Sexism you deal with in everyday life? ***Mod Note in first post. Please read***

Stheno

awec wrote: »

Is there?

The doctor assumed she would have children. Given that the vast majority of people in Ireland have children at some point that is not an unreasonable assumption in my opinion.

Has the world really got to the stage where the suggestion that a woman may one day get pregnant is now offensive?

Yes we have choices you know?

redlead wrote: »

That's because it is unusual for a woman to watch sport.



This is not sexism. It is called a joke.

I'm half thinking of reporting this post, and while posting this I'm going to, the interest level in sport in this forum is such that it entered the chit chat thread recently.

redlead

Stheno wrote: »

Yes we have choices you know?

I'm half thinking of reporting this post, and while posting this I'm going to

you must feel very empowered

Stheno

redlead wrote: »

you must feel very empowered

Frankly, I think you are either a troll or have not read the charter

Way too many generalsations in your posts, and you've not posted in response to anyone who has posted knowledgeably about sport. And unlike you I know the fundamental basis of posting on a message board, and can get my quotations right.

Just go away.

redlead

Stheno wrote: »

Way too many generalsations in your posts

The entire thread is full of generalisations. Some generalisations are understandable, others are not. Assuming that a woman will not be knowledgeable on sport is hardly surprising or the crime of the century. The odds are that she will not be. As I said, there are many women who will know a lot about sport which is great.

and you've not posted in response to anyone who has posted knowledgeably about sport

why would I do that? This is not a thread on sport.

And unlike you I know the fundamental basis of posting on a message board, and can get my quotations right.

Wow, you have me there. If that's your way of discrediting my opinion then hats off to you.

Finally, just because someone does not agree with you, that does not make them a troll. Sexism is a terrible thing, but many of the stories being told on here are simply not cases of sexism.

rainbow kirby

Get back on topic. Redlead, do not post in this thread again.

vitani

vitani wrote: »

In general, I don't have to deal with much sexism on a day-to-day basis. But I was a bit taken aback to be called a 'cheap date' when I mentioned to someone recently that I didn't drink much. It just brings to mind a horrible image of a guy trying to get a woman drunk.

This has been picked up on a couple of times, so I just want to add more context. The 'cheap date' was from a man I had only met a few hours beforehand, who had already made a few dodgy remarks, although this was the first directed at me. As part of a conversation with a large group, I mentioned that I haven't drank much since having my daughter. The immediate response was 'Oh ho ho, cheap date!'

I would have little problem with a friend joking but for someone I didn't know to reduce me like that in front of a group of people felt sexist and made me uncomfortable.

pwurple

So, not sexist as there is no discrimination, but vaguely related... I have been playing the pronoun game all week.

Telling my employer I would be out for an appointment to see my orthopedic consultant, and he asked who 'he' was, as he needed a referral. It's a 'she'. Similar conversations with other people this week about my GP (she not he), Solicitor (she not he) and my grandfathers care worker (he not she).

The care worker was assumed to be female, and all the others male. Upside down every time.

The Reamer

bigbudda wrote: »

Just a small thing but being called "good girl" from clients.... can't stand it

Yeah. It's like Fr Ted and "you're a lovely girl" type of thing. Common amongst the older generation. My dad used always say that type of thing. Reminds me of the solicitor part in Fr Ted.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fneTGPIU7xY

Roadtrippin

Gotham wrote: »

Can you deny that it's not an inconvenience to have someone in a supervisory job just disappear from work for whatever reason? Wouldn't you feel cheated if you were in his shoes?

No. My supervisor in the job I was referring to was a very hardworking women and her being pregnant did not impact on the quality of her work. The guy that made that comment was always a bit of a know-it-all and simply jealous. He always thought he knew more than her (which he didn't which is why he was never offered that supervisor position) and was a dick in general, not just when he made that remark.

clairefontaine

Im sorry if this is off topic but I am wondering what is the investment in denial?

People experience it, they are witnesses to it, some examples more extreme than others, but nonetheless they are significant enough to make someone feel second status, to use De Beauvoir's termonology.

Do those who deny it somehow feel personally responsible or that blame is being attributed across the board or is it a pull towards preserving things as they are?

cantdecide

pixiebean22 wrote: »

But you know, she obviously thinks it's okay to talk about him like that because... he's a man :rolleyes:

We had a lady working in sales in the past and when I was in sales support and if I had a follow-up or if I made an error, she'd say "men are crap at multi-tasking- I bet the phone rang or something when you did that". I was rather offended by this as I'm quite good at multi-tasking, thank you very much.

Dolbert

clairefontaine wrote: »

Im sorry if this is off topic but I am wondering what is the investment in denial?

