Sexism you deal with in everyday life? ***Mod Note in first post. Please read***

eviltwin

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

This week alone, in 1st class in the school that I teach, I've been told "girls can't play basketball!", asked "are girls actually allowed to drive?" have had the boys refuse to watch Tangled because it's a "girl's film" and refuse to colour with pink crayons. *sigh*

Where are kids that age learning this stuff from :eek:

Das Kitty

eviltwin wrote: »

Where are kids that age learning this stuff from :eek:

It beats me, you know. I have friends who would be incredibly equality minded, but somehow their four year old daughter has a very narrow view about the roles of girls and boys. She gave out to my son for wanting to play with his own doll and kitchen last week, even though her dad does all the childcare and cooking in her house. It's really weird! :pac:

I still feel happy when my son chooses something pink in a shop or to play with barbies. But I can see it sneaking in. I'm only allowed play with female action figures when we're playing together or he throws a fit.


I was talking to my colleagues just there about what happened the last day with the guy explaining to me about context when I decide something is sexist or not. One of them told me a peach of a story. That same guy was in training with her about how to hire people and how not to discriminate. This guy piped up to say that people needed to "get real". That if you were faced with two candidates equal in every other way apart from their gender that you would "of course go for the man. It's a no brainer." I think it speaks volumes that this guy had no females reporting into him out of 20 people!

Scarinae

cealabeala wrote: »

The examples of a woman who's colleague ended a professional email with a comment about her attractiveness, and the woman who had to fend off unwanted attention from men at work while they claimed she was "asking for it" by being attractive, are examples of sexism.

I don't want to be flirted with by the men I work with. It's not acceptable to me to flirt with someone you've just met or don't know very well in the work place. It makes me extremely uncomfortable and therefore adds unnecessary stress to my day. You should be professional..

Yeah those were my posts, and I agree – I don’t want to be flirted with by people I work with, or people I deal with in the course of my work. I’m not there for people to have sex with, I’m there to do my job.

Scarinae wrote: »

he’d received the copy of the magazine I’d sent him and added “I didn’t realise you were so good looking ”, or much more blatant such as the editor of a rival magazine who invited me to come home with him one night even though he knows full well I have a boyfriend.

Gotham wrote: »

Is that sexism? As discussed before, the same thing could transgress with homosexual men.

Just because something could happen with hypothetical homosexual men doesn’t mean it isn’t inappropriate and disrespectful. Just because someone thinks “Hmmm, she is good looking” it doesn’t mean they have to say it to them – it just isn’t professional.

Scarinae wrote: »

He can't see why we don’t use being female to our advantage, to get better stories from people and negotiate better rates with the freelancers.

Gotham wrote: »

Sexist or oppertunistic? Some of the more "respected" business men are basically con artists, they expect you to be one too - that is how you gain respect with these people, they live in a bubble.

My editor and I want to be taken seriously as professionals, and I don’t think that is too much to ask. Going to dinner with someone who clearly has a sexual interest in you, and leading them on with signals that you are interested just so you can get them to do work for less money – this is most definitely not professional and I highly doubt this would be a way to ‘gain respect’, as you put it. We’re also not that desperate for editorial.

Scarinae wrote: »

She is a very pretty girl and takes care of herself

Gotham wrote: »

You stick a good looking x in a room of y and you expect not to get stared at? Not sure this is sexism either, I would imagine she just stuck out like a sore thumb, a pretty thumb.

She wasn’t just being stared at, she was getting inappropriate remarks. Just because she’s pretty it doesn’t mean she should have to put up with leching when she’s trying to do her job. I suppose if she doesn’t like it, maybe she should stop going to the gym, put on weight and wear ugly unflattering clothes so she won’t stick out ‘like a pretty thumb’ anymore :rolleyes:

Vojera

I feel pretty lucky that a lot of this stuff has never happened to me. The one instance I can think of where I thought "he'd never say that to a man" is this:
My hobby is guinea pigs. Not the most common pastime, but I love them and they've gone from being just a pet to being a big part of my life. I run a guinea pig forum, I've contributed to piggy-related publications, and I've made a lot of friends irl and online through having them. I had the opportunity to talk to a well-known radio presenter about my hobby and, paraphrasing, what he essentially said was "Ah, sure you're a girl of a certain age [I was 26]. Are you not just using them as a sort of baby-substitute and once you have kids you'll lose interest in them?"

