Sexism you deal with in everyday life? ***Mod Note in first post. Please read***

wallycharlo

clairefontaine wrote: »

The way media treats sports is ridiculous all around. Why is it anything more than entertainment?

Why is on the news in the first place?

Why is it so morally scrutinised? [Who cares if they take drugs for example?]

How is any of that relevant to this thread?

clairefontaine

wallycharlo wrote: »

How is any of that relevant to this thread?

Because people were complaining about how women's sports were treated. I think it's ok how women's sports are treated, and I think men's sports should be treated with the same attitude.

wallycharlo

MrCreosote wrote: »

Nothing unusual in that unfortunately. The way the media deal with women's sports is a disgrace. A particular bugbear of mine is the way female athletes are referred to by their first name only, far more often than men who are usually first name/surname or surname only.

You're more likely to read about female athletes on the social pages of the newspaper than the sports pages.

Not sure in what context you may be referring to here? e.g. While commentating, Jimmy Magee would nearly always refer to Katie Taylor as 'Taylor', George Hamiliton would nearly always refer to Sonia O'Sullivan as 'O'Sullivan', etc.

wallycharlo

clairefontaine wrote: »

Because people were complaining about how women's sports were treated. I think it's ok how women's sports are treated, and I think men's sports should be treated with the same attitude.

It seems to me that these comments are directed at sports in general, and hence not part of this discussion, which is focused on 'Sexism you deal with in everyday life'.

Honey-ec

clairefontaine wrote: »

Because people were complaining about how women's sports were treated. I think it's ok how women's sports are treated, and I think men's sports should be treated with the same attitude.

But that's clearly because you just have no interest in sports in general. It's nothing to do with sexism.

Das Kitty

One of my husband's friends is French and his wife took an instant dislike to me. Visibly sneering and what have you, I'm not even sure she was making any attempt to hide it. After about a year I discovered what the issue was. I was giving them a lift somewhere and my husband was in the front with me. He was wearing a t-shirt he lifted out of the dryer, which was creased.

French guy's wife taps me on the shoulder. "Didn't you notice your boyfriend's t-shirt is creased? Doesn't that make you ashamed?"

I laughed and said, "No. I don't mind that he doesn't iron his t-shirts. Sure it's up to him."

"I mean, aren't you ashamed that you're too lazy to do his ironing?"

I could have pulled over and asked her to get out of the car. But instead my and my husband laughed and made fun of her the whole way back to her house. "Oh, husband. I didn't realise you had been maimed and unable to wash your own clothes!"

Needless to say I no longer got invites to her deathly dull dinner parties after that.

Morag

jugger0 wrote: »

Gender socialization isnt the reason boys and girls prefer different toys/colours, its biological.

That myth has been busted, it's not biology it's social.

http://www.uecthai.com/myth-of-pink-and-blue/

MrCreosote

clairefontaine wrote: »

The way media treats sports is ridiculous all around. Why is it anything more than entertainment?

Why is on the news in the first place?

Why is it so morally scrutinised? [Who cares if they take drugs for example?]

Well, that's for a different thread. This is about sexism- as you say yourself men's and women's sports are treated differently.

wallycharlo wrote: »

Not sure in what context you may be referring to here? e.g. While commentating, Jimmy Magee would nearly always refer to Katie Taylor as 'Taylor', George Hamiliton would nearly always refer to Sonia O'Sullivan as 'O'Sullivan', etc.

Two examples don't make a representative sample. Here's an Irish Times article about gender bias in sports reporting (bit about the names at the bottom): http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0526/1224316720712.html

There's plenty of studies looking at the media's representation of female athletes right from 1984 to present, in Olympic sports, tennis, basketball and so on. The first name calling is clearly far higher for women than men (and as well for black athletes). It's just another example or a symptom of lazy sexism in the media with regard to women's sports.

eviltwin

As someone with zero interest in sport can I ask why it matters if a sportsperson is called by their first or last name?

clairefontaine

All I was saying is that all sports should be treated with the same insignificance as womens sports. Make it equal, but in the less relevent direction.

eviltwin

eviltwin wrote: »

As someone with zero interest in sport can I ask why it matters if a sportsperson is called by their first or last name?

