estimated that there are about 500,000 prostituted children in Peru."
"According to the Protection Project report, various official sources agree that from 250,000 to 500,000 children lived in prostitution, but other sources in Brazil put the number at up to 2,000,000 children."
Wiki
These numbers are mind-blowing.
What can we do to stop the slaughter injustice?0 -
I guess they never watched 'Jesus Christ Super Star' then, as Mary had a pretty star role in that and she was treated with respect by Jesus, but I guess it is just a story.0
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SoupMonster wrote: »What can we do to stop the slaughter injustice?
Here's what really, I mean REALLY bugs me (having just read over the last 30 odd pages of the thread again)-
The OP hasn't been back to the thread since the shìt really hit the fan around page ten or so, and that's what I'm thinking will happen if the sex industry is opened up in Ireland to all comers.
The more organised UK and European sex workers will invade en masse, because like any business looking to diversify, they are always looking for new markets.
The Irish government will wait for the windfall of tax revenue, but there won't be any because all the Irish sex workers will be working for cash in hand just like the cowboys in any other trade, and the UK and European sex workers won't be registered to pay tax in Ireland.
All throughout this discussion some people have expressed "safety concerns" for sex workers as the reason why they want the industry regulated. Here's an idea- Don't bloody encourage people in the industry if you care that much about them! If people don't use them, the market dies on it's àrse.
People have expressed concerns for the welfare and families of the people that are arrested for using them. Well what's good for the goose is surely good for the gander? If advoctes for regulation can say sex workers are adults and can make their own decisions, then why should we have any sympathy for the adults that make a conscious choice to use them, fully aware of the possible consequences of their decisions? If they don't want to be named and shamed, don't fcuking use sex workers! It's so simple a child could understand it! I won't even go into how easy it is to get addicted to sex workers because some of them are very, very good at their jobs, to the point where like any addiction you'll do some pretty shìtty things to those around you to get money to feed the addiction.
What? You hardly thought only affluent business men and women with money used sex workers did you? As CK mentioned, clients come from every walk of life, and the tart with a heart is a myth. Sex workers are bloody ruthless. They have to be because it is a business and businesses have overheads, and they don't in business very long if as CK said, they entertain hagglers. The more desperate ones will, and that's when they get sloppy and go out of business. There's not as big a market for the gummy granny as there is the fresh faced virgin or the twink with the cheeky wink.
Anyone that thinks regulation of the industry in Ireland will make it safer for anyone but the few affluent UK sex workers is kidding themselves. We'll still have the cowboy traders just the same as in any other industry that will take increased risks for less money and people have mentioned it already how they're all undercutting each other in the UK. When prices were mentioned in the thread, suddenly advocates of sex workers tried to shut it down quick by saying how "classless" it was to be discussing prices for the provision of sexual services. No class? You're paying for sex for christ sake, get out with your "no class" bullshìt! One poster even went so far as to say it was nobody elses business!
Why should their prices for services be exempt from discussion then if they want to be seen as just like any other industry? Are consumers of their services not entitled know these things? What way will they legislate for consumers rights? Will every consumer be guaranteed a happy ending and will there be refunds if they don't get it? Will current sale of goods and services acts apply?
What can be done to stop it? Educate people for christ sake. We haven't even got a decent sex education system in place in this country between the parents blaming the media, the schools giving some embarrassing and inept hands to wipe their àrse effort, and the kids are filling in the blanks with misguided bits of information from each other. I won't even bother with the internet and technology aspect, that's a whole subject of it's own.
Bang on all you want about the "catholic church Ireland", but the fact is they haven't been relevant in Irish society for at least the last ten years. The fact is that as a society we are still incredibly immature when it comes to sex, or the discussion of sex, or even dealing with our sexual health.
Hell every time I posted in this thread I had to keep in mind "PG-13, cut that out, you can't say x, y, z... people don't want to listen to stomach churning or scare mongering, keep it clean, keep it simple, keep yourself from getting site banned!".
I say as a society we have a hell of a lot more maturing to do when it comes to sex before we can even think about opening that pandora's box. Maybe when we do grow up a small bit and mature, we'll realise that nobody should "need" sex, that we can outgrow our primitive instincts and actually evolve into a civilised society with zero tolerance for those that treat others with a lack of dignity or respect and think that humanity is a tradeable commodity.0 -
I caught a few minutes of a radio discussion today...people are VERY angry, the general consensus seems to be that the the orders involved in the laundries should disband for shame and penance.
Of course, there is always the the idiot who thinks it was all very well intentioned so there is no harm in funding them to do it all over again.