Maybe it's just because they're small animals, but I can't imagine him saying to a guy "Ah sure, you'll have no interest in tinkering about with motorbikes once you become a father".

clairefontaine

Vojera wrote: »

I feel pretty lucky that a lot of this stuff has never happened to me. The one instance I can think of where I thought "he'd never say that to a man" is this:
My hobby is guinea pigs. Not the most common pastime, but I love them and they've gone from being just a pet to being a big part of my life. I run a guinea pig forum, I've contributed to piggy-related publications, and I've made a lot of friends irl and online through having them. I had the opportunity to talk to a well-known radio presenter about my hobby and, paraphrasing, what he essentially said was "Ah, sure you're a girl of a certain age [I was 26]. Are you not just using them as a sort of baby-substitute and once you have kids you'll lose interest in them?"

Maybe it's just because they're small animals, but I can't imagine him saying to a guy "Ah sure, you'll have no interest in tinkering about with motorbikes once you become a father".

Ah but if a man had a bunch of cute fluffy animals they'd probably call him a fag.

Das Kitty

Vojera wrote: »

I feel pretty lucky that a lot of this stuff has never happened to me. The one instance I can think of where I thought "he'd never say that to a man" is this:
My hobby is guinea pigs. Not the most common pastime, but I love them and they've gone from being just a pet to being a big part of my life. I run a guinea pig forum, I've contributed to piggy-related publications, and I've made a lot of friends irl and online through having them. I had the opportunity to talk to a well-known radio presenter about my hobby and, paraphrasing, what he essentially said was "Ah, sure you're a girl of a certain age [I was 26]. Are you not just using them as a sort of baby-substitute and once you have kids you'll lose interest in them?"

Maybe it's just because they're small animals, but I can't imagine him saying to a guy "Ah sure, you'll have no interest in tinkering about with motorbikes once you become a father".

I was just thinking, bet I know who that was. But upon further thought, it could be up to 6 I can name off the top of my head. That's scary. I can only think of one male radio presenter who would never say that.

Morag

eviltwin wrote: »

Where are kids that age learning this stuff from :eek:

It's in everything, they get it from media and other people and other kids and they pick up on it, honestly I've found it's something which you have to be aware of and work to combat actively and teach them to question assumptions.

ronjo

I have a 2 year old daughter and my wifes friend has a 2 year old son.
They were talking some photos to put on facebook and my wifes friend didnt want her to take a picture of her son on my daughters little bike because it was pink and her husband wouldnt like it !
This was about a year ago when the kids were 15months old max.

what chance has that little boy of not growing up sexist?

Roam

ronjo wrote: »

what chance has that little boy of not growing up sexist?

Plus, your daughter witnessed an example of the kind of conditioning that stems from the view that men and women oppose each other, males being the polar opposite to their female counterparts, the former being superior to the latter to the extent that being male requires a man to be anything other than female. What does that say to her about her identity?

A woman mimicking anything "masculine" would not receive the same negative response that the little boy's mother revealed. A boy acting in any way "feminine" is highly frowned upon because all things "feminine" are considered inferior.

Roam

Roam wrote: »

A woman mimicking anything "masculine" would not receive the same negative response that the little boy's mother revealed. A boy acting in any way "feminine" is highly frowned upon because all things "feminine" are considered inferior.

