woman = beautiful + strong?

TheBellJar

Table Top Joe wrote: »

,i dont expect you to speak on behalf of half the planet either:)

And yet you still are!
You really need to stop generalising. You're fighting a losing battle here...

Table Top Joe

Gauge wrote: »

You can keep iterating this but the language you use says otherwise.

Manly arms
Masculine women.
Manly upper body.
Muscly and manly vs fit and toned. (FYI. Katie is very fit. And if we're taking "toned" to mean low body fat, she probably fits that category too).

Your personal preferences don't apply to all men and yet you keep positioning them as if you speak for all heterosexual men.

*Deep sigh*....i was referring to Katie,i think she has masculine,manly arms.....i do not regard all strong women as manly though,those words were used for Katie and Katie alone,it is possible to be super fit and not be manly obviously


People here clearly dont like it but for better or worse that kind of muscle is associated with men for most people and is naturally going to be off putting for men.....well,this one at least



I must go now i think ive done enough damage for the time being(and i wasnt even trying!)

Table Top Joe

TheBellJar wrote: »

And yet you still are!
You really need to stop generalising. You're fighting a losing battle here...

I know im infuriating arent i?:).....you should try argung with me in the flesh!



But i use generalisations because like cliches theres usually truth in them



Go on,give it a go!......ok i really must go now,going to the gym actually believe it or not,its been fun though....and btw fair play for the pic(not meant patronisingly)

The Pheasant

I'm gonna have to weigh in here because some people can't seem to fathom the idea that men do not (for the most part, there are exceptions to everything of course) find muscular women attractive. Then the usual reply seems to be "oh so you don't like women to be toned? You want flabby arms etc.?" - This isn't the case. There's a difference between muscle tone and muscle mass. Tone is just how little fat you have over your muscles and in no way affects how "strong" you are (if you look at power lifters in the olympics for example, they're not very toned considering they'd be among the strongest people in the world). Your muscle mass however i.e how much muscle you have, does have a direct corellation with strength. The reason the guys earlier on the thread were saying they didn't find Katie's arms attractive, has nothing to with how toned or defined they are. It's because they're large - Katie has a high level of muscle mass in her arms and guys don't find this particularly attractive. Now you may argue that they aren't that big and post pics of female bodybuilders with massive biceps or whatever, but the simple fact is that she does have large biceps for a woman and it's not considered an attractive trait in women. (and as I said earlier there are probably some men that find that attractive but they would be in the minority)

ashers22

I think the question should be, do you really care OP. If it makes you feel good and you find the right balance between your "masculinity" and "femininity" then that's all that really matters.

(and hey, men may not like it but I swear women, (at least many of them anyway:o) do!)

riveratom

The Pheasant wrote: »

I'm gonna have to weigh in here because some people can't seem to fathom the idea that men do not (for the most part, there are exceptions to everything of course) find muscular women attractive. Then the usual reply seems to be "oh so you don't like women to be toned? You want flabby arms etc.?" - This isn't the case. There's a difference between muscle tone and muscle mass. Tone is just how little fat you have over your muscles and in no way affects how "strong" you are (if you look at power lifters in the olympics for example, they're not very toned considering they'd be among the strongest people in the world). Your muscle mass however i.e how much muscle you have, does have a direct corellation with strength. The reason the guys earlier on the thread were saying they didn't find Katie's arms attractive, has nothing to with how toned or defined they are. It's because they're large - Katie has a high level of muscle mass in her arms and guys don't find this particularly attractive. Now you may argue that they aren't that big and post pics of female bodybuilders with massive biceps or whatever, but the simple fact is that she does have large biceps for a woman and it's not considered an attractive trait in women. (and as I said earlier there are probably some men that find that attractive but they would be in the minority)

Gotta give this a +1 as it makes the most sense out of all the posts in this thread so far. Katie does have unusually muscular arms for a girl BUT she is a boxer!! If you take a woman who is 'gym fit', or who plays tennis or swims or whatever, she will likely have 'toned' arms which means little fat - showing a little 'natural' muscle underneath.

That's not to say the muscle Katie has isn't natural - of course it is. It is unusual though, given the level she is operating at, and given the nature of her sport. As such, it's to a level that the (vast) majority of guys would not be comfortable.

