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New "anti-gay" commercial

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    #122
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    spikethedog wrote: »
    People are easily offended.

    Easy to say when it's not your rights that are up for debate.


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    #123
    sarkozy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭sarkozy


    Not just the voice-over artists. Someone had to design and animate it, too. Stylistically, I'm surprised at how good the animation is. But if I was the animators, I'd be morto.


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    #124
    KamiKazeKitten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭KamiKazeKitten


    Ugh, that video is just a pile of horseshít...oh it's the Iona Institute? That explains it then.


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    #125
    Sinfonia
    Registered Users Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭Sinfonia


    spikethedog wrote: »
    "Only a man and a woman can make new life" FACT.

    First, the statement you quoted and the statement you gave don't mean the same thing.

    Second, why is that a reason to be allowed or disallowed to marry?


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    #126
    KamiKazeKitten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭KamiKazeKitten


    spikethedog wrote: »
    "Only a man and a woman can make new life" FACT.

    Right. So sterile people and the elderly shouldn't be getting married, amirite?


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    #127
    efb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 35,514 ✭✭✭✭efb


    spikethedog wrote: »
    "Only a man and a woman can make new life" FACT.

    What has that to do with my statement???


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    #128
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,764 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    spikethedog wrote: »
    "Only a man and a woman can make new life" FACT.

    So? what does that have to do with marriage? I know many people who have children and arent married and dont feel a need to be, marriage has NOTHING to do with children


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    #129
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    mackg wrote: »
    I think the pro side would be better served with an ad that focused on pointing out the holes in the argument made in the video in the op rather than what it does there. There are people on the fence who have never given the issue any thought and that Iona Institute video could well sway them in that direction.

    We can and do point out all the rational reasons and studies on the outcomes of same sex parenting - kids raised by gay parents consistently do better academically and are apparently happier, on average, than their counterparts incidentally - but the fact is, there simply aren't any "rational" reasons against it. The distaste for gay couples or families isn't a rational thing, and if you have a look in any of the marriage equality topics on the board you'll see what I mean.

    The posters arguing against it are invariably vague about their reasons because they don't hold up to scrutiny and they know it. When challenged, they just repeat over and over again that they have a right to their opinion, rather than actually backing said opinion up. You'll regularly see those posters then freak out that anybody's daring to challenge them at all.

    They'll demand facts and stats and research and offer none of their own. Then they'll dispute the source of those facts and stats and research. Then when that's backed up, they return to step 1, lather and repeat. It's an endless, circular argument meant to obscure the fact that they just haven't any good reasons to offer of their own, and we've all seen it over and over.

    At this point, I'm seriously starting to think that a rational argument will only go so far - because the opposition isn't rational.


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    #130
    Pilotdude5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Pilotdude5


    My Mommy and Daddy made me back in the 80's before they were married. If marriage is exclusively for a man and a woman to raise children, do I exist?


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    #131
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    Links234 wrote: »
    Easy to say when it's not your rights that are up for debate.

    Is that ad against your rights?
    They're entitled to state their position as much as you are.


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    #132
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    VinLieger wrote: »
    So? what does that have to do with marriage? I know many people who have children and arent married and dont feel a need to be, marriage has NOTHING to do with children

    It's the only tactic that opponents to same sex marriage rights seem to have. That marriage = children.


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    #133
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    KamiKazeKitten wrote: »
    Right. So sterile people and the elderly shouldn't be getting married, amirite?

    What? :rolleyes:


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    #134
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    Sinfonia wrote: »
    First, the statement you quoted and the statement you gave don't mean the same thing.

    Second, why is that a reason to be allowed or disallowed to marry?

    What?

    and

    Who's stopping anyone getting married?


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    #135
    Links234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    spikethedog wrote: »
    Is that ad against your rights?
    They're entitled to state their position as much as you are.

    Yes as a matter of fact, they ARE against my rights.

    Sure they're entitled to state their position, but that doesn't mean their position is shielded from any and all criticism now, does it? Freedom of expression is a two way street, and I'm free to call it out for the hogwash it is. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to say something without fear of criticism.