That's a good point. Even with women, you'd often hear "oh I'm not girly", while a man would never feel the need to say "oh I'm not manly". To be manly evokes an image of being a man that a lot of men would be proud of, whereas the word "girly" doesn't come across as simply being a girl, but rather has negative connotations such as vanity, immaturity or weakness. As for the word "womanly", it would rarely come up in conversation, possibly because the attributes associated with women are either considered "girly" as though you're a child, or "motherly" as though the focus at that point in your role is raising children. I'm reaching a bit here, possibly taking a trend in language to mean more than it does, but I've been described jokingly as manly before, and admittedly found it flattering, as it was meant in a "you're capable and practical" sort of way. In accepting the compliment, I never considered that I was accepting the implication that is was unwomanly of me to be capable in practical skills.

MurdyWurdy

I find sexism from other women much more intolerable than from men, especially about other women being pregnant etc.

My mum is a teacher and recently heard one of her 5th girls complaining about how women teachers just wanted to get pregnant so they could sit around and do nothing when they should be working to teach her. My mum was saying that this has most definitely come from the woman's mother, as the child was not the kind of girl to come out with this on her own. My mind boggles at that, 17 years ago this woman had a child yet she is standing in judgement over someone else choosing to do that and taking maternity leave, and tarring all women with that brush? Sad that a 17 year old girl was being taught to think like that instead of having a good female role model.

You find it a lot in younger men as well, (I see it on boards all the time) having issues with thinking all women are buggering off on maternity leave to live a life of luxury. They all have mothers who went through this so I would expect them to have a bit more understanding. I find men in the office with families of their own are fantastic to pregnant women and so supportive but younger men who haven't got families yet just have a lack of understanding. It is understandable but it doesn't stop me wishing it wasn't the case.

IvyTheTerrible

MurdyWurdy wrote: »

I find sexism from other women much more intolerable than from men, especially about other women being pregnant etc.

My mum is a teacher and recently heard one of her 5th girls complaining about how women teachers just wanted to get pregnant so they could sit around and do nothing when they should be working to teach her. My mum was saying that this has most definitely come from the woman's mother, as the child was not the kind of girl to come out with this on her own. My mind boggles at that, 17 years ago this woman had a child yet she is standing in judgement over someone else choosing to do that and taking maternity leave, and tarring all women with that brush? Sad that a 17 year old girl was being taught to think like that instead of having a good female role model.

You find it a lot in younger men as well, (I see it on boards all the time) having issues with thinking all women are buggering off on maternity leave to live a life of luxury. They all have mothers who went through this so I would expect them to have a bit more understanding. I find men in the office with families of their own are fantastic to pregnant women and so supportive but younger men who haven't got families yet just have a lack of understanding. It is understandable but it doesn't stop me wishing it wasn't the case.

Some one in my family (a women) has told me that lots of women in her workplace are just having babies to take advantage of the maternity leave. Tried to convince her otherwise but to no avail.

Lola18

When it comes to sport there's a huge amount of sexism, I've always played and watched sport! I always here how hurling is a boys/mans sport...it's too rough for me apparently, but in actual fact some of us women would give the men a good going over!!
I'm qualified to coach soccer and all but so many male teams wouldn't want to be seen with a female coach! Even the younger teams of 9/10 year olds have the impression that sport is a mans thing!

Das Kitty

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Some one in my family (a women) has told me that lots of women in her workplace are just having babies to take advantage of the maternity leave. Tried to convince her otherwise but to no avail.

Trials of pregnancy, agony of labour and responsiblity for another person for 18 years in exchange for 6 months off work. Sounds like a great deal!

astrofool

MurdyWurdy wrote: »

I find sexism from other women much more intolerable than from men, especially about other women being pregnant etc.

My mum is a teacher and recently heard one of her 5th girls complaining about how women teachers just wanted to get pregnant so they could sit around and do nothing when they should be working to teach her. My mum was saying that this has most definitely come from the woman's mother, as the child was not the kind of girl to come out with this on her own. My mind boggles at that, 17 years ago this woman had a child yet she is standing in judgement over someone else choosing to do that and taking maternity leave, and tarring all women with that brush? Sad that a 17 year old girl was being taught to think like that instead of having a good female role model.

Yet a majority of women teachers will have their babies around August/September to gain almost a year off work, the students who have their classes interrupted are right to be annoyed at it.

