Exclusion of Sex Workers from Justice Committee

Mr. Loverman

Czarcasm wrote: »

I want to see legislation that would implement a zero tolerance policy on sex workers and those that avail of their services.

I'm sure you're a nice fella, but I find it extremely sad that in 2013 there are still people who have such an archaic view of sex.

Women are not pathetic; they are capable of choosing how they live their life, whether that means they have sex for money or for free or not at all or however they want.

Sex is not dirty or shameful; it's as natural as eating and sleeping.

I don't know why some sections of society continue to twist sex in an attempt to turn it into something it's not.

I don't want to get into a debate with you, I probably won't post anything else in this thread.

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

A man who visits a woman who is willing to spend time with him and profit from the experience is committing no crime! It is not disgusting, sordid or something to be ashamed of and should not impact on any family members.

A man who visits a woman and is with her against her will, but for money continues is a criminal, because he is committing rape. The consent is through a third person and no one but the lady herself can give that consent. This man deserves to be thrown the book.

The law needs to be able to distinguish between the two and stop clumping them together and making out that it is impossible to tell the difference.

Sex is part of life, people do it every day. As long as it is with consent and with protection, it should not be the concern of anyone else and who are they to be superior and tell them that they are doing something wrong? There is no shame in sex between two consenting adults.

If he visits a girl that he found on an escort site then how is he to know if the girl is providing the service against her will?

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If he visits a girl that he found on an escort site then how is he to know if the girl is providing the service against her will?

I would say body language is very telling, maybe she is crying or holding back tears, she is not behaving in a way where she is sexual towards him and not wanting to be kissed or touched.

A woman who has fear in her eyes?

Are you telling me that you can't tell when you were with a girl who didn't want to go further with you? If that were the case, there would be rape all the time. What are the point of having senses if you can't read them? Understandable if you have aspergers, but otherwise.

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

I would say body language is very telling, maybe she is crying or holding back tears, she is not behaving in a way where she is sexual towards him and not wanting to be kissed or touched.

A woman who has fear in her eyes?

Are you telling me that you can't tell when you were with a girl who didn't want to go further with you? If that were the case, there would be rape all the time. What are the point of having senses if you can't read them? Understandable if you have aspergers, but otherwise.

Im not telling you anything apart from its not all as clear cut as you want it to be. All the women want is your money nothing else and some are better in disguising the fact than others. Every single one of them would be rather doing something else than having sex with strange men all day everyday.

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Im not telling you anything apart from its not all as clear cut as you want it to be. All the women want is your money nothing else and some are better in disguising the fact than others. Every single one of them would be rather doing something else than having sex with strange men all day everyday.

Hilly Billy, it has been my occupation for 4 years and I do have plenty of friends in the industry that would disagree with your statement. We are evolving. Many of my friends have moved on from swinging, we have sex for pleasure and the fact we get paid for it is a bonus.

There are those that do it purely for the money, but even they will not display fear, because they don't feel that emotion and a woman who is pretending to enjoy something is still doing it of her own free will. A woman who is forced is not going to pretend. They may force back the tears, because they don't want to get beaten afterwards, but their body will be rigid and unresponsive. They will be going through the motions and not doing eye contact, because they are shutting themselves out from the experience.

A woman who is truly not willing can not hide that.

riclad

I Would like to see the gardai spending their time stopping crime,
burglarys, people getting mugged , cars getting robbed ,drug dealing etc
IF some bloke wants to pay a woman for sex ,its not the governments business as long as both persons are free and willing ,
eg its a woman bought over here by a gang and forced to have sex.
The quality of life and our tourism industry could be at risk, if theres more gardai retired ,and garda stations closed.

at This point asking the nuns for advice on sex workers is like asking
the taliban for advice on womens education ,
or asking a blind man to guide you across o,connell st in rush hour.

SO the gardai are going to be going around arresting sex workers and their clients .
We are a multicultural country,
most people in ireland are not actually practising catholics,
The time is passed when we should base our laws on religious doctrine.