People experience it, they are witnesses to it, some examples more extreme than others, but nonetheless they are significant enough to make someone feel second status, to use De Beauvoir's termonology.

Do those who deny it somehow feel personally responsible or that blame is being attributed across the board or is it a pull towards preserving things as they are?

I genuinely think because they haven't experienced it in the same lifelong, constant, 'background noise' sense, that it simply doesn't exist, or that we are simply wrong, whiny and just exaggerating. There's a bit of a sense of 'look, you have equality now, so just shut the fcuk up about it'.

Das Kitty

Dolbert wrote: »

I genuinely think because they haven't experienced it in the same lifelong, constant, 'background noise' sense, that it simply doesn't exist, or that we are simply wrong, whiny and just exaggerating. There's a bit of a sense of 'look, you have equality now, so just shut the fcuk up about it'.

I think it's more about nerves being hit.

Annasopra

pwurple wrote: »

So, not sexist as there is no discrimination, but vaguely related... I have been playing the pronoun game all week.

Telling my employer I would be out for an appointment to see my orthopedic consultant, and he asked who 'he' was, as he needed a referral. It's a 'she'. Similar conversations with other people this week about my GP (she not he), Solicitor (she not he) and my grandfathers care worker (he not she).

The care worker was assumed to be female, and all the others male. Upside down every time.

That's an interesting one - a few years ago I mentioned discussing something with my local TD and the response was something like "what did he say?" I had to explain that my local TD is a she

Roadtrippin

pwurple wrote: »

So, not sexist as there is no discrimination, but vaguely related... I have been playing the pronoun game all week.

Telling my employer I would be out for an appointment to see my orthopedic consultant, and he asked who 'he' was, as he needed a referral. It's a 'she'. Similar conversations with other people this week about my GP (she not he), Solicitor (she not he) and my grandfathers care worker (he not she).

The care worker was assumed to be female, and all the others male. Upside down every time.

The assumption that in certain professions it's mostly men or in some others only women is maybe not discriminating as such but I reckon is at least enforcing outdated stereotypes and sometimes based on sexist or at least old-fashioned views.
When I taught languages I always found it interesting looking at the section of the text books where they introduced vocabulary regarding jobs/professions. In a lot of those books you will find that the majority of pictures of doctors, mechanics, pilots, taxi drivers etc. are of men while females are often depicted in jobs such as nursing, secretary, florist, dancer or similar.
This may not be overtly sexist but it supports stereotypes that I would hope are outdated by now, not just stereotyping women but also men.

clairefontaine

Roadtrippin wrote: »

The assumption that in certain professions it's mostly men or in some others only women is maybe not discriminating as such but I reckon is at least enforcing outdated stereotypes and sometimes based on sexist or at least old-fashioned views.
When I taught languages I always found it interesting looking at the section of the text books where they introduced vocabulary regarding jobs/professions. In a lot of those books you will find that the majority of pictures of doctors, mechanics, pilots, taxi drivers etc. are of men while females are often depicted in jobs such as nursing, secretary, florist, dancer or similar.
This may not be overtly sexist but it supports stereotypes that I would hope are outdated by now, not just stereotyping women but also men.

I have seen so much ideological bias in educational textbooks it's criminal [both directions- sexist and mushy leftist stuff.]

Madam_X

Dolbert wrote: »

I genuinely think because they haven't experienced it in the same lifelong, constant, 'background noise' sense, that it simply doesn't exist, or that we are simply wrong, whiny and just exaggerating. There's a bit of a sense of 'look, you have equality now, so just shut the fcuk up about it'.

Some men might be feeling a bit under attack reading this though - it's obviously not the intention, but still, it may feel that way.

What has really hit home to me in recent times is hostility towards women from other women. The DNA test fiasco and historically the laundries. Dismaying stuff.

It's definitely not always men who help perpetuate a certain status quo.

The pronoun thing - I reckon lots of us are guilty of it; it's not right but it's the result of social conditioning and a particular profession having a majority gender associated with it. If someone was referring to a nurse or teacher or supermarket cashier, I'd probably presumptuously say "she". Although I wouldn't say "he" re a doctor - my generation is used to the idea of there being both male and female doctors.

ahnowbrowncow

clairefontaine wrote: »

Im sorry if this is off topic but I am wondering what is the investment in denial?

People experience it, they are witnesses to it, some examples more extreme than others, but nonetheless they are significant enough to make someone feel second status, to use De Beauvoir's termonology.

Do those who deny it somehow feel personally responsible or that blame is being attributed across the board or is it a pull towards preserving things as they are?

