woman = beautiful + strong?

loalae

Stheno wrote: »

For me women being strong is not about physical ability, it's about having mental strength and acuity and challenging (albeit in a quiet way) stereotypes/perceived norms and progressing through them.



I don't understand why a woman would have to challenge something in a quiet way. What do you mean by this? Would she be less womanly or more weak if she challenged stereotypes/perceived norms in a more aggressive or loud way?

Madam_X

Medu wrote: »

I can't believe it's 2013 and people still don't know how to use Google!!

Well you can't, as far as I know, do a google search with images, only with words.

riveratom

Madam_X wrote: »

Well you can't, as far a I know, do a google search with images, only with words.

You can using Google image search, just use the little camera icon in the search bar.

Strong is the new sexy, and there is nothing sexier than a woman who works out with weights and / or bodyweight exercises, push-ups, squats, etc.

My ideal woman is a Crossfit girl (image search will get the picture across )

confusticated

I think I'd agree that it could be down to Katie Taylor being a boxer - I never heard similar comments about Derval O'Rourke for example, who I think is attractive too.

riveratom

lolo62 wrote: »

When Katie Taylor won her medal during the summer I found it interesting (and infuriating) the amount of people who felt the need to point out 'and she's pretty like' as if the two can't go together; being physically strong and attractive

I'm doing a lot of energy work at the moment where it's all about aggression and the 'masculine' part of me
As I do and my body becomes stronger and sturdier I am finding it hard to tolerate anything like the above that suggests women being strong and/or aggressive is unattractive or wrong in any way

anyone else have thoughts on this?

I actually have a different take on this though. The way I read it is that people were saying 'isn't she an amazing athlete, AND she's very attractive'? Almost like it was an additional observation, on top of admiring her athletic prowess.

I think you might be finding offense where none actually exists

lolo62

riveratom wrote: »

I actually have a different take on this though. The way I read it is that people were saying 'isn't she an amazing athlete, AND she's very attractive'? Almost like it was an additional observation, on top of admiring her athletic prowess.

I think you might be finding offense where none actually exists

As I told the poster above that wasn't what was being implied...things always translate differently in text form
you would have to have been there to be able to make the judgement you're making

You might be coming from a good place but it comes across extremely simplistic and patronising
I did, believe it or not, think about it in some depth before starting a discussion, and, having been there, know in what way the comments were being made

0ph0rce0

For me women and muscles and six packs is yuk. Thats just me though

All the muscly ones are too thin, Gotta have some meat on you.

lolo62

ashers22 wrote: »

I know a lot of straight women who do, I don't mean in a sexual way. Maybe it's something they wish to emulate in themselves. The reason why maybe I brought orientation into it is because I get to be around women who can be open about what they find attractive in other women so it's not unfamiliar territory to me.


I don't really associate it with masculinity tbh, maybe I just like things that go against the grain a bit. Gender bending a bit maybe, like I find a woman in a power suit extremely hot..if that makes sense.
When I was young I used to compete in my field and was very strong, I hated my muscles as a teenage girl and was very embarrassed when going out so I wouldn't wear short sleeves in case someone commented on them. As I grew older I realised the comments were usually made by men who were probably threatened by my strength and I stopped caring whether they found me attractive, as it happened I discovered women found it very attractive indeed...

I do actually find it sexually attractive..

I think you've got a good point there about wanting to emulate also though
I've done a lot of study on the psychology of this and people do actually become attracted to qualities they want themselves (or ones they have repressed)
Men who aren't in their power are intimidated by women who are as well as women who 'look' powerful
Same the other way around

I'm working on all this really hard at the moment and am finding that a person in their power be they man or woman has a healthy access to their masculine and feminine sides

It's a really interesting topic though, trying to figure out how much of a role gender plays in getting the balance right!

jaffacakesyum

riveratom wrote: »

I actually have a different take on this though. The way I read it is that people were saying 'isn't she an amazing athlete, AND she's very attractive'? Almost like it was an additional observation, on top of admiring her athletic prowess.

