Dessie Ellis - The Sinn Fein TD who is linked to 50 murders

oscarBravo

maccored wrote: »

so you have an issue with all conflicts and wars etc? Thats a bit more general than what this is all about.

I have an issue with terrorism, as a rule.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

So the IRA thought they could terrorise the British into doing what they wanted? The IRA thought they could out-terrorise a recently deposed Empire and major military force? Such delightful naivety. The IRA were well aware they could only hope to remove the British by turning the 'Irish problem' into an economic and political hot potato not by out terrorising the BA.

And after thirty years of terrorism, Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom. So not only was their terrorism morally wrong, it didn't work. Bra-frigging-vo.

Who was terrorising who? The most afraid people in the north and most likely to be ethnically cleansed were Catholics/Nationalists. The Unionist junta did little to stop so-called loyalists from burning them out of their homes.

If you look at the numbers of killings attributed to Republicans ~35% were civilians, of the BA killings ~50% civilian, and loyalists (who the British/Unionists colluded with) had an 85% civilian kill rate. Who was terrorising who?

And all that makes the IRA not terrorists, how exactly?

Your 'terrorist bomb' phrase is ridiculous fucking nonsense and abuse of the English language.

Why? If there's a phrase that better describes a bomb that's built by terrorists and detonated by terrorists for the purposes of terrorism, can you provide it?

Or is this merely the usual "it's not terrorism to blow up small children if you claim afterwards that you didn't mean to" revisionist tripe?

I doubt it. I'm guessing that when people sign up to join a paramilitary group they know they're not going out to chase butterflies with a net.

Right: so Dessie Ellis made bombs that he knew perfectly well would quite likely be used to murder his fellow human beings, and all the arm-waving in the world about how he didn't know what the bombs he was making would be used for won't change that.

Terrorist, torrorist, turrurist. See above. Who was terrorising who?

In the context of this discussion, Dessie Ellis was terrorising the victims (and potential victims) of the bombs he built.

I'm not so naive to subscribe to your cognitively limited 'Cowboys and Indians' caricatures of the actors who used violence (terrorism) in the north.

It's pretty easy to refuse to subscribe to caricatures that you've invented on my behalf. It's also pretty hypocritical to reject the label of "terrorist" for the IRA while liberally applying it to others.

Because bombs are only used to kill people. We've covered this. The IRA's bombs were primarily used to disrupt and destroy the economy of the north and to a lesser extent Britain.

Every single bomb planted by the IRA carried the risk of death. Every single bomb was planted in that knowledge, and with acceptance of the risk that people would die as a result. Therefore every single bomb was built, transported, planted and detonated by people who were prepared to kill other people by their actions.

You can dance around that with the pathetic whine of "but they didn't really mean to hurt anyone" to your own heart's content, but don't expect me to buy it.

Democracy was attempted. Non violent civil rights was attempted. The civil rights movement was eventually met with lethal force by the British/Unionists. What did you expect people to do? Keep getting shot and burned out of their homes? What would you have done?

I would probably have murdered some innocent children in Manchester. Not because I'm a bad person, but because there's absolutely no conceivable possibility that there's any way whatsoever that any possible improvement in the political situation of northern nationalists could possibly have been achieved by anything other than blowing buildings and people up.

At least, that seems to be the republican narrative, and heaven forbid anyone should deviate from it.

The IRA were a fringe element of the northern civil rights issue until people were murdered en masse by those they were asking to treat them fairly.

And it makes perfect sense to assume that the British government would have continued to gun down civil rights marchers for three decades without repercussions had the IRA not bravely intervened and made Northern Ireland a paradise on earth.

I have trouble getting my head around the mental gymnastics required to believe that republican terrorism made Northern Ireland a better place for anyone.

southsiderosie

gaffer91 wrote: »

Obviously it's no surprise to that a SF member was a thuggish terrorist hood, but linked to 50 murders is really astounding. Would have no doubt there's a few civilians in there as well.

Hope the people of Dublin North-West remember he has blood on his hands come the next election.

MOD NOTE:

That's a rather large brush that you are tarring all SF members with. Please try to avoid sweeping generalizations like this.

For everyone else: I know that this is an emotive topic, but please let's try to keep things civil.

Chuck Stone

oscarBravo wrote: »

And after thirty years of terrorism, Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom. So not only was their terrorism morally wrong, it didn't work. Bra-frigging-vo.

Who's terrorism? Are you against terrorism or just against 'green' terrorism? You've completely ignored the statistics and continue to pursue the narrative that 'they' were the turrurists.

And all that makes the IRA not terrorists, how exactly? Why? If there's a phrase that better describes a bomb that's built by terrorists and detonated by terrorists for the purposes of terrorism, can you provide it?

Again you fail to consider who was being terrorised and apply your myopic label to one source of terrorism with zero regard for context.

Right: so Dessie Ellis made bombs that he knew perfectly well would quite likely be used to murder his fellow human beings, and all the arm-waving in the world about how he didn't know what the bombs he was making would be used for won't change that.