As someone who also has no interest in sport I don't know if it's true or not that women are often called by their first name, but if they are then it does matter.

Surnames are used in formal situations because they're a sign of respect. First names are used for people you're familiar with and kids.

You know that uncomfortable feeling when someone you don't know is overly-familiar with you, or that feeling like someone's treating you like a child? Same thing.

Pandoras Twist

Great thread so far. Good to see people are questioning behaviours. Challenging day to day sexism is the only way large changes can be made.

Most of my friends are male and I know none of them are sexist. They truly do see me and them as equals. However, as friends do, we give eachother awful slaggings about everything under the sun. Every so often they'll throw in some sexist dig (because they know it will get a reaction, not because they believe it) and I'll go off on a rant. I had a conversation with the guys I went to college with about why it bothers me so much. My point was that while we did the same degree, and I did better than them in a good few exams, within a few years I would probably be earning less than them for no reason.

I started a job in a very corporate environment a few months ago. While the company does seem to strive for gender balance and there are a lot of women in important positions, the biggest issue I'm experiencing is with the guys that started with me at the same time who all seem to clique together. If the group going to lunch ends up having a slight majority of girls, the guys will back out and go somewhere else.

But above all, the single most frustrating example of day to day sexism I experience is lifts and doors. The lifts in work are quite small, but if I'm at the back of the lift and there's 4 other guys in there with me they all wait for me to leave first. Even if this is more awkward for everyone involved. Same applies for doors. If I'm at the back of a group, they all stand aside. It's impractical and downright annoying. I've started being stubborn and waiting for them to go, but you can see it just creates a negative impression of you in their eyes. Especially when they probably think they're being nice.

Pandoras Twist

Pandoras Twist wrote: »

If the group going to lunch ends up having a slight majority of girls, the guys will back out and go somewhere else.

This happens in my group of friends all the time. If I'm organising a night out, I text the females and then ask the guy I'm closest with to ask the males. If I ask the guys, they clearly get worried that they might end up with a majority of women and are far less likely to come out, whereas when asked by a man to the exact same occasion, they're more likely to show.

wallycharlo

MrCreosote wrote: »

...

Two examples don't make a representative sample. Here's an Irish Times article about gender bias in sports reporting (bit about the names at the bottom): http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0526/1224316720712.html

...

Well funnily enough the exact two examples which I used there are called out at the end of this article

i.e. :
'Malachy Clerkin, Irish Times sports journalist and author, says, “One thing that you always notice when there’s an Irish sports star who becomes highly proficient in her field is that in headlines they’re always referred to by their first name. That never happens with men: Rory McIlroy is always McIlroy, Harrington is Harrington.”

Yet Taylor becomes Katie, O’Sullivan was usually Sonia, Smith was mostly Michelle.'

... ok, granted, the chap being quoted is a sports journalist, which I am not, and he is clearly more qualified to comment than myself. In my own experience though, when I have watched the above atheltes competeing they were nearly always referred to by their surname? Perhaps main stream journalism may catch onto the 'Katie' factor, but I would see that as more something connected to the general sensationaliem associated with our Olympic hero, rather than something which is sexist in nature. But the back pages themselves (i.e. sports section) do not tend to differentiate between then sexes, in my view anyway.

In the golf it's "Rory", "Paddy" and "G-Mac", the surname thing doesn't apply whatsoever. I would take a wild guess that the surname thing comes from two things, firstly that there are a lot more famous male sportsmen than female and it's less likely they'll share a surname than a forename and secondly that an awful lot of lads in Ireland will either me referred to by their surname or a corruption of said surname as a nickname, while it seems less common among women.
It's all about branding really, there's a reason Zlatan Ibrahimovic trademarked "Zlatan" rather than "Ibrahimovic".

vitani

I think it depends on the sport. In tennis, it'd be Sampras or Agassi rather than 'Pete' or 'Andre'. Or, you know, whoever the current players are. But afaik, the women would also be called by their surnames, unless they wanted to distinguish between the Williams sisters.