MurdyWurdy

astrofool wrote: »

Yet a majority of women teachers will have their babies around August/September to gain almost a year off work, the students who have their classes interrupted are right to be annoyed at it.

So what do you suggest women do then? That teachers shouldn't be allowed to have babies? or only men should become teachers so that students classes aren't interupted by women being selfish and running off to have babies? That you ban their reproduction to times that suit other people?

Your attitude belongs in the dark ages. I'm disgusted.

vitani

astrofool wrote: »

Yet a majority of women teachers will have their babies around August/September to gain almost a year off work, the students who have their classes interrupted are right to be annoyed at it.

While plenty of couples plan to have children, planning the month they'll be conceived/born really isn't as easy as you're suggesting.

And anyway, in terms of 'interruption', surely it's better for a teacher to be gone for the entire school year, rather than a substitute taking over halfway through?

Wibbs

astrofool. There have been enough warnings in this thread. There is a warning in the very title of the thread. You chose to ignore all of them. Take a weeks ban for ignoring (repeated)mod instruction.

Roam

true-or-false wrote: »

That's a good point. Even with women, you'd often hear "oh I'm not girly", while a man would never feel the need to say "oh I'm not manly". To be manly evokes an image of being a man that a lot of men would be proud of, whereas the word "girly" doesn't come across as simply being a girl, but rather has negative connotations such as vanity, immaturity or weakness. As for the word "womanly", it would rarely come up in conversation, possibly because the attributes associated with women are either considered "girly" as though you're a child, or "motherly" as though the focus at that point in your role is raising children. I'm reaching a bit here, possibly taking a trend in language to mean more than it does, but I've been described jokingly as manly before, and admittedly found it flattering, as it was meant in a "you're capable and practical" sort of way. In accepting the compliment, I never considered that I was accepting the implication that is was unwomanly of me to be capable in practical skills.

I guess it's both an insult and a compliment, if there was such a thing. Well, that's how I consider those comments when people describe me as being surprisingly capable (for a woman). More of an insult, the more that I think about it.

I think that being capable boils down to confidence. Women generally tend not to be as confident as the average man, in my opinion. I don't believe that confidence is inherently male either but rather it is expected of males and being male is something to be proud of. Being female is not. I don't know how men experience this expectation but I do know that the messages that they're given in regards to what it means to be a man are straight forward and uncomplicated. Be faster, stronger, tougher - follow a straight line.

The messages that we're given are mixed and confusing and often contradictory. Our sexuality, for instance, forms a fundamental part of our identity yet it is not acceptable for women to express it. Our aggression tends to be directed inward because it's unacceptable for women to appear aggressive. Either that or we must resort to revealing it subtly through passive-aggression after clinging onto it for longer than we probably should. Our natural bodies aren't even accepted. Female body hair is still a taboo! Our natural self must be altered or hidden if we are to be accepted by society.

Is it any wonder then that being female isn't synonymous with being capable? How can we be capable when that requires us to be confident and confidence comes from self-acceptance? Society doesn't accept us for who we naturally are; in order to be liked we must alter ourselves in one way or another.

Shelga

I'm the only woman in an office of around 10. I experience sexist remarks all the time. Daily. Some examples:

A colleague asks what engine does my car have. Before I can respond, another colleague says "A metal one" followed by a laugh. I walked by his desk a couple of minutes later and he said something like "It's ok, keep being pretty!" and laughed again.

In the kitchen at work, slammed the microwave door by accident, 60 year old guy says "Oh must be PMT!" (Made a thread about that one as I was so taken aback by it at the time!)

Someone brought in eclairs for a birthday. As I'm eating one, male colleague says "Bet we know what you use that technique for!"

I genuinely don't know how to take these comments. The only one I feel properly offended by was the PMT one, as I don't know that guy. However, I know the others pretty well and sometimes I think that they wouldn't dream of saying these things they didn't know me, and know that I would take them as the jokes they are clearly intended to be.