You've toned it down from your emotive 'innocent childers godblessum' to 'fellow humans'.

In the context of this discussion, Dessie Ellis was terrorising the victims (and potential victims) of the bombs he built.

So 'they' were victims before 'they' got bombed? Good to see you nail your colours to the mast there Mr. Pacifist.

It's pretty easy to refuse to subscribe to caricatures that you've invented on my behalf.

They're your caricatures. A goodies and baddies disneyworld view of the conflict.

It's also pretty hypocritical to reject the label of "terrorist" for the IRA while liberally applying it to others.

You're using the effectively meaningless turrurist word not I.

Every single bomb planted by the IRA carried the risk of death. Every single bomb was planted in that knowledge, and with acceptance of the risk that people would die as a result. Therefore every single bomb was built, transported, planted and detonated by people who were prepared to kill other people by their actions.

Welcome to the nature of every explosive device that was ever used other than for civil engineering on planet Earth. Enjoy your stay.

At least, that seems to be the republican narrative, and heaven forbid anyone should deviate from it. And it makes perfect sense to assume that the British government would have continued to gun down civil rights marchers for three decades without repercussions had the IRA not bravely intervened and made Northern Ireland a paradise on earth.

Keep ploughing the fallow field of non-violence is it? The north wasn't India - there was no inevitability of loss to the Unionists/British until the the IRA concentrated on hurting the British economy (with bombs).

I have trouble getting my head around the mental gymnastics required to believe that republican terrorism made Northern Ireland a better place for anyone.

There you go again.. ignoring who was being terrorised on behalf of who and applying your 'terrorism' label to one 'shade' of violence. Stop trying to present yourself as some sort of pacifist, morally neutral, judge - it's patently obvious you're not.

oscarBravo

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Who's terrorism? Are you against terrorism or just against 'green' terrorism? You've completely ignored the statistics and continue to pursue the narrative that 'they' were the turrurists.

In the context of this thread, the organisation to which Dessie Ellis belonged were the terrorists to whom I'm referring. If there are other terrorists in our national parliament, we can discuss them as well.

Again you fail to consider who was being terrorised and apply your myopic label to one source of terrorism with zero regard for context.

Well, no. I'm participating in a discussion in the context of this thread, which is Dessie Ellis and the terrorist organisation to which he belonged and for which he made bombs. Your attempt to widen the context in order to distract attention from the topic at hand is a fairly transparent "look over there!" tactic.

You've toned it down from your emotive 'innocent childers godblessum' to 'fellow humans'.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Both innocent children and many, many other fellow humans were murdered by the IRA, in which organisation Dessie Ellis played an active part.

So 'they' were victims before 'they' got bombed? Good to see you nail your colours to the mast there Mr. Pacifist.

Again, I'm at a complete loss as to what you're trying to say.

They're your caricatures. A goodies and baddies disneyworld view of the conflict.

Please explain, with relevant quotes from my posts in this thread, who I've caricatured as "goodies" in the Northern Ireland conflict.

You're using the effectively meaningless turrurist word not I.

You're the one trying to pretend that Dessie Ellis wasn't a member of a terrorist organisation. You can mis-spell the word "terrorism" to your heart's content, but pretending that their actions weren't terrorism - particularly when hypocritically describing the actions of others as terrorism - doesn't make the term meaningless.

I get it, I really do: it's easier to be a Sinn Féin supporter if you pretend that the armed organisation they were associated with for years were heroic freedom fighters who only ever killed anyone through tragic accidents, but I'm not a SF supporter, and I don't feel any need to subscribe to that fiction.

Welcome to the nature of every explosive device that was ever used other than for civil engineering on planet Earth. Enjoy your stay.

I don't recall lauding the manufacturers or users of any other types of bombs. Maybe my memory is faulty; feel free once again to quote my posts from this thread where I've said otherwise.

Keep ploughing the fallow field of non-violence is it? The north wasn't India - there was no inevitability of loss to the Unionists/British until the the IRA concentrated on hurting the British economy (with bombs).

Clear this up for me: is it your heartfelt belief that, in the absence of the IRA's campaign of violence, Northern Ireland would continue to have the same civil rights problems that it had in the sixties?

Do you genuinely claim that there was absolutely no way that any civil rights could possibly have been achieved in the absence of a campaign of blowing up shopping centres and police stations?

Because, again, I have a great deal of trouble understanding how anyone could possibly believe that.

There you go again.. ignoring who was being terrorised on behalf of who and applying your 'terrorism' label to one 'shade' of violence.

Well, no - actually, I'm challenging the utterly bizarre belief that the civil rights of nationalists in Northern Ireland could only have been achieved by the IRA's campaign of violence (which you've basically asserted).

Stop trying to present yourself as some sort of pacifist, morally neutral, judge - it's patently obvious you're not.

I solemnly promise you that if a convicted loyalist terrorist ever presents himself for election in my constituency, I won't vote for him either.

Cavehill Red

spikethedog wrote: »

A convicted IRA man, now a politician here was involved in the troubles in the north. Shock, horror!!!
In other news, the sun rose again this morning and it might rain today!