OUR prisons are full, there,s no place to put joe bloggs,arrested
for going to a sex worker, unless we release a serious criminal to free up space.
There are more serious issues to be adressed,in the area of crime,
eg drug dealing,financial fraud ,
than two adults who wish to have sex.
ITS like drugs ,it goes on in every country,
IT would make more sense ,make brothels legal, in certain areas,
and get some tax revenue from it.Like they do in holland.
if Gardai spend time enforcing new laws ,they,ll have less time to deal with real
crimes,
eg burglarys etc crimes that effect the quality of life for ordinary people.

CK73

riclad wrote: »

I Would like to see the gardai spending their time stopping crime,
burglarys, people getting mugged , cars getting robbed ,drug dealing etc
IF some bloke wants to pay a woman for sex ,its not the governments business as long as both persons are free and willing ,
eg its a woman bought over here by a gang and forced to have sex.
The quality of life and our tourism industry could be at risk, if theres more gardai retired ,and garda stations closed.

at This point asking the nuns for advice on sex workers is like asking
the taliban for advice on womens education ,
or asking a blind man to guide you across o,connell st in rush hour.

SO the gardai are going to be going around arresting sex workers and their clients .
We are a multicultural country,
most people in ireland are not actually practising catholics,
The time is passed when we should base our laws on religious doctrine.

OUR prisons are full, there,s no place to put joe bloggs,arrested
for going to a sex worker, unless we release a serious criminal to free up space.
There are more serious issues to be adressed,in the area of crime,
eg drug dealing,financial fraud ,
than two adults who wish to have sex.
ITS like drugs ,it goes on in every country,
IT would make more sense ,make brothels legal, in certain areas,
and get some tax revenue from it.Like they do in holland.

I'm with you up to the brothels bit, I wouldn't do that, but I do agree with the rest of your post.

riclad

IF there s a new law that effects ,one group,eg publicans, taxi drivers, that group should be widely consulted, spoken to in person.
if i want to know whats going on in the computer industry,
i would not be talking to a priest or a nun, or a chemist,
ie speak to people who work daily in that industry and are experts at it.People who have wide knowledge of it.
IS this committee devoid of common sense?
OR they just see sex workers as criminals ,on the same level as a mugger or drug dealer.

aare

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Im not telling you anything apart from its not all as clear cut as you want it to be. All the women want is your money nothing else and some are better in disguising the fact than others. Every single one of them would be rather doing something else than having sex with strange men all day everyday.

The majority of people would rather be doing something else than at work. That is the most normal thing in the world. It doesn't mean that they are afraid or coerced. It just means that they are the type of person who believes in working to live rather than living to work (which is a very healthy mental attitude), and looks for self determination and fulfillment in life in other ways...like parenting, or studying, things that a sex workers will usually have a lot more time and resources to do than most people.

aare

riclad wrote: »

IF there s a new law that effects ,one group,eg publicans, taxi drivers, that group should be widely consulted, spoken to in person.
if i want to know whats going on in the computer industry,
i would not be talking to a priest or a nun, or a chemist,
ie speak to people who work daily in that industry and are experts at it.People who have wide knowledge of it.
IS this committee devoid of common sense?
OR they just see sex workers as criminals ,on the same level as a mugger or drug dealer.

I think it is, genuinely, more that a lot of them see sex workers in the same way as animals or children. The propaganda steadily put out by Ruhama, and affiliates, for more than 20 years is responsible for much of this. It is deliberate, because if the truth had been conceded that all sex workers are people who are just as capable of knowing their own options, making their own decisions, thinking and speaking for themselves as anyone else, as they SO VERY OBVIOUSLY ARE, and have always been...

http://sexwork.ie/2012/08/20/dolores-lynch-irelands-first-prostitute-activist/
http://sexwork.ie/2012/08/23/girls-on-the-street-the-need-for-a-welcome/

...then organisations like Ruhama would be seen for what they are and dismissed as superfluous rather than funded to do very little but usurp the voices of other adults and drown them in propaganda.