The Pheasant

ashers22 wrote: »

I think the question should be, do you really care OP. If it makes you feel good and you find the right balance between your "masculinity" and "femininity" then that's all that really matters.

(and hey, men may not like it but I swear women, (at least many of them anyway:o) do!)

You're dead right, it shouldn't about who finds what attractive as it's always gonna boil down to subjectivity - the main thing should be that OP is proud of her own body regardless of what a bunch of randomers think

Scuba Ste

The Pheasant wrote: »

I'm gonna have to weigh in here because some people can't seem to fathom the idea that men do not (for the most part, there are exceptions to everything of course) find muscular women attractive. Then the usual reply seems to be "oh so you don't like women to be toned? You want flabby arms etc.?" - This isn't the case. There's a difference between muscle tone and muscle mass. Tone is just how little fat you have over your muscles and in no way affects how "strong" you are (if you look at power lifters in the olympics for example, they're not very toned considering they'd be among the strongest people in the world). Your muscle mass however i.e how much muscle you have, does have a direct corellation with strength. The reason the guys earlier on the thread were saying they didn't find Katie's arms attractive, has nothing to with how toned or defined they are. It's because they're large - Katie has a high level of muscle mass in her arms and guys don't find this particularly attractive. Now you may argue that they aren't that big and post pics of female bodybuilders with massive biceps or whatever, but the simple fact is that she does have large biceps for a woman and it's not considered an attractive trait in women. (and as I said earlier there are probably some men that find that attractive but they would be in the minority)

I'd have to disagree. Until her arms were pointed out I would not have thought she has manly, muscly or masculine arms. They are bigger than most women's but they're aren't too big. I think she looks great. I also wonder if the picture gives a skewed view of them. Here's a pic which looks like it's from the same event http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/c0.29.403.403/p403x403/602899_516855238349243_1705758709_n.jpg Not unusual looking at all and they are only arms, probably one of the last things most men look for in a woman. Most men I know think Katie is attractive tbh and I'd include myself among them. I would definitely be in the beautiful+strong= more beautiful camp.

Also, to be pedantic, there is no powerlifting in the Olympics. There is weightlifting and a lot of athletes, especially in the lighter weight categories (both men and women) would be quite lean or toned. Here's Julia as an example

I think she's pretty hot. She's also stronger than I am.

In the name of transparency I compete in the sport so I'm bit biased.

Jerrica

Table Top Joe wrote: »

It might be unfortunate and unfair etc.....but this as ive been saying is just how we men folk are(generally!!!)isnt it obvious we would like the things in women that are different to ourselves? softer,less hair that kind of thing:o

The thing is, the only opinion on attractiveness that you can speak about with any real certainty is your own It's quite irksome and unfair for one person to be making a generalised, sweeping statement about a whole gender.

If you like softer, hairless women, then good for you, but I know plenty of men who not only don't mind a strong, quite muscular woman but actively seek them out. See how that works?

The Pheasant

Jerrica wrote: »

The thing is, the only opinion on attractiveness that you can speak about with any real certainty is your own It's quite irksome and unfair for one person to be making a generalised, sweeping statement about a whole gender.

If you like softer, hairless women, then good for you, but I know plenty of men who not only don't mind a strong, quite muscular woman but actively seek them out. See how that works?

If men liked muscular women as much as everyone on this thread says, (everyone seems to "know men who like muscular women") then I think we'd see a lot muscle women glamour models etc.

April O Neill

The Pheasant wrote: »

I'm gonna have to weigh in here because some people can't seem to fathom the idea that men do not (for the most part, there are exceptions to everything of course) find muscular women attractive. Then the usual reply seems to be "oh so you don't like women to be toned? You want flabby arms etc.?" - This isn't the case. There's a difference between muscle tone and muscle mass. Tone is just how little fat you have over your muscles and in no way affects how "strong" you are (if you look at power lifters in the olympics for example, they're not very toned considering they'd be among the strongest people in the world). Your muscle mass however i.e how much muscle you have, does have a direct corellation with strength. The reason the guys earlier on the thread were saying they didn't find Katie's arms attractive, has nothing to with how toned or defined they are. It's because they're large - Katie has a high level of muscle mass in her arms and guys don't find this particularly attractive. Now you may argue that they aren't that big and post pics of female bodybuilders with massive biceps or whatever, but the simple fact is that she does have large biceps for a woman and it's not considered an attractive trait in women. (and as I said earlier there are probably some men that find that attractive but they would be in the minority)

This post makes lots of sense.