I think it's because some of the sexism examples haven't been sexist but more examples of ignorance or rudeness.

Plus there has been a few generalisations so I'm not surprised people have been defensive when they read this thread.

Roadtrippin

Madam_X wrote: »

Some men might be feeling a bit under attack reading this though - it's obviously not the intention, but still, it may feel that way.

I know what you mean but at the same time if they feel under attack (which they shouldn't - we're only sharing experiences here and not saying all men are sexist pigs) they don't have to join this discussion.

Madam_X wrote: »

The pronoun thing - I reckon lots of us are guilty of it; it's not right but it's the result of social conditioning and a particular profession having a majority gender associated with it. If someone was referring to a nurse or teacher or supermarket cashier, I'd probably presumptuously say "she". Although I wouldn't say "he" re a doctor - my generation is used to the idea of there being both male and female doctors.

I agree, a lot of people are guilty of presuming certain jobs are done by mostly men and others by mostly women. At the same time in places like language text books it's entirely in the hands of the publisher and learning material designer to not further perpetuate stereotypes and change preconceived notions about say nurses always being women and the majority of doctor's being men... Particularly since those stereotypes don't even reflect reality anymore in this day and age.

daenerysstormborn3

cantdecide wrote: »

We had a lady working in sales in the past and when I was in sales support and if I had a follow-up or if I made an error, she'd say "men are crap at multi-tasking- I bet the phone rang or something when you did that". I was rather offended by this as I'm quite good at multi-tasking, thank you very much.

And that's the least offensive thing she says about her husband.

Annasopra

Madam_X wrote: »

Some men might be feeling a bit under attack reading this though - it's obviously not the intention, but still, it may feel that way.

Some men might.

Personally as a man I wouldn't.

I've seen what Dolbert said many times though.

Morag

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think it's more about nerves being hit.

I think it's the cognitive dissonance, they can't fathom that the world might bot be how they experience it. So much of our media and reporting is biased to male point of view and male gaze that when faced with a few women challenging that and their own experiences/conculsions then the women must be wrong

So much gets swept aside as 'women's issues' sure we are only what 51% of the global population and here for every 100 women here only 98 men.

We are a majority which is treated like a minority and sexism is one of the tools of oppression it makes ourselves and others think less of us.

Cosmicfox

I was in class one day for SPHE 2 years ago in 5th year and we were talking about women in the workplace.

Our teacher (a woman) kept going on about how women in countries like Sweden were 'incredibly selfish' for focusing on their careers and deciding not to have any children.


No-one said anything at the time but it really pissed me off. Especially since this woman only turned up to her own job when she felt like it.

LegacyUser

The issue of everyday sexism is that alot of the times when you describe one or two on going issues it can sound as things that could be passed off as people joking or someone being over sensitive. I had a conversation with some friends recently were I mentioned the amount of sexism my mother faced as a doctor and one of my male friends present got very worked up over the issue telling me I couldn't use the word sexism as nothing that I described was illegal. Many of the issues my mum has described as everyday events he put down to an older generation mentality you just have to accept and it's not illegally therefore she should shut up about it.

Now for the record this isn't a topic my mother talks about much at all. I didn't know for years the amount of hurdles she had to jump to set up and run her business. It was only when I directly asked her [actually due to a thread on this forum about feminism a few years back] that she went into detail of the issues she had that the male doctors in the town didn't have. And it's from both genders, people often assume when you say you deal with sexism that it must be from men but women can be just as responsible. When my mother moved to the medium sized typical Irish town I grew up in she was told by both men and women there was no place for a female GP in the town. Why would anyone go to a female GP sure she wouldn't be able to do late night call outs due to having no one to drive her late at night [my dad was working overseas at the time] and she had a young child, surely all her time should be spent looking after her. My mum has a pretty thick hide thankfully and set up business and spent years working 24/7 and wound up with the largest GP practice in the area. I asked her was it better now as she's been working for 25 years and surely attitudes had changed and she said no, she is still told regularly that women shouldn't be doctors by folks, told she was a bad mother working the hours she did, she was back working 4 weeks after having my sister which was just evil in many peoples eyes. She worked for the local GAA for years as both team and stadium doctor but was mocked by many of the staff when she turned up to practice sessions and when she turned up for an away match in another county she was laughed at by the security at the stadium and informed she couldn't be the team doctor as she was a woman.