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Im not telling you anything apart from its not all as clear cut as you want it to be. All the women want is your money nothing else and some are better in disguising the fact than others. Every single one of them would be rather doing something else than having sex with strange men all day everyday.

Sorry I needed to come back to this point. What makes you think that a sex worker never clocks off? I know many sex workers who have families or boyfriends and have perfectly normal lives outside of work. There are also many that fit it in around their studies or other jobs. We are not all drones, living for one purpose. We do have lives!

A reporter in Ireland recently went back out the streets, that he had been on 20 years previously to see how things had changed. The first thing he noticed is that there were a lot less street workers around, the next thing he noticed was that 2 of the ladies he had met previously were still on the street and still working. The first one he thought looked healthy enough, but may have been a little drunk, so he exchanged a few words and moved on. The next one told me that since they last met, she had married and had children and that her husband had no idea how she made her money. She tended to go out late at night, so it didn't impact on looking after the children and she said on a good night, she could make in the region of 500e.

Even she as a street walker had a reasonable quality of life outside of work and was loved and had children. It is wrong for us to presume that any type of sex worker other than trafficked is not capable of having a fair to good quality of life.

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

Hilly Billy, it has been my occupation for 4 years and I do have plenty of friends in the industry that would disagree with your statement. We are evolving. Many of my friends have moved on from swinging, we have sex for pleasure and the fact we get paid for it is a bonus.

There are those that do it purely for the money, but even they will not display fear, because they don't feel that emotion and a woman who is pretending to enjoy something is still doing it of her own free will. A woman who is forced is not going to pretend. They may force back the tears, because they don't want to get beaten afterwards, but their body will be rigid and unresponsive. They will be going through the motions and not doing eye contact, because they are shutting themselves out from the experience.

A woman who is truly not willing can not hide that.

Thats just the line you use to fool yourself into thinking that you enjoy what you do.

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

Sorry I needed to come back to this point. What makes you think that a sex worker never clocks off? I know many sex workers who have families or boyfriends and have perfectly normal lives outside of work. There are also many that fit it in around their studies or other jobs. We are not all drones, living for one purpose. We do have lives!

Im sure that they do clock off or should i have dropped the L Many advertise that they are available 24hrs, many have set hours depending on their location.

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats just the line you use to fool yourself into thinking that you enjoy what you do.

lol could you be any more condescending? How dare you tell me what I am thinking or feeling!!! I have done numerous jobs in my life time and this is one of my favourites so far. The only part of it I don't like is the deception with my family.

I'll tell you what was much worse too. Being married to a man I didn't love and trying to keep things together for 8 years so my son would have a Father. That was a mistake.

When you are ready to apologies I may listen to your thoughts, but as far as I'm concerned your opinion no longer counts.

Hilly Bill

aare wrote: »

The majority of people would rather be doing something else than at work. That is the most normal thing in the world. It doesn't mean that they are afraid or coerced. It just means that they are the type of person who believes in working to live rather than living to work (which is a very healthy mental attitude), and looks for self determination and fulfillment in life in other ways...like parenting, or studying, things that a sex workers will usually have a lot more time and resources to do than most people.

There is a huge difference between driving a truck and having a stranger's flute in your mouth everyday.

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Im sure that they do clock off or should i have dropped the L Many advertise that they are available 24hrs, many have set hours depending on their location.

The ones that advertise 24 hours tend to be touring, so they are making the most of the time they are renting a room or hotel. Even then they would not be working around the clock, but be looking at hitting a target per day and once that target is hit, they would simply say they were fully booked or not answer the phone.

It is up to them when they answer the phone and at what time during those 24 hours they work. Don't assume it means they are working round the clock, or cock as you most eloquently put it.

Why would I say something that I don't mean if my life is so bad? Would I not be asking for help to get out of it? Would I not be using my degree in English to get a 'better' job? I do have options, but this is what I enjoy doing and it pays my bills, so why would I not be happy?

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

lol could you be any more condescending? How dare you tell me what I am thinking or feeling!!! I have done numerous jobs in my life time and this is one of my favourites so far. The only part of it I don't like is the deception with my family.