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    #136
    KamiKazeKitten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭KamiKazeKitten


    spikethedog wrote: »
    What? :rolleyes:

    *sigh*
    Let's break this down for you.

    Only a man and a woman can make children. Yes, that's a fact.
    Some people say there shouldn't be gay marriage, as marriage is for raising children.

    By that logic, explain to me why sterile people or the elderly can marry - they can't have kids, and marriage is for children (apparently).


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    #137
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    spikethedog wrote: »
    Who's stopping anyone getting married?

    Oh good. So when same sex marriage is put up for a referendum you would be in support? Great!


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    #138
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    Daith wrote: »
    It's the only tactic that opponents to same sex marriage rights seem to have. That marriage = children.

    Marriage won't = children if it's same sex.
    Adopt, yes. Create, no.


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    #139
    dd972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭dd972


    It gives off the vibe that every smug twat you know that's married has chipped in some dosh to make this


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    #140
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    KamiKazeKitten wrote: »
    *sigh*
    Let's break this down for you.

    Only a man and a woman can make children. Yes, that's a fact.
    Some people say there shouldn't be gay marriage, as marriage is for raising children.

    By that logic, explain to me why sterile people or the elderly can marry - they can't have kids, and marriage is for children (apparently).

    Anyone can get married, doesn't bother me.
    These people, and I wouldn't agree with all they put out there, are entitled to state their position. End of.


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    #141
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    Daith wrote: »
    Oh good. So when same sex marriage is put up for a referendum you would be in support? Great!

    Probably wouldn't bother voting.
    Doesn't affect me one way or the other.


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    #142
    KamiKazeKitten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭KamiKazeKitten


    spikethedog wrote: »
    Anyone can get married, doesn't bother me.
    These people, and I wouldn't agree with all they put out there, are entitled to state their position. End of.

    Ah right, well you understand what I was saying now.
    Yup, they are. And I'm entitled to think their position is BS. End of.


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    #143
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,158 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    I had an argument with someone a few nights ago. It was on a similar subject. When I pointed out holes in their argument I was told "Well, I'm allowed to have my opinion and I should be allowed to do do so without being judged"
    I asked if they'd judge a racist or is the racist allowed hold their opinions without anyone criticising them. Any opinion can and should be criticised.

    The opinions expressed in the video the OP posted were discriminatory and bigoted. They are an expression of an dated time when homosexuals were evil and women knew their place.

    I would like to think that Ireland in 2013 will be a more inclusive society that doesn't discriminate on the basis of gender, sexuality or race. But unfortunately I think there are more than enough backwards people who have no problems preventing certain segments from enjoying the same freedoms as everyone else.

    If people want to hold those views, fine. But they should also accept that in restricting the freedoms of others, they are discriminating against someone based on gender with no practical reasoning.

    I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm willing to bet that most people arguing against gay marriage have not actually stated that all gay people are unfit parents or unfit spouses. They have not at any point actually stated how allowing two people to commit to each other is a bad thing. And rather than defending their opinion, they will defend their right to have an opinion.

    They could at least be honest and say that their opinions have no factual basis, they are in fact just anti gay. At least then they'd be honest bigots.


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    #144
    scullersky
    Registered Users Posts: 529 ✭✭✭scullersky


    I have only see this and im disgusted.

    Im a 22 yr old gay guy..

    Not discrimination my ars*

    i mean like I though things were changing a bit and this.. What plannet are they on..

    This is so insulting...

    Ugggggg !!!


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    #145
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    spikethedog wrote: »
    Marriage won't = children if it's same sex.
    Adopt, yes. Create, no.

    Gay marriage means gay people raising a child and that's bad. That seems to be their only tactic against marriage rights extended to same sex couples.
    spikethedog wrote: »
    Probably wouldn't bother voting.
    Doesn't affect me one way or the other.

    You just said that no one is "stopping you from get married". Except you would if you didn't vote.