I think you might be finding offense where none actually exists

I wasn't there for the OP's situation so I don't know the intent or way in which the comment was said. However, you could be absolutely right that when people comment "isn't she an amazing athlete AND she's very attractive", they are simply adding an additional observation, a compliment.

However, being very much into sport myself, discussing it with mates, reading the media etc. I've never seen someone say, with shock, that a male athlete is good looking too. Like "wow, he's such a powerful athlete AND he's good looking too" as if the two could never co-exist. Why? Because power, strength and fitness, is not associated with unattractiveness in men. In fact, quite the opposite. While the same qualities for women are associated with unattractivess for some men. Sure just read the comments on this thread with men saying they don't find physically strong women attractive (which is well within their right, btw, I'm not complaining).

I don't find the issue particularly offensive by the way. I think it's a shame, but perfectly understandable given societial 'roles' of the two different genders. It's just an interesting topic though

snausages

I don't think that strong women are unattractive, but I would be intimidated by any woman who was stronger/taller than me. For me at least I think it's more of an insecurity issue than anything else.

Arawn

To be fair when ypu think boxers you don't think good looking people as they spend their career getting punched in the face. So good loking boxers would be rare and I mean that male and female. Great bodies but rarely faces to write home about.

Ella

Arawn wrote: »

To be fair when ypu think boxers you don't think good looking people as they spend their career getting punched in the face. So good loking boxers would be rare and I mean that male and female. Great bodies but rarely faces to write home about.

:eek: What is wrong with you? Andy Lee and "pretty boy" Mayweather are tasty!

Arawn

Ella wrote: »

:eek: What is wrong with you? Andy Lee and "pretty boy" Mayweather are tasty!

You mean pretty boy who's made his whole career on not getting hit??

Ella

Arawn wrote: »

You mean pretty boy who's made his whole career on not getting hit??

Well it is his job not to get hit tbf :P

Gongoozler

And Tommy Bowe...?

riveratom

lolo62 wrote: »

As I told the poster above that wasn't what was being implied...things always translate differently in text form
you would have to have been there to be able to make the judgement you're making

You might be coming from a good place but it comes across extremely simplistic and patronising
I did, believe it or not, think about it in some depth before starting a discussion, and, having been there, know in what way the comments were being made

If my comments are patronising that's your take on it I'm afraid, I'm pretty certain no-one else on thread would have taken them up that way. That wasn't the intention and as you say yourself things translate differently in text form.

I would have had to have been there - you were talking about 'an amount of people' - how many people are we talking about here then?

I would stand by my comment that I feel you are taking this too seriously. Katie is an amazing athlete and I have myself noted that she is very good-looking as well. I have never once thought 'oh wow look at her, how can she be attractive AND athletic/strong', in the way you are describing.

riveratom

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

However, being very much into sport myself, discussing it with mates, reading the media etc. I've never seen someone say, with shock, that a male athlete is good looking too. Like "wow, he's such a powerful athlete AND he's good looking too" as if the two could never co-exist. Why? Because power, strength and fitness, is not associated with unattractiveness in men. In fact, quite the opposite. While the same qualities for women are associated with unattractivess for some men. Sure just read the comments on this thread with men saying they don't find physically strong women attractive (which is well within their right, btw, I'm not complaining).

I don't find the issue particularly offensive by the way. I think it's a shame, but perfectly understandable given societial 'roles' of the two different genders. It's just an interesting topic though

Well again, I really do think for most people it is just an additional observation, so I'm glad you think it might be the case too

I don't think people are 'shocked' that a female athlete could also be good-looking. I think it really is more just that people are remarking 'wow she is all these amazing things and on top of all that she's attractive too' - sort of like the icing on the cake, if you will.

Also, as mentioned earlier, boxers aren't generally known for their amazing good looks! Plus, are you seriously saying that women don't look at a male athlete and gasp at how 'hot' he is, etc?!

B0jangles

riveratom wrote: »

If my comments are patronising that's your take on it I'm afraid, I'm pretty certain no-one else on thread would have taken them up that way.

To be honest, I thought you came off a bit patronising too.

KamiKazeKitten

B0jangles wrote: »

To be honest, I thought you came off a bit patronising too.