Table Top Joe

Jerrica wrote: »

The thing is, the only opinion on attractiveness that you can speak about with any real certainty is your own It's quite irksome and unfair for one person to be making a generalised, sweeping statement about a whole gender.

If you like softer, hairless women, then good for you, but I know plenty of men who not only don't mind a strong, quite muscular woman but actively seek them out. See how that works?

Ok,had i stated "most men like blondes..or tall women...or small women" or whatever i could understand the reaction,but to cause controversy for stating men like femininity in women??.....thats just incredible really,now granted i cant speak for most males or any male besides myself but surely this is obvious


If you really want an honest answer regarding how attractive muscles are on women maybe try the mens forum or somewhere else,you know,ask men

And let me stress,im referring to muscles like Katie Taylors,not the muscles of a gym fit,toned woman

Jerrica

Katie Taylor:



Google Image search of "fit, toned woman":







I'm really struggling to see the difference in physiques here

I don't disagree with your opinion, you're entitled to find whatever you like attractive, I just think that women who train hard get a really, really rough ride in the assumptions that are made about their physique and there's damn all they can do to change popular perception/ ignorance.

Table Top Joe

As far as my own taste goes i find Katie too "big" for me there tbh,does nothing at all for me,the others are slimmer i think,far less muscle on the second girls arms too(granted its not flexed),i find the other girls to be much more feminine tbh


Thing is Katie is a boxer and so naturally has a bigger upper body than the girls in the pics and girls who work out a lot in general


Now this is going down like a knackered lift here i know but a bigger upper body is a masculine trait and so of course not desirable by most guys


No ones knocking women who work out and all that but in Katies case,i,like other guys here have said think her upper body is big,its certainly bigger than most girls,i was in the gym just last night admiring(perving whatever)on some fit,toned women but none of them had the arms of Katie


I believe men and women are programmed to like certain things(im not talking about hair colour etc) regarding femininity in women,this really isnt an off the wall view despite some of the posts here,if you want honesty regarding mens views you should really ask men

I think the problem here is women arent able to look at the various bodies on display from the male pov(well,obviously)men will notice subtle differences in women,this is how were programmed,this isnt some crazy theory ive made up you know,its just common sense and if you really need to just do some googling


Not meant as smart ass as it might sound^^^

April O Neill

Jerrica wrote: »

Katie Taylor:

Google Image search of "fit, toned woman":


I'm really struggling to see the difference in physiques here

Really? I think the google image girls look more slender, and Katie's arms are far bigger than theirs.

Morag

Table Top Joe wrote: »

Ok,had i stated "most men like blondes..or tall women...or small women" or whatever i could understand the reaction,but to cause controversy for stating men like femininity in women??.....thats just incredible really,now granted i cant speak for most males or any male besides myself but surely this is obvious

I think the issue in how you are defining femininity and masculinity not everyone agrees with were you are drawing those lines.

Table Top Joe

Morag wrote: »

I think the issue in how you are defining femininity and masculinity not everyone agrees with were you are drawing those lines.

A bigger upper body is a masculine trait,im really not saying anything crazy here,if people want to think that has no bearing on a womens attractiveness then fair enough

Stheno

Table Top Joe wrote: »

Ok.....first off i wouldnt consider your arms manly,i see a big difference in yours and Katies,i personally think theyre very big(Katies...not yours)yours just look like you work out and look after yourself(which is something i like as ive said)


It might be unfortunate and unfair etc.....but this as ive been saying is just how we men folk are(generally!!!)isnt it obvious we would like the things in women that are different to ourselves? softer,less hair that kind of thing:o


Your last line is the same idea im getting at actually,GENERALLY!! most women i know dont like skinny guys,its just the reverse of what men want,they want someone bigger

I'm the same height as my OH, I'm also more muscular and while I don't have arms as big as Katies, I've massive shoulders as I swam in competitions for years, my biggest problems buying e.g. jackets is the shoulder fit a lot of the time. I'm also stronger to the extent that I can lift him up and he can't lift me despite me being a stone and a half lighter. One of his most lovely compliments is that I feel soft and womanly to him.