As a matter of fact and record, two Laundry Orders, The Good Shepherd Sisters, and the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity are joint founders and trustees of Ruhama.
http://www.ruhama.ie/page.php?intPageID=138
At least three current Directors are sisters of those orders and not all Sisters are in any way designated as such:
https://www.duedil.com/company/IE209799/ruhama/people
Ruhama was founded 4 years before the laundries were exposed and 7 years before they were closed.
The founding sisters certainly did their best to force a great many things upon the world, but good never featured highly among them.
I have never heard a child in school express a burning ambition to be on a CE scheme...0 -
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People have expressed concerns for the welfare and families of the people that are arrested for using them. Well what's good for the goose is surely good for the gander? If advoctes for regulation can say sex workers are adults and can make their own decisions, then why should we have any sympathy for the adults that make a conscious choice to use them, fully aware of the possible consequences of their decisions? If they don't want to be named and shamed, don't fcuking use sex workers! It's so simple a child could understand it!
No child has any control over whether his father buys sex or not, yet you advocate naming and shaming that will impact perhaps worse on the child than on the father.0 -
No child has any control over whether his father buys sex or not, yet you advocate naming and shaming that will impact perhaps worse on the child than on the father.
What? I thought the whole "won't somebody think of the children?" argument was the sole preserve of those OPPOSED to sex workers?
If there's nothing to be ashamed of in visiting a sex worker, then why couldn't you just explain to your child that you broke the rules and now have to face punishment?
Give your child some credit for their intelligence in all fairness!
EDIT: I shouldn't have had to at this stage, but I would just like to point out that men are not the only people buying sex, women and mothers are buying sex too, and teenagers are buying sex from teenagers.
Fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, cousins, whatever, if you are buying sex, you know damn well what you're doing, and you know the consequences. You are as much what you consider a consenting adult as the person you are buying sex from. The fact that you have a family or a "reputation" to keep, doesn't mean diddly squat if it's so easy for you to disregard the dignity and respect of another human being for merely your own gratification. These people should be named and shamed, might put others off the idea, and that's no bad thing in my opinion.0 -
If there's nothing to be ashamed of in visiting a sex worker, then why couldn't you just explain to your child that you broke the rules and now have to face punishment?
How does that work from the point of view of a child as an individual, not an extension of his father...
...or don't you believe that children are more than just extensions of their parents?0 -
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How does that work from the point of view of a child as an individual, not an extension of his father...
...or don't you believe that children are more than just extensions of their parents?
I think you misunderstood what I meant there originally aare, I didn't mean any particular person's children, I meant that if you engage the services of a sex worker, you know there's every possibility you could get caught and your name released to the media.
That's what is so simple that a child could understand it, so an adult should definitely understand it.0 -
I think you misunderstood what I meant there originally aare, I didn't mean any particular person's children, I meant that if you engage the services of a sex worker, you know there's every possibility you could get caught and your name released to the media.
That's what is so simple that a child could understand it, so an adult should definitely understand it.
Apparently the fact that publishing such information has the affect of punishing the innocent, powerless child for the father's choices is too sophisticated for you to grasp.0 -
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Apparently the fact that publishing such information has the affect of punishing the innocent, powerless child for the father's choices is too sophisticated for you to grasp.
arees it was simply we got our wires crossed is all and I misunderstood what you were asking, there's no need to resort to petty jibes. This thread has been brilliant so far with the amount of information it's brought to the fore and the great contributions that have been made by all posters involved. Do we really want to go like the train wreck that is the "what's wrong with prostitution?" thread after all the progress that's been made here? We've all managed to keep it civil and respected each others opinions even though we often disagreed, so lets try and keep it that way.
Now, to answer your question-
Consider who is actually the responsible party in that scenario-
It's clearly not the child's fault.
It's not the sex workers fault as they did not force the person into the room.
It's not the fault of the garda who made the arrest. They did not force the person into the room.
It's not the fault of the judge who passed sentence on the person, they did not force the person to visit the sex worker.
It's clearly not the medias fault who report on court cases as they did not force the person to visit the sex worker.
It is the fault of the person who, knowing they could have their name published in the media, chose to forego this risk in order to visit the sex worker.
It is this person who, knowing their child could find out, chose to forego this risk in order to visit the sex worker.
Are you suggesting that this person should be absolved of taking personal responsibility for their actions when they were fully aware of all the possible consequences?
They had all the information in hand to enable them to make informed choices and they had alternative options, yet they chose to forego all these alternative choices and knowingly break the law to seek sexual gratification from a sex worker.
The person responsible for the pain and suffering of the innocent child is the persons relative, be it their father, mother, uncle, aunt, brother, sister, whoever.
It's called taking personal responsibility for one's actions.
To answer your second question, no I do not think a child is an extension of their parents, I consider children very much individuals. That is a core part of my philosophy of working with children and young people in families living in disadvantaged areas. These young people and children do not have to slip into the same poverty and society trap their parents did. I inspire THEM to break that cycle, show them that they don't have to inherit the mantle of misery their parents are burdened with if they really don't want to.