And on the flip side of that, I didn't think he sounded patronising at all.
Things don't translate well on the internet I guess.

jaffacakesyum

riveratom wrote: »

Well again, I really do think for most people it is just an additional observation, so I'm glad you think it might be the case too

I don't think people are 'shocked' that a female athlete could also be good-looking. I think it really is more just that people are remarking 'wow she is all these amazing things and on top of all that she's attractive too' - sort of like the icing on the cake, if you will.

Also, as mentioned earlier, boxers aren't generally known for their amazing good looks! Plus, are you seriously saying that women don't look at a male athlete and gasp at how 'hot' he is, etc?!

Well, I think it's pretty much 50-50. It's just as likely for a comment like this to be made in an observational complimentary way, as it is to be made in a shocked condescending way (for want of a better description!) so either of us could be right to be fair!

To be honest, maybe it's because I don't really comment on athletes or celebrities 'bad looks' - I only seem to comment on someones good looks when I fancy them :pac: but I haven't heard of this "boxers are known for their bad looks" thing...it sure makes sense seeing as they get their faces punched out of it!! But to be honest I can think of several good looking boxers and the rest seem average/just below average to me!

Certainly women comment on how hot David Beckham is or any rugby player so it seems!! But my point is you'd never hear a woman say "David Beckham is such a skilled footballer, I can't believe he's so hot too!!" or "Tommy Bowe is really strong, AND he's good looking too?!!?" in a shocked way. Again, perhaps I am just thinking of specific phrases with a specific tone and specific intent, using the OP's example.

jaffacakesyum

KamiKazeKitten wrote: »

And on the flip side of that, I didn't think he sounded patronising at all.
Things don't translate well on the internet I guess.

I think his mistake was adding in the infamous smiley. That's always a sure-fire way to slip into the cheeky/patronising side of things :pac::pac:

riveratom

B0jangles wrote: »

To be honest, I thought you came off a bit patronising too.

Why would that be?

riveratom

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

Well, I think it's pretty much 50-50. It's just as likely for a comment like this to be made in an observational complimentary way, as it is to be made in a shocked condescending way (for want of a better description!) so either of us could be right to be fair!

To be honest, maybe it's because I don't really comment on athletes or celebrities 'bad looks' - I only seem to comment on someones good looks when I fancy them :pac: but I haven't heard of this "boxers are known for their bad looks" thing...it sure makes sense seeing as they get their faces punched out of it!! But to be honest I can think of several good looking boxers and the rest seem average/just below average to me!

Certainly women comment on how hot David Beckham is or any rugby player so it seems!! But my point is you'd never hear a woman say "David Beckham is such a skilled footballer, I can't believe he's so hot too!!" or "Tommy Bowe is really strong, AND he's good looking too?!!?" in a shocked way. Again, perhaps I am just thinking of specific phrases with a specific tone and specific intent, using the OP's example.

I don't think boxers are bad looking either, I think there are a lot of good-looking boxers out there, sure just look at Floyd Mayweather or Oscar De La Hoya, etc. I said they aren't known for their 'amazing looks', although others might have phrased it differently.

Perhaps it's down to the fact that there are far fewer famous sportswomen than sportsmen, and so this all comes up simply because there are going to be far fewer notably good-looking to notice in the first place?!

That might not be the most PC-sounding, but that doesn't make it any less true.

B0jangles

riveratom wrote: »

Why would that be?

I suppose I'm viewing it through the lense of noticing remarks made about other female atheletes.

I remember the jokes that were made about Sonia O'Sullivan and her percieved lack of attractiveness, of remarks I've heard made in the last day or two about Serena Williams, about how she's not really a woman at all (because she's too tall and muscular).

Ask yourself this; if Katie Taylor had gotten her medal in a more stereotypically feminine activity, like gymnastics, do you think anyone would be making special comments on her attractiveness, or would that just be assumed?

Edit: Look at this bollocks for example:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/tomboy-taylor-still-a-winner-as-catwalk-katie-26885453.html

riveratom

B0jangles wrote: »

I suppose I'm viewing it through the lense of noticing remarks made about other female atheletes.