In snooker (earning my cool points here), first names seem to be a lot more common. Ronnie O'Sullivan would be referred to as 'Ronnie' as often as a commentator would use 'O'Sullivan'. But then, with such a small field of professional players, and as most commentators are former players, there's a lot more camaraderie between them.

wallycharlo

Deleted User wrote: »

....

It's all about branding really

...

Agree fully. Brand 'Katie' has much more inherent value than brand 'Taylor'.

But there is nothing sexist in that, in my opinion at least.

kylith

true-or-false wrote: »

As someone who also has no interest in sport I don't know if it's true or not that women are often called by their first name, but if they are then it does matter.

Surnames are used in formal situations because they're a sign of respect. First names are used for people you're familiar with and kids.

You know that uncomfortable feeling when someone you don't know is overly-familiar with you, or that feeling like someone's treating you like a child? Same thing.

I can't agree with you there. Calling someone "Mr Soandso" may be a sign of respect, but just calling them "Soandso" is the opposite. Lords of manors didn't call their servants by their surnames because they respected them so much, they did it because they didn't.

newport2

kylith wrote: »

I can't agree with you there. Calling someone "Mr Soandso" may be a sign of respect, but just calling them "Soandso" is the opposite. Lords of manors didn't call their servants by their surnames because they respected them so much, they did it because they didn't.

+1

I think Buttonftw is right in the post above. If the commentator referred to a footballer as John, he'd have people immediately asking which John he meant as there's 30 guys on the pitch. There's less overlap of surnames. Individual sports people often get referred to by their first names, whether they're male or female, the example of Rory and Padraig given above being typical.

I'd refer to some of my mates by their surnames. But to address someone I don't know by their surname would be disrespectful in my opinion. So if anything, surnames not being used to address people is more a mark of respect than not.

None of my female friends get referred to by their surname, by male or female friends. And I don't know for sure, but at a guess I don't think they'd like to be. Maybe I'm wrong on that though.

kylith

kylith wrote: »

I can't agree with you there. Calling someone "Mr Soandso" may be a sign of respect, but just calling them "Soandso" is the opposite. Lords of manors didn't call their servants by their surnames because they respected them so much, they did it because they didn't.

True, I didn't think of that. I guess it comes down to level of familiarity rather than level of respect. I was thinking more along the lines of surnames accompanied by titles, like when teachers insist on being addressed by their surname.

Wibbs

OK we're going in circles with this sports names thing, can we get back to the original topic please, which is ladies personal experiences of sexism in everyday life. Thank you

shoos

I'm in a bit of a pickle at the moment with one of my close friend's new boyfriend.

Basically, every time she brings him out with her he doesn't say a word to any of us girls for the entire time. This counts for sober and drunk, from a 15 minute cup of coffee to a full blown night out. Either way, he's sitting back looking at his phone, staring into the distance, just not paying a bit of attention to any of us or showing any interest in getting to know us.

The reason I'm writing about this in a sexism thread is that, whenever any of our male mates are there, he's a completely different person. He's chatting away, eager to get to know them, talk about the football or whatever.

I know it sounds like he's just shy or uncomfortable around girls, and I gave him the benefit of doubt at first, but he's been out with us enough times now to show it's not that he can't talk to us because of shyness or whatever, he just literally has zero interest in doing so.

Really getting on my tits to be honest!

boogle

shoos wrote: »

I'm in a bit of a pickle at the moment with one of my close friend's new boyfriend.

Basically, every time she brings him out with her he doesn't say a word to any of us girls for the entire time. This counts for sober and drunk, from a 15 minute cup of coffee to a full blown night out. Either way, he's sitting back looking at his phone, staring into the distance, just not paying a bit of attention to any of us or showing any interest in getting to know us.

The reason I'm writing about this in a sexism thread is that, whenever any of our male mates are there, he's a completely different person. He's chatting away, eager to get to know them, talk about the football or whatever.