It's actually easier to inspire personal responsibility in the children than it is their parents because the parents can be so used to having resigned themselves to "their lot in life", that it takes a lot longer to get them to see that they really don't need my help, they have the potential and the capability within themselves to get themselves out of the poverty and social entrapment they inherited from their parents!
Let me give you an even better example again-
At the weekend I set up a network testbed of three laptops and a server to test my son's pentest skills (network penetration testing, testing firewall and security policies on a network).
I found out later that he had passed the tests and then tried to be smart and went on to try and get past the security on my work laptop on a different network. When he couldn't do it, he got frustrated and shoved my work laptop off my desk and onto the floor, damaging the hard drive.
I came home and my wife told me what happened. I told my son that he knew better than to try for my work laptop, and then informed him that the cost of the new hard drive would be coming out of his savings.
He threw a strop for a bit (as eight year old's tend to do when they don't get their own way), but then I reminded him that he had to take personal responsibility for his actions because he knew the possible consequences. If he breaks something around here, he pays for the replacement out of his savings. It teaches him personal responsibility and teaches him that better decisions makes for better actions which makes for better consequences, while bad decisions, well, they have consequences too.0 -
arees it was simply we got our wires crossed is all and I misunderstood what you were asking, there's no need to resort to petty jibes. This thread has been brilliant so far with the amount of information it's brought to the fore and the great contributions that have been made by all posters involved. Do we really want to go like the train wreck that is the "what's wrong with prostitution?" thread after all the progress that's been made here? We've all managed to keep it civil and respected each others opinions even though we often disagreed, so lets try and keep it that way.
Now, to answer your question-
Consider who is actually the responsible party in that scenario-
It's clearly not the child's fault.
It's not the sex workers fault as they did not force the person into the room.
It's not the fault of the garda who made the arrest. They did not force the person into the room.
It's not the fault of the judge who passed sentence on the person, they did not force the person to visit the sex worker.
It's clearly not the medias fault who report on court cases as they did not force the person to visit the sex worker.
It is the fault of the person who, knowing they could have their name published in the media, chose to forego this risk in order to visit the sex worker.
It is this person who, knowing their child could find out, chose to forego this risk in order to visit the sex worker.
Are you suggesting that this person should be absolved of taking personal responsibility for their actions when they were fully aware of all the possible consequences?
They had all the information in hand to enable them to make informed choices and they had alternative options, yet they chose to forego all these alternative choices and knowingly break the law to seek sexual gratification from a sex worker.
The person responsible for the pain and suffering of the innocent child is the persons relative, be it their father, mother, uncle, aunt, brother, sister, whoever.
Rubbish...the state in knowingly creating legislation that will impact on innocent children as much as and more than the person responsible has joint responsibility.It's called taking personal responsibility for one's actions.
No, it is actually called "having your children held hostage by the state to impose control on you" (BTW do you know that trying to change a person's name is a clear "tell" for a pathological compulsion to control?)To answer your second question, no I do not think a child is an extension of their parents, I consider children very much individuals. That is a core part of my philosophy of working with children and young people in families living in disadvantaged areas. These young people and children do not have to slip into the same poverty and society trap their parents did. I inspire THEM to break that cycle, show them that they don't have to inherit the mantle of misery their parents are burdened with if they really don't want to.
No you don't, you shoehorn them onto CE schemes that are just as likely to have the opposite effect.It's actually easier to inspire personal responsibility in the children than it is their parents because the parents can be so used to having resigned themselves to "their lot in life", that it takes a lot longer to get them to see that they really don't need my help, they have the potential and the capability within themselves to get themselves out of the poverty and social entrapment they inherited from their parents!
So you think sex work legislation should strive to inspire a sense of personal responsibility in the children?
Are you thinking along the lines of those weird "pester your parent into quitting smoking" programs some schools run that are recipes for parental alienation?
"Daddy, if you sh*g hoors you will be placing me at risk of secondary consequences"
:rolleyes:0 -
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A man who visits a woman who is willing to spend time with him and profit from the experience is committing no crime! It is not disgusting, sordid or something to be ashamed of and should not impact on any family members.
A man who visits a woman and is with her against her will, but for money continues is a criminal, because he is committing rape. The consent is through a third person and no one but the lady herself can give that consent. This man deserves to be thrown the book.
The law needs to be able to distinguish between the two and stop clumping them together and making out that it is impossible to tell the difference.
Sex is part of life, people do it every day. As long as it is with consent and with protection, it should not be the concern of anyone else and who are they to be superior and tell them that they are doing something wrong? There is no shame in sex between two consenting adults.0
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