But it does get repetitive, so much so that I wonder about the reasons behind it all. It's also boring and not really very funny.

clairefontaine

Shelga wrote: »

I'm the only woman in an office of around 10. I experience sexist remarks all the time. Daily. Some examples:

A colleague asks what engine does my car have. Before I can respond, another colleague says "A metal one" followed by a laugh. I walked by his desk a couple of minutes later and he said something like "It's ok, keep being pretty!" and laughed again.

In the kitchen at work, slammed the microwave door by accident, 60 year old guy says "Oh must be PMT!" (Made a thread about that one as I was so taken aback by it at the time!)

Someone brought in eclairs for a birthday. As I'm eating one, male colleague says "Bet we know what you use that technique for!"

I genuinely don't know how to take these comments. The only one I feel properly offended by was the PMT one, as I don't know that guy. However, I know the others pretty well and sometimes I think that they wouldn't dream of saying these things they didn't know me, and know that I would take them as the jokes they are clearly intended to be.

But it does get repetitive, so much so that I wonder about the reasons behind it all. It's also boring and not really very funny.

This is part of the reason I don't see "Mad Men" as all that historical, apart from the costumes that is.

midlandsmissus

Why don't we take action against the website witht eh awful article about one night stands.

I have already sent them a complaint email saying they are impressing dangerous values on their wide male audience.

They should take that article down. Would ye ladies on here sign a petition,and we could send it to them?

Lets take action!

clairefontaine

Roam wrote: »

I guess it's both an insult and a compliment, if there was such a thing. Well, that's how I consider those comments when people describe me as being surprisingly capable (for a woman). More of an insult, the more that I think about it.

I think that being capable boils down to confidence. Women generally tend not to be as confident as the average man, in my opinion. I don't believe that confidence is inherently male either but rather it is expected of males and being male is something to be proud of. Being female is not. I don't know how men experience this expectation but I do know that the messages that they're given in regards to what it means to be a man are straight forward and uncomplicated. Be faster, stronger, tougher - follow a straight line.

The messages that we're given are mixed and confusing and often contradictory. Our sexuality, for instance, forms a fundamental part of our identity yet it is not acceptable for women to express it. Our aggression tends to be directed inward because it's unacceptable for women to appear aggressive. Either that or we must resort to revealing it subtly through passive-aggression after clinging onto it for longer than we probably should. Our natural bodies aren't even accepted. Female body hair is still a taboo! Our natural self must be altered or hidden if we are to be accepted by society.

Is it any wonder then that being female isn't synonymous with being capable? How can we be capable when that requires us to be confident and confidence comes from self-acceptance? Society doesn't accept us for who we naturally are; in order to be liked we must alter ourselves in one way or another.

All of what you mention, aligns with something I suspect, but could never prove, that in the air it still lingers, the impulses that encourage women to fail. To remain in the casting role of being an acceptable woman, demure, meek, lady like, is to remain on the outside, to remain meek. The implicit reflex that to deviate from this script will earn you derisive comments, etc is to put you back in your place, namely outside of power, outside of even attempting to forge your own path.

It must be doubly difficult if you have an introverted nature, to combat this, so it might be better to work with it, to develop a kind of psychological teflon, which makes it impervious. Sure why should anyone have to do these things, hardly fair is it, but what else can you do, but keep trying and not let the bull**** take you down with it.

I dont know if things are that simple for guys, they are trapped to in their own ways [yes I know this the TLL- but we don't live in isolation, and for me these things cant be so easily segregated. So while we are encouraged to fail we also have permission to fail, whereas men -failure is well intolerable and worthy of ending one's life, the end of your purpose.