I know it sounds like he's just shy or uncomfortable around girls, and I gave him the benefit of doubt at first, but he's been out with us enough times now to show it's not that he can't talk to us because of shyness or whatever, he just literally has zero interest in doing so.

Really getting on my tits to be honest!

The world is full of assholes. Some of them are also sexist. :-)

wallycharlo

Q : Are examples of men being on the receiving end of sexism from women in everyday life also welcome in this thread, or would that lead to a period in the sin bin?

Honey-ec

wallycharlo wrote: »

Q : Are examples of men being on the receiving end of sexism from women in everyday life also welcome in this thread, or would that lead to a period in the sin bin?

Your answer is in the mod note in the first post.

Absolutely nothing stopping you creating a thread for that in tGC, though.

wallycharlo

Honey-ec wrote: »

Your answer is in the mod note in the first post.

Absolutely nothing stopping you creating a thread for that in tGC, though.

Point taken, I thought I would ask in any case.

(I can't seem to find a smiley which would be indicative of ironic humour, so I'll just use this one )

GalwayGuy2

Your answer is in the mod note in the first post.

Absolutely nothing stopping you creating a thread for that in tGC, though.

Hmmm, I thought the mod note was more saying you can't come in and say "Gah, this thread is sexist because it doesn't mention men" sort of thing, rather than men can't post daily sexism that they face?

Sorry for a little bit of derailing:P

Eve_Dublin

wallycharlo wrote: »

Point taken, I thought I would ask in any case.

(I can't seem to find a smiley which would be indicative of ironic humour, so I'll just use this one )

There is actually a thread in TGC.


I don't take the thread in TGC as an attack on all women, I take it as an attack on sexism against men (although some posters use the blanket term of "feminists" as the common enemy, which gets on my wick). The vast majority of men aren't sexist (of course) and I think everyone here would acknowledge that. I'm not sure why random men who aren't mentioned in these stories are getting so offended. I don't think anyone stated "Irish men are sexist" or "Men are sexist full stop". These are examples where women have encountered sexism and want to share those experiences for whatever reason (probably just to vent and not to start a campaign to burn the houses down of those responsible). It happens and it's not nice. It's the very same as recounting experiences of racism. Sexism is real. It happens against both genders.

I'd love to see less of a "us against them" mentality but as long as the people (both men and women) in these stories carry on like they do with the attitudes they hold, we'll never get there and these stories will continue to be recounted.

wallycharlo

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

...

I'd love to see less of a "us against them" mentality but as long as the people (both men and women) in these stories carry on like they do with the attitudes they hold, we'll never get there and these stories will continue to be recounted.

I think you've hit the nail right on the head there.

In an ideal world it would be nice to have a single thread where both men and women can compare and contrast situations where they feel that they have been discriminated against in some way due to their sex, where the points could be debated in a sensible/respectful way, without the need to having two polarized threads where only either men or women can contribute. I can see the obvious difficulties in realizing that though, as the thread would very likely soon descend into a mud slinging session!

Eve_Dublin

wallycharlo wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail right on the head there.

In an ideal world it would be nice to have a single thread where both men and women can compare and contrast situations where they feel that they have been discriminated against in some way due to their sex, where the points could be debated in a sensible/respectful way, without the need to having two polarized threads where only either men or women can contribute. I can see the obvious difficulties in realizing that though, as the thread would very likely soon descend into a mud slinging session!

Exactly. Hence the reason TLL was created in the first place as aplce where women could post to avoid the mud slinging matches. There's nowhere else on this website where this could be posted and respected. People have genuine stories here. Yes, there are man haters out there but I don't identify with them. I live in Spain where sexism definitely exists, I posted about it because two other posters did and it's good to vent about it because it pees me off. Some men have come in questioning people's experiences in a defensive and condescending manner as if they were an attack on them personally and I genuinely haven't seen any attacks in here on men as a gender, just people's experiences of gender-based discrimination from BOTH genders.

People can act the prick under the guise of anonymity and people should recognise that. The internet is far from an ideal world. You should know that too.