I'll tell you what was much worse too. Being married to a man I didn't love and trying to keep things together for 8 years so my son would have a Father. That was a mistake.

When you are ready to apologies I may listen to your thoughts, but as far as I'm concerned your opinion no longer counts.

Ye, of course it is.

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

The ones that advertise 24 hours tend to be touring, so they are making the most of the time they are renting a room or hotel. Even then they would not be working around the clock, but be looking at hitting a target per day and once that target is hit, they would simply say they were fully booked or not answer the phone.

It is up to them when they answer the phone and at what time during those 24 hours they work. Don't assume it means they are working round the clock, or cock as you most eloquently put it.

Why would I say something that I don't mean if my life is so bad? Would I not be asking for help to get out of it? Would I not be using my degree in English to get a 'better' job? I do have options, but this is what I enjoy doing and it pays my bills, so why would I not be happy?

Now i know that you havent a clue.

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Now i know that you havent a clue.

It's not physically possible to work round the clock.

Besides they do not represent all Sex Workers, so what is your point? There is a variety as with any job and the point here is that not all Sex Workers are forced or coerced and in fact the majority are not, so they should have a say in the legislation.

What makes you an authority on this by the way?

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ye, of course it is.

It's quite interesting to meet a real life misogynist. Please continue, I'm learning from you.

gcgirl

IceFjoem wrote: »

Prostitutes aren't exactly an authority on social policy making. Other than "I have sex for money" I can't imagine they'd have a highly valuable input tbf.

Thats a pretty stupid comment in fairness, Its a paid job, just like a plumber gets paid for their servives, its providing a servive like any other job

Minoxidil

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats just the line you use to fool yourself into thinking that you enjoy what you do.

My God, your closed minded is astonishing. You have set beliefs in your head which you will not change regardless of the evidence. That's nuts.

Minoxidil

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Ye, of course it is.

Muppet

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

It's not physically possible to work round the clock.

Besides they do not represent all Sex Workers, so what is your point? There is a variety as with any job and the point here is that not all Sex Workers are forced or coerced and in fact the majority are not, so they should have a say in the legislation.

What makes you an authority on this by the way?

Anyone that advertises 24hrs then you know to avoid, the same goes for the ones that doesnt allow reviews on dodgy websites that allow ads from pimps .
To be honest, anyone that uses these services needs their head examined.

Hilly Bill

Minoxidil wrote: »

My God, your closed minded is astonishing. You have set beliefs in your head which you will not change regardless of the evidence. That's nuts.

Closed mind? No. Whatever beliefs i have , why should i change them based on a few posts on here?

Sin City

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Anyone that advertises 24hrs then you know to avoid, the same goes for the ones that doesnt allow reviews on dodgy websites that allow ads from pimps .
To be honest, anyone that uses these services needs their head examined.

Sounds like you have been burnt before

Hilly Bill

CK73 wrote: »

It's quite interesting to meet a real life misogynist. Please continue, I'm learning from you.

What? how did you come to that conclusion?

Hilly Bill

Sin City wrote: »

Sounds like you have been burnt before

Nope. Its common sense.

Minoxidil

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Closed mind? No. Whatever beliefs i have , why should i change them based on a few posts on here?

How can you be so certain a prostitute couldn't possibly in her job?

Do you have psychic powers?

CK73

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What? how did you come to that conclusion?

Probably because you are treating me like a piece of **** with no respect. Isn't that how misogynistic people behave towards women?

Tell me something, if I don't enjoy my work at all, how come my body orgasms and gushes? Admittedly I don't gush with every client, but I mostly do orgasm. Now please bare in mind that I didn't have one orgasm with my ex and was 31 the first time, so it's not something that happened freely with me until after I experienced it and opened my mind to fully enjoying my sexual experiences.

I've also had several years of celibacy throughout my life and realised after the last 3 year stint that it was not for me and not something that enhanced my life, but added to the stresses I had at the time. Denial, is not always the best solution.

I might be able to fool myself, but I can't fool my body. Sex is a pleasurable experience and most people are capable of giving someone pleasure, as well as receiving it.