So somewhere we have to meet and ask, what the hell?

midlandsmissus

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

I've noticed so much blatant sexism on Facebook. I don't know how many here are college age, but there are Facebook pages that are set up by people from the various colleges around Ireland (and abroad) usually named something along the lines of "Spotted in *insert college name*" or "Confessions of a *insert college name* student" where people post either descriptions of a random person that they've seen around the college campus or give sordid details of sexual encounters that they've had with other students. The most offensive posts on the pages are almost always from lads and the descriptions are very detailed and usually contain the words "slut" or "whore" or some variation on that theme, and there were more than a couple of posts with sinister undertones disguised in "jokes". I remember me and few other people objected to the content of the page and we were immediately accused of being "no craic" and had the whole "sure, it's just a joke!" line trotted out. The page related to my college was eventually brought to the attention of the college authorities and is now being monitored. It was all outrageously misogynistic and borderline bullying in some cases. The response from some people of "it's just a bit of craic" was depressing too.

I think some men actually call women slut or whore because they are afraid of them.

midlandsmissus

Our sexuality, for instance, forms a fundamental part of our identity yet it is not acceptable for women to express it.

One day,women will have the same sexual opportunities as men.

midlandsmissus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Why don't we take action against the website witht eh awful article about one night stands.

I have already sent them a complaint email saying they are impressing dangerous values on their wide male audience.

They should take that article down. Would ye ladies on here sign a petition,and we could send it to them?

Lets take action!

I don't think taking down the article would make much difference, they've been asked to take things down before and they just take down the picture/article in question and nothing else changes. Here's another lovely piece:
http://www.unilad.com/a-medley-of-minge.html

Siuin

Whispered wrote: »

Walking through my town, lost in my thoughts, an old man passing me stepped in front of me and roared "IT WOULDN'T KILL YOU TO SMILE" then walked away.

I've gotten that one twice, and it doesn't getting any less obnoxious the second time... who the hell walks around the city grinning?

I encountered quite a lot of sexism in the army, along with the other female soldiers. Really, really blatant stuff too. Just a few examples off the top of my head:
- we were running around the track and my commander sidled up beside me, slapped my bottom and whispered "cute ass" before running on and leaving me completely shocked
- one of the soldiers had quite big boobs and when she was walking into the dining hall one of the young male soldiers called after her "wah! what tits!"
- if we were doing physical work (especially which involved a lot of crouching and lifting) the religious head of the base would pull up a chair and watch us
- because of the intense heat, all soldiers had been allowed to wear what they wanted on the base when they weren't working. However, some religious soldiers declared that the girls' shorts and tank tops were too immodest so all of the girls were forced to wear our uniforms all the time, which included t-shirts, overshirts with long sleeves, full length pants and boots. In 35-40 degree weather. Meanwhile, the guys wore whatever they wanted.

homemadecider

Siuin wrote: »

I've gotten that one twice, and it doesn't getting any less obnoxious the second time... who the hell walks around the city grinning?

I encountered quite a lot of sexism in the army, along with the other female soldiers. Really, really blatant stuff too. Just a few examples off the top of my head:
- we were running around the track and my commander sidled up beside me, slapped my bottom and whispered "cute ass" before running on and leaving me completely shocked
- one of the soldiers had quite big boobs and when she was walking into the dining hall one of the young male soldiers called after her "wah! what tits!"
- if we were doing physical work (especially which involved a lot of crouching and lifting) the religious head of the base would pull up a chair and watch us
- because of the intense heat, all soldiers had been allowed to wear what they wanted on the base when they weren't working. However, some religious soldiers declared that the girls' shorts and tank tops were too immodest so all of the girls were forced to wear our uniforms all the time, which included t-shirts, overshirts with long sleeves, full length pants and boots. In 35-40 degree weather. Meanwhile, the guys wore whatever they wanted.

Why on earth would you want to be part of an army that had so little respect for you?!

Siuin

homemadecider wrote: »

Why on earth would you want to be part of an army that had so little respect for you?!

Because I want to contribute to my country and I believe in the values espoused by the army. Unfortunately, when there are people ranging from 18 to their mid 20s heaped in together, there will always be behaviour issues

clairefontaine

Siuin wrote: »

Because I want to contribute to my country and I believe in the values espoused by the army. Unfortunately, when there are people ranging from 18 to their mid 20s heaped in together, there will always be behaviour issues

So these men are trained to go into combat but cant handle seeing womens' legs?

What a bunch of pussies.