A few years ago her business had grown so big she took on a junior doctor who was male and suddenly the town council, the GAA and other such groups would only talk to him even when she was in the room. Going to sort something out at the bank she was asked should her partner not be there and she pointed out he was her employee not her partner and the bank manager just didn't seem to understand this. She also had issues with the bank sending her statements for her business address to my dad for many years. I've asked how she put up with alot of the crap she has and her view is she'd just make it worse making an issue out of things because she'd just be viewed as some hysterically woman who wasn't able to handle the pressure of running her own business [though in the case of the bank she did move all her accounts to a different bank]

Casual sexism, racism, homophobia etc etc are common but as its general stuff that's not illegal we just shut up about it because most of the time people just don't want to draw attention to themselves by making an issue over it. Just look at this thread were people are claiming over reaction and sensitive to some of the examples others have put forward.

vitani

Cosmicfox wrote: »

I was in class one day for SPHE 2 years ago in 5th year and we were talking about women in the workplace.

Our teacher (a woman) kept going on about how women in countries like Sweden were 'incredibly selfish' for focusing on their careers and deciding not to have any children.


No-one said anything at the time but it really pissed me off. Especially since this woman only turned up to her own job when she felt like it.

On that note, was anybody watching 'Keeping Mum' this week - the new show with Lucy Kennedy?

It was interesting to see the reaction of the stay-at-home mum to the mum who was out working and studying. She couldn't fathom how the other mother spent so little time with her children, yet her own husband seemed to regularly be working late every night of the week, which meant only seeing his kids on the weekend.

jaffacakesyum

This thread is depressing If there were a thread in tGC about men dealing with sexism you wouldn't have women dismissing them and calling them ridiculous. The sad thing is there will ALWAYS be men (and women) with these views. It will never change completely.

Fukuyama

Cosmicfox wrote: »

I was in class one day for SPHE 2 years ago in 5th year and we were talking about women in the workplace.

Our teacher (a woman) kept going on about how women in countries like Sweden were 'incredibly selfish' for focusing on their careers and deciding not to have any children.


No-one said anything at the time but it really pissed me off. Especially since this woman only turned up to her own job when she felt like it.

You just brought up an old memory for me.

When I was in secondary school, first year, I had a science teacher. A really small mousy woman. She had a couple of kids that she'd talk about every now and again.

But I recall a few times when she kind of insinuated women have a 'place'. Like she'd say how it's only right for her to be at home (she was part time) etc... And that we were lucky because we could be freer in terms of college course choice, career... (It was an all boys school). Never really appreciated that sentiment.

What's odd is that she would have been one of the 'pioneering' women shall we say. She was the first ever female teacher in my CBS which opened in 1956 - she started in the late 90s I think someone told me. Don't know why she has a skewed opinions like that.

Oh and one time she brought her sick 5 y/o to school. Dressed as a cowboy, walking around the class. He asked me the time. I told him and she kicked me out for talking to her kid.

Weird woman.

Fukuyama

jaffacakesyum wrote: »

This thread is depressing If there were a thread in tGC about men dealing with sexism you wouldn't have women dismissing them and calling them ridiculous. The sad thing is there will ALWAYS be men (and women) with these views. It will never change completely.

To be honest it's a vocal minority of men.

Anyone I know would be pretty disgusted at any sexism. Although there is the background 'conditioned' sexism such as assuming your mechanic will be a man, but that'll change over time. It already is really.

I also do think sexism is dying rapidly. Generations of men in this country have been raised by mammies and taught in full-male institutions until 18 where your conditioned to believe strength, dominance and your tackle box keep the world spinning.

I honestly believe my future kids generation will laugh at the idea of pay gaps and traditional roles.

Malari

Cosmicfox wrote: »

I was in class one day for SPHE 2 years ago in 5th year and we were talking about women in the workplace.

Our teacher (a woman) kept going on about how women in countries like Sweden were 'incredibly selfish' for focusing on their careers and deciding not to have any children.


No-one said anything at the time but it really pissed me off. Especially since this woman only turned up to her own job when she felt like it.

2 years ago? I'm shocked! Was this a boys, girls or mixed school, Cosmicfox? I was in 5th year (does quick calculation...:o) almost 20 years ago and we didn't have SPHE, but in a religion class or any class where discussion was encouraged, there's no WAY a teacher wouldn't have been challenged on that (I went to a mixed school). We would amost be hoping the teachers would say something like this on occasion in order to stimulate some sort of interesting debate!

Das Kitty

Dean0088 wrote: »

I honestly believe my future kids generation will laugh at the idea of pay gaps and traditional roles.

This is my hope. For Ireland at least.

My best friend's mum is a vocal feminist and we had a really good discussion last week about the things I woman couldn't do up until 1976. (e.g. have any claim to the family home, even if she paid every penny on the mortgage)

A lot has changed in this country since, and although I think the pace of change has slowed, I do believe that it's ongoing.