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    #146
    Sinfonia
    Registered Users Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭Sinfonia


    Sinfonia wrote: »
    First, the statement you quoted and the statement you gave don't mean the same thing.
    spikethedog wrote: »
    What?
    efb wrote: »
    Best taken care of by a father and a mother- not factually true
    spikethedog wrote: »
    "Only a man and a woman can make new life" FACT.
    Whether or not a child is best taken care of by a father and a mother bears no relation to the idea that only a man and a woman can make new life.
    Sinfonia wrote:
    Second, why is that a reason to be allowed or disallowed to marry?
    spikethedog wrote:
    and

    Who's stopping anyone getting married?
    The State is stopping same-sex couples from getting married.
    The supporters of that are using (in this video) the argument that because only a man and a woman can make new life, only opposite-sex couples should be allowed to marry; this doesn't make any sense, as marriage and rearing a child are not the same thing, nor are they necessarily linked to one another.


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    #147
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    It always confuses me when I come up against people my age (30) and younger who are homophobic/ heterosexist. It's the same reaction I have when I meet racist people. Its like my brain just can't compute the mentality that causes people to think that one kind of skin is better than another, or that one kind of love is better. Or that one kind of love can somehow make the other kind less real. How on earth does my loving my girlfriend of 9 years make your marriage 'less'?

    Fact is, there are same sex couples all over te world who have been together for ears and years, and who are already raising children, paying taxes, minding their elderly parents, and the world hasn't exploded. Legislating for something that pretty much already exists won't somehow make everything different, except that people's individual rights are being acknowledged. How is that bad?


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    #148
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    spikethedog wrote: »
    Probably wouldn't bother voting.
    Doesn't affect me one way or the other.

    It might affect your son or daughter though.


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    #149
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    Grayson wrote: »
    I had an argument with someone a few nights ago. It was on a similar subject. When I pointed out holes in their argument I was told "Well, I'm allowed to have my opinion and I should be allowed to do do so without being judged"
    I asked if they'd judge a racist or is the racist allowed hold their opinions without anyone criticising them. Any opinion can and should be criticised.

    The opinions expressed in the video the OP posted were discriminatory and bigoted. They are an expression of an dated time when homosexuals were evil and women knew their place.

    I would like to think that Ireland in 2013 will be a more inclusive society that doesn't discriminate on the basis of gender, sexuality or race. But unfortunately I think there are more than enough backwards people who have no problems preventing certain segments from enjoying the same freedoms as everyone else.

    If people want to hold those views, fine. But they should also accept that in restricting the freedoms of others, they are discriminating against someone based on gender with no practical reasoning.

    I haven't read the whole thread, but I'm willing to bet that most people arguing against gay marriage have not actually stated that all gay people are unfit parents or unfit spouses. They have not at any point actually stated how allowing two people to commit to each other is a bad thing. And rather than defending their opinion, they will defend their right to have an opinion.

    They could at least be honest and say that their opinions have no factual basis, they are in fact just anti gay. At least then they'd be honest bigots.

    Again, how are they restricting the freedom of others?
    They're stating their position.


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    #150
    Sinfonia
    Registered Users Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭Sinfonia


    spikethedog wrote: »
    Anyone can get married, doesn't bother me.
    These people, and I wouldn't agree with all they put out there, are entitled to state their position. End of.

    So what? That goes without saying; if people here disagreed with the idea of entitlement to state ones political position, they wouldn't be posting here.

    The argument in this thread isn't about freedom of speech.


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    #151
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    spikethedog wrote: »
    Probably wouldn't bother voting.
    Doesn't affect me one way or the other.

    But it does affect other people. The status quo does prevent people marrying, it does restrict their status as members of Irish society just because of who they are, and it does put their families in vulnerable positions.

    So pretending it's a-okay the way it is, is a discriminatory position, because "the way it is" is discriminatory - it punishes a particular group and imposes unnecessary difficulties on their lives, for no valid reason whatsoever.


This discussion has been closed.
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