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Dessie Ellis - The Sinn Fein TD who is linked to 50 murders

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    #122
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Responding to remarks this evening by Fine Gael TD Charlie Flanagan, Sinn Féin Dublin North West TD Dessie Ellis said:

    “It is interesting that Fine Gael's Charlie Flanagan places such importance on the unsubstantiated claims of British intelligence – the same shadowy forces who murdered so many Irish citizens over the years.

    “I'm sure that it hasn't escaped Deputy Flanagan's attention that I was cleared by a British court of these trumped up allegations which begs the question as to where he is coming from.

    “Mr Flanagan mentions without any hint of irony the need for an Independent Truth & Reconciliation Commission despite the fact that it is Sinn Féin who have led such calls and despite the fact that Mr Flanagan's government has done nothing at all to support the establishment of such a process.

    “I enthusiastically support the establishment of an Independent International Truth and Reconciliation Commission to deal with the legacy of conflict in Ireland. I hope Charlie Flanagan will follow up his new found support for such a process with positive action to pressurize his colleagues in government to act on this.

    “Finally, let me say that I am very proud of my involvement in the republican struggle over the years and of the leadership role republicans have played in the peace process, despite the best efforts of nay-sayers such as Charlie Flanagan and his ilk.”


    So he was cleared by a British court.... An IRA man cleared with the deck stacked against him... good enough for me


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    #123
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,472 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    GRMA wrote: »

    So he was cleared by a British court.... An IRA man cleared with the deck stacked against him... good enough for me

    Are you familiar with the court case? If so, you should be well aware that his entire defence was based upon exploiting a loophole within the British legal system. You can read up on the case here.

    Also, aren't you not aware that Ellis has himself publicly admitted that he was a prominent bomb-maker for the IRA? Yet now he claims that he has no blood on his hands?


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    #124
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    GRMA wrote: »
    So he was cleared by a British court.... An IRA man cleared with the deck stacked against him... good enough for me

    What was he charged with? Was it possession of explosives?


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    #125
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    What was he charged with? Was it possession of explosives?
    He was jailed in Ireland for explosives stuff... he was then extradited after a hunger strike to england where he was tried for murder I think, or conspiracy to cause explosions, and was acquitted.


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    #126
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    GRMA wrote: »
    He was jailed in Ireland for explosives stuff... he was then extradited after a hunger strike to england where he was tried for murder I think, and was acquitted.

    On a technicality or was his innocence proved?


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    #127
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Fattes wrote: »
    It is at very worst highly likely, was Martin McGuinness on the Army council again highly likely is there anyone out there that believes otherwise even when they are lying through their teeth probably not.

    Much and all as I have little time for Sinn Fein McGuinness has never denied he was involved with the IRA, of all of them he appears to be the most open to admitting it.
    murphaph wrote: »
    If there isn't, I'd like to see one introduced. I don't think anybody convicted of any crime should be allowed to stand as a candidate. I mean, where do you draw the line? Bomb making? Rape? Murder? We've enough problems with corrupt carry on from people who haven't been convicted of crimes to have to worry about criminals as well IMO.

    The irony is that if you are declared bankrupt you cannot remain or be elected as a TD, yet you can spend years in prison for criminal offences and be elected
    MadsL wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/sinn-fein-denies-murder-claims-3338202.html

    Well, well.

    I suspect in the full knowledge that one will never occur.

    Haleys comet will reappear before it would be over.


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    #128
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    GRMA wrote: »
    He was jailed in Ireland for explosives stuff... he was then extradited after a hunger strike to england where he was tried for murder I think, or conspiracy to cause explosions, and was acquitted.

    So he was not charged or cleared of murder?


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    #129
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Are you familiar with the court case? If so, you should be well aware that his entire defence was based upon exploiting a loophole within the British legal system. You can read up on the case here.

    Also, aren't you not aware that Ellis has himself publicly admitted that he was a prominent bomb-maker for the IRA? Yet now he claims that he has no blood on his hands?
    Hardly a loophole. If someone is extradited to stand trial for a certain charge then that is the charge they should face.


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    #130
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,472 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    What was he charged with? Was it possession of explosives?

    Conspiracy to cause explosions alongside possession of explosive substances with intent. Ellis argued that under the then legislation under which he was charged, the CPS had no jurisdiction - as he was not physically within England at the time of the offence. The CPS then wished to alter the charge to overcome the loophole, however as he was extradited under a different pretence the case was dropped.

    It was a technicality. Anyone who is trying to portray otherwise is not exactly up to speed with the case - or else they are trying to rewrite history, and there are many out there intent on ensuring SF do not rewrite history. It is well known that Ellis was one of the kingpin bomb-makers within the IRA. This has been openly admitted by Ellis and others within the IRA. To claim that his bombs did not kill people is ludicrous. It is not acceptable for SF to try and rewrite history now that it does not neatly fit in with their new political aspirations.


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    #131
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    So he was not charged or cleared of murder?
    Nowhere is it alleged that he is a murderer? But that he is "linked" to murders, ie perhaps made bombs.


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    #132
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    GRMA wrote: »
    Nowhere is it alleged that he is a murderer? But that he is "linked" to murders, ie perhaps made bombs.

    :confused: So there is a TD who has alleged links to more murders then the Manson family, to bombings in England which killed civilians like children, OAPs and adults?? And SF are happy about that?


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    #133
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    :confused: So there is a TD who has alleged links to more murders then the Manson family, to bombings in England which killed civilians like children, OAPs and adults?? And SF are happy about that?
    Alleged by whom? British security services who have made up umpteen things over the years, started wars over their "allegations" and murdered countless Irish civilians - and their allegations about Dessie were not even concrete enough to stand up in court or to bring new charges about!