I remember the jokes that were made about Sonia O'Sullivan and her percieved lack of attractiveness, of remarks I've heard made in the last day or two about Serena Williams, about how she's not really a woman at all (because she's too tall and muscular).

Ask yourself this; if Katie Taylor had gotten her medal in a more stereotypically feminine activity, like gymnastics, do you think anyone would be making special comments on her attractiveness, or would that just be assumed?

Edit: Look at this bollocks for example:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/tomboy-taylor-still-a-winner-as-catwalk-katie-26885453.html

Wow that article is something....and that's written by a fellow woman!! 'Katie Taylor scrubs up well' - she's at risk there writing that!

Yeah no it's a good point you make - women do tend to get immediately judged when it comes to sport, probably by both men and women. 'Anna Kournikova is hot, Serena is not', etc. Whereas with men, they are probably more taken at face value. I see where you're coming from there alright.

KamiKazeKitten

In sports like rhythmic gymnastics/beach volleyball/ etc you do have some people watching it purely to gawp at the women....boxing wouldn't really be seen as a 'girly' sport so maybe that's where some of the surprise that Katie Taylor is pretty comes from?
People would be used to seeing pretty girls in short shorts in the sports I mentioned but boxing isn't like that, some boxers do look a bit battered.

I don't think it's meant in a harmful way though.

Thinking aloud here so I'm not sure how coherent this is, ah well.

Morag

B0jangles

I think part of the problem is that just because something isn't meant to be harmful, it still is.

Like you hear lots of women talking about going to the gym to get fit but being afraid that if they lift weights they're going to get all "muscular and gross", which is

A. not going to happen unless they work incredibly hard and/or take a lot of steroids
and
B. Sad that they feel that getting visibly muscular is gross just because they are women.

Also Women's Beach Volleyball's inclusion as an Olympic sport was done largely because of the women-ogling opportunities, up until very recently, the competitors were required to wear bikini bottoms; they are now allowed to wear shorts as longs as they stop more than 3 cm above the knee.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/comment/laurie-penny-at-the-beach-volleyball-do-you-really-need-to-ask-why-im-here-7986148.html

I suppose what I am trying to say is that it seem like it is amost primary requirement for women atheletes to look pretty and everything else is just an extra. Just look at Anna Kournikova:

- from wikipedia: "Her appearance and celebrity status made her one of the best known tennis stars worldwide, despite her never winning a WTA singles title"

Would that happen to a (comparatively) mediocre professional male athelete?

the_syco

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

To those who say that 'strong' women can't be attractive.

What do you think of these two?

They're fit and probably strong, but not "muscly". I'd say when most men think of the word strong, they think muscles.

When someone thinks of "muscular women", they're probably thinking of this.

Medu wrote: »

why is that if people don't view physically strong, aggressive women as attractive?

Perhaps it's her ass, tits, or face that people prefer, rather than muscle? Katie Taylor is a good looking woman. If you took away the muscle, she'd still be good looking; to those saying that strong women = attractive, if said women were not strong, would they still be attractive?

lolo62 wrote: »

It's a really interesting topic though, trying to figure out how much of a role gender plays in getting the balance right!

Also check what we're told to find beautiful. A lot of the black guys that I know find the big women beautiful, but a lot of the men I know find the skinny (to a point) women beautiful. A lot of this is what we've been raised to see, via advertisement, subtle hints, historical stereotypes at a young age, etc.

Fukuyama

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

To those who say that 'strong' women can't be attractive.

What do you think of these two?

The one on the left doesn't look in any way muscular. She has a toned stomach....

The one on the right is clearly a UFC fighter or something. She's pretty but I don't find her attractive.

I don't think a woman with huge biceps and wide set shoulders to be attractive. But that's just me.

Also, so what if people said Katy Taylor was pretty?? What's the big deal?

Were we not all proud of her when she said she'd pull out of the olympics if they introduced 'skirts' for female boxers?

I think as a nation we were quite proud of her. Her audience would be mostly male, so it obvious her looks will come into question. Just as Ronaldo's looks are brought into question.

What's the issue?