Haven't seen anything on here saying skinny guys are bad, most on here are into a decent lifestyle so an anorexic guy yes, but not otherwise.

TheBellJar wrote: »

Okay here's an example. I'm not in amazing condition, not super lean or super muscular; I'm a regular in the weights room but not uber dedicated etc. I'm also not a boxer. However going by what you're saying, in this photo my arms are too masculine to be attractive.

Your opinion doesn't concern me on a personal level so I'm not offended (don't worry! ), and this really isn't a personal attack, but I do think it's unfortunate that there are men who see women with any degree of muscle to be somewhat unfeminine. I say 'any degree of muscle' because Katie Taylors arms aren't huge in any regard and are nowhere near that of a body builder etc.

.

I agree

Table Top Joe wrote: »

A bigger upper body is a masculine trait,im really not saying anything crazy here,if people want to think that has no bearing on a womens attractiveness then fair enough

Bigger than what? As I said above, I've massive shoulders due to years of competitive swimming. I've also got very muscular arms. Then I've big boobs, and a small waist, but from the chest up, I probably look much bigger than I actually am compared to my overall frame due to the size of my shoulders.

ashers22

Table Top Joe wrote: »

A bigger upper body is a masculine trait,im really not saying anything crazy here,if people want to think that has no bearing on a womens attractiveness then fair enough

check out me guns bish. Swear I am female (I'd actually be offended if you didn't say I was manly though )

http://i.imgur.com/4eOKQIYl.jpg?3

I do have a lot of upper body strength but tbh I don't have a feminine physique like bewbs and a tiny waist to counter that so I am a lot more masculine (I think) in appearance than many women who do have those attributes and who work out. And I think they are more important as attributes of femininity than what size body she's got. (I just don't happen to possess them)


(fwiw, I embrace my masculinity and I don't need anyone to tell me I'm beautiful)

IrishAm

Meh.

Some women love a muscley guy. And vice versa.

Some women get freaked by an overly muscley guys. And vice versa.

Meh, ladies are into all sorts.

I was a skinny weiner as a teen, albeit witha six pack, and I had as much female attention as I do now.

I think people go for people they find cute, humourous and good good company.

GalwayGuy2

Hmm, would you sat Katie Taylor has large, I'm trying to think of a nicer word than blocky, muscles or slender muscles?

I've noticed the pictures in this thread have rather toned, slender muscles rather than large muscles, and I wonder if they're representative of her body type?

I don't particularly find her attractive or unattractive tbh, but I'm not particularly attracted to boxers in general.

ashers222

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Hmm, would you sat Katie Taylor has large, I'm trying to think of a nicer word than blocky, muscles or slender muscles?

I've noticed the pictures in this thread have rather toned, slender muscles rather than large muscles, and I wonder if they're representative of her body type?

I don't particularly find her attractive or unattractive tbh, but I'm not particularly attracted to boxers in general.

Katie Taylor is an Olympic athlete, she's been training since she was a kid, her physique has been developing over a longer period of time. I'd find it unusual for anyone to develop that kind of physique unless they were putting in at least 10 hours of training a week over many many years. Her body has developed that way. The girls in the pics have different level of fitness, it's more akin to body sculpting and toning (reducing body fat and increasing definition) then developing muscle mass as a direct result of a life long commitment to a particular sporting field.

Galwayguy35

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

To those who say that 'strong' women can't be attractive.

What do you think of these two?

The one on the left is the nicer of the two, but both have nice toned bodies.

Personally I would not be attracted to the women that enter bodybuilding competitions and are all muscle but these two are not like that.

ashers222

I'm not attracted to their fake boobage though

--Kaiser--

Muscular women *in general* are not attractive to most men (chick on the right in the above photo - veiny man arms, horrid tbh) the same way a curvy man wouldn't be attractive to most women. You might not think it's not that simple but it really is. Most of the people who seem to be disagreeing with this are women, who in my experience aren't always the best judge of what is attractive in their sex (for example, studies show that woman want to have a waif like body akin to Gwyneth Paltrow's, while men want women who have curvy figures a la Salma Hayek).