    And you believe these allegations? Why? Because, like FG, it satisfies your agenda?


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    #134
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    GRMA wrote: »
    Nowhere is it alleged that he is a murderer? But that he is "linked" to murders, ie perhaps made bombs.
    Only 50 instances of conspiracy to commit murder!
    That's ok then.


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    #135
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    GRMA wrote: »
    So he was cleared by a British court.... An IRA man cleared with the deck stacked against him... good enough for me
    What about the conviction he received in our country though?


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    #136
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    :confused: So there is a TD who has alleged links to more murders then the Manson family, to bombings in England which killed civilians like children, OAPs and adults?? And SF are happy about that?

    More to the point, the electorate seem happy about it. Or are in blissful ignorance.

    I believe the forensic evidence is his fingerprints on the bombs.


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    #137
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    GRMA wrote: »
    Alleged by whom? British security services who have made up umpteen things over the years, started wars over their "allegations" and murdered countless Irish civilians - and their allegations about Dessie were not even concrete enough to stand up in court or to bring new charges about!


    And you believe these allegations? Why? Because, like FG, it satisfies your agenda?

    Sorry GRMA, but your tone reminds me of fanatical Bertie Ahern defenders. If SF can accuse other TDs of corruption over health centres without evidence last week, then fifty murders can simply not be cast aside like what is happening given the reaction of SF today.
    :eek:


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    #138
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    NufcNavan wrote: »
    I love how every political party in the Dail has had members at some point that killed people.

    How many have members now accused of killing people, sitting right now? Not decades ago, but now?


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    #139
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,472 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    GRMA wrote: »
    Alleged by whom? British security services who have made up umpteen things over the years, started wars over their "allegations" and murdered countless Irish civilians - and their allegations about Dessie were not even concrete enough to stand up in court or to bring new charges about!


    And you believe these allegations? Why? Because, like FG, it satisfies your agenda?

    . . . but Ellis has already admitted being involved in the bomb making process. Yet you don't think it is reasonable to suggest that he has been linked to any killings through the use of those bombs?


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    #140
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    How come the British or Irish courts never tried him over it, if they had such great evidence? He served time for what he did, 10 years and suffered greatly on Hunger Strike. He has built up an exemplary record over the past decades as a community activist and representative.


    Fact remains that Dessie Elllis was a major player in the peace process and has left his IRA activity long behind him... is that not a good thing?


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    #141
    NufcNavan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭NufcNavan


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    How many have members now accused of killing people, sitting right now? Not decades ago, but now?
    I'd imagine SF are, but that is deflecting from the point that every party has blood on their hands. Just because SF do in more recent times doesn't negate the fact that FF/FG were both set up by people who murdered other people.


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    #142
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    GRMA wrote: »
    How come the British or Irish courts never tried him over it, if they had such great evidence? He served time for what he did, 10 years and suffered greatly on Hunger Strike. He has built up an exemplary record over the past decades as a community activist and representative.


    Fact remains that Dessie Elllis was a major player in the peace process and has left his IRA activity long behind him... is that not a good thing?

    I don't see the likes of Shane O'Doherty running for public office.


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    #143
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    . . . but Ellis has already admitted being involved in the bomb making process. Yet you don't think it is reasonable to suggest that he has been linked to any killings through the use of those bombs?
    I dont believe anything rags like the Indo cme out with or the British security services do.


    IMO if someone was a member of the IRA then they were a member and they worked towards a common goal and fought a common enemy in the same war


    Whether or not you think that was a good thing is another matter.

    I don't care what they did individually really I dont see how it really matters what individual members of the IRA did, fact is they were in the IRA.


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    #144
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    NufcNavan wrote: »
    I love how every political party in the Dail has had members at some point that killed people.

    err.... bring back the Greens?


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    #145
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    GRMA wrote: »
    I dont believe anything rags like the Indo cme out with or the British security services do.


    IMO if someone was a member of the IRA then they were a member and they worked towards a common goal and fought a common enemy in the same war


    Whether or not you think that was a good thing is another matter.

    I don't care what they did individually really I dont see how it really matters what individual members of the IRA did, fact is they were in the IRA.

    So there is no difference between someone killing children in England with a bomb and someone shooting a soldier in Nothern Ireland in the early Seventies?


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    #146
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    NufcNavan wrote: »
    I'd imagine SF are, but that is deflecting from the point that every party has blood on their hands. Just because SF do in more recent times doesn't negate the fact that FF/FG were both set up by people who murdered other people.

    :confused: Are you for real?? History as a justification??


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    #147
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    So there is no difference between someone killing children in England with a bomb and someone shooting a soldier in Nothern Ireland in the early Seventies?
    No, what I am getting at is that there is a degree of collective responsibility.


    Which I think most people accept... Dessie was in the IRA... the IRA did x.... what year are we in again? Nearly 2013? Could have sworn it was the late 80s


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    #148
    NufcNavan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭NufcNavan


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    :confused: Are you for real?? History as a justification??
    I haven't tried to justify anything.


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    #149
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    GRMA wrote: »
    No, what I am getting at is that there is a degree of collective responsibility.


    Which I think most people accept... Dessie was in the IRA... the IRA did x.... what year are we in again? Nearly 2013? Could have sworn it was the late 80s

    I accept that. But he is a sitting TD. That is why this is in this forum.


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    #150
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    I accept that. But he is a sitting TD. That is why this is in this forum.
    So? Everyone knew he was a former IRA member when they voted for him, he never pretended otherwise and is very open about being in the IRA


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    #151
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    GRMA wrote: »
    So? Everyone knew he was a former IRA member when they voted for him, he never pretended otherwise and is very open about being in the IRA

    Not everyone.


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