Of course, this again boils down to what one considers muscular, as opposed to toned and shapely

The Pheasant

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Muscular women *in general* are not attractive to most men (chick on the right in the above photo - veiny man arms, horrid tbh) the same way a curvy man wouldn't be attractive to most women. You might not think it's not that simple but it really is. Most of the people who seem to be disagreeing with this are women, who in my experience women aren't always the best judge of what is attractive in their sex (for example, studies show that woman want to have a waif like body akin to Gwyneth Paltrow's, while men want women who have curvy figures a la Salma Hayek).

Of course, this again boils down to what one considers muscular, as opposed to toned and shapely

Thank you! Men keep reiterating the fact that they don't typically find muscular women attractive and yet they just can't seem to realise that only a small percentage of men are into that...

Table Top Joe

@ Stheno......not being a smart ass but ive gone over this subject enough times at this stage,the example used in this case is Katie Taylor,i,along with(from what i gather)all the guys on this thread consider her arms and upper body to be too masculine for us(actually i think one guy may have liked it but im not sure)


@Ashers.....i thought you had been banished! good to see you back,something endearing about you(you remind me of an Australian girl i was friends with few years ago.....but anyway,i digress)

Now,on your guns.....very impressive(more impressive than mine:()it wouldnt be for me though......but i get the feeling your not too pushed about that:)



Theres some serious blinkers on in this thread in fairness,to be honest i dont think another 100 men coming in saying they find Katie Taylor or any other female with a similar build too masculine(in her upper body at least)would make a blind bit of difference....were all brainwashed,insecure,intimidated etc....:rolleyes: pretty much every male so far,if not every one of us has said "no...its not attractive"


This is the most obvious thing ive ever seen people disagree with in my life

Scuba Ste

Table Top Joe wrote: »

Theres some serious blinkers on in this thread in fairness,to be honest i dont think another 100 men coming in saying they find Katie Taylor or any other female with a similar build too masculine(in her upper body at least)would make a blind bit of difference....were all brainwashed,insecure,intimidated etc....:rolleyes: pretty much every male so far,if not every one of us has said "no...its not attractive"


This is the most obvious thing ive ever seen people disagree with in my life

Not every man agrees.

The problem isn't that you don't find Katie Taylor attractive, that's your taste and fair enough. The problem is you keep calling her masculine. You think she's masculine, again fair enough, that's your opinion. I'm a man, I don't think she is, I think she's very feminine. She is in very good shape no doubt but I wouldn't call that masculine at all. Most lads I know think she's hot so I still can't see how your argument about what most men think is true. Granted some of those lads would train quite seriously themselves.

I'm not saying men generally like physically masculine women, I'd agree they don't. I'm saying I don't think Katie looks masculine. Pro female bodybuilders are masculine, some olympic throwers are masculine, even some sprinters can be but usually these women have more testosterone than I do.

For what it's worth I also think the girl in the right of the above pic looks better so I accept I'm probably in the minority but I think it's a significant minority.

Table Top Joe

Scuba Ste wrote: »

I accept I'm probably in the minority but I think it's a significant minority.

So you think the majority would disagree with you?......

The Pheasant

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Not every man agrees.

The problem isn't that you don't find Katie Taylor attractive, that's your taste and fair enough. The problem is you keep calling her masculine. You think she's masculine, again fair enough, that's your opinion. I'm a man, I don't think she is, I think she's very feminine. She is in very good shape no doubt but I wouldn't call that masculine at all. Most lads I know think she's hot so I still can't see how your argument about what most men think is true. Granted some of those lads would train quite seriously themselves.

I'm not saying men generally like physically masculine women, I'd agree they don't. I'm saying I don't think Katie looks masculine. Pro female bodybuilders are masculine, some olympic throwers are masculine, even some sprinters can be but usually these women have more testosterone than I do.

For what it's worth I also think the girl in the right of the above pic looks better so I accept I'm probably in the minority but I think it's a significant minority.

Pretty sure table top Joe already referenced you as being the only guy on this thread to hold those views...anyway judging by the nature of your previous posts you seem to run in weightlifting circles so it's not exactly surprising the people you associate with find muscular women attractive