Any documents released on Eamon Gilmore's connection to the workers party and the OIRA around the same time?

Unfortunately the Kremlin does not operate the same 30 year rule.

markesmith

To the Irish/Sunday Independent: How do you feel about Tito's work in Yugoslavia pre-1945? Murder? How about Mandela? George Washington? Republicans in Spain, Garibaldi, the guerillas in Algeria, even the folk of 1798 and 1916, even the original Fianna Fail generation?

This was a political issue; an occupying power oppressing an ethnic minority who laid at least some claim to the land.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

While the relationship of some public figures with the IRA has been a matter of public debate for some time (and is therefore fair game for this forum), the accusations of the murder of specific individuals is potentially libelous. Please do not present accusations as fact on this forum - if that is a fight you want to pick, this website is not the place to do it.

Posts deleted. If you have questions, PM me - do not reply on-thread.

RobFowl

markesmith wrote: »

To the Irish/Sunday Independent: How do you feel about Tito's work in Yugoslavia pre-1945? Murder? How about Mandela? George Washington? Republicans in Spain, Garibaldi, the guerillas in Algeria, even the folk of 1798 and 1916, even the original Fianna Fail generation?

This was a political issue; an occupying power oppressing an ethnic minority who laid at least some claim to the land.

Suppose the difference is that these murders happened in very recent living memory.
I've seen people shot dead in the troubles and believe me those memories don't leave you.
I have some respect for Mary Lou Mcdonald, Pearse Doherty and a few other shinners but for the life of me can't understand why we as a country vote for the likes of Ellis.
When he and his peers have gone from public life our Country and our Island will be a better place.

Chips Lovell

One of the things a lot of people forget about the IRA was that if, through some bizarre miracle, they'd overthrown British rule in Northern Ireland, they would have come for us next. They didn't believe our country was legitimate either and were intent on overthrowing the Irish state as well.

Gosub

There's a lot of talk in this thread about bomb makers having blood on their hands. I think a bit of perspective is called for. There are people today making bombs that are killing civilians. They are even paid for their efforts. They are called munitions workers. Their bombs are killing innocent children in Afghanistan. David Cameron is busy selling killing machines around the world. Obama employs bomb makers etc etc.

Should all of these people be charged with murder? Are they all terrorists? Maybe they are. If this is the type of society we find acceptable we cannot jump on our high horse and rail on about individuals because it suits our politics.

Either condemn every arms worker and war-mongering government, or condemn none.

Just to make my position clear: I am not a SF supporter. I have never had any links to the IRA. I am simply a victim of sectarian hatred and abuse in the past.

Please can we let this petty abuse of one of our elected citizens grind to a halt.

I know this plea will fall on deaf ears because we still have a lot of hatred and prejudice buried deep in peoples hearts. The conflict in my country will not be finished until this fades. For the sake of progress... let it go.

Cavehill Red

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

One of the things a lot of people forget about the IRA was that if, through some bizarre miracle, they'd overthrown British rule in Northern Ireland, they would have come for us next. They didn't believe our country was legitimate either and were intent on overthrowing the Irish state as well.

Take a look in the Dail. They're already there. I never have and never will vote for Sinn Fein, but the idea that the 26 county republic is some sort of shining beacon of success is probably the most risible result of partitionist mindsets.
Did you miss the 80 years of child rape gulags, economic devastation, the live export of people and the shame of holding benefit concerts for the nation?
Sinn Fein are correct in asserting that the Irish state as currently formulated is unfit for purpose. They are perfectly entitled to offer an alternative of their own. The way some people get on in this thread, you'd think they preferred the days when Republicans did their arguing with armalites.

RobFowl

Gosub wrote: »

Please can we let this petty abuse of one of our elected citizens grind to a halt.

I know this plea will fall on deaf ears because we still have a lot of hatred and prejudice buried deep in peoples hearts. The conflict in my country will not be finished until this fades. For the sake of progress... let it go.

I suspose the fact that we can "abuse" him without fear of violent retaliation is a measure of progress to some extent.

I for one though no matter how much I disagree with some one else will never support killing them, Ellis and his fellow travelers have come from a different perspective.

mathepac

MadsL wrote: »

... Err. Excuse me, the electorate might want some explanation...

I doubt the electorate is foolish enough to want an explanation as to why the Sindo would waste so many trees and ink on a single. unattributed and unsubstantiated statement -
"We understand that Ellis is linked by forensic evidence to some 50 murders in Northern Ireland and the Republic." If that's all they have well good luck to them in the Four Goldmines.

As for the excitable Sindo / Sun / Star / "Nice one guv'nor, you've got me bang to rights you 'ave" crew well nothing surprises me; they seem to have difficulty distinguishing between real life and the plot of Coronation St.

Gosub

RobFowl wrote: »

I suspose the fact that we can "abuse" him without fear of violent retaliation is a measure of progress to some extent.

I for one though no matter how much I disagree with some one else will never support killing them, Ellis and his fellow travelers have come from a different perspective.

I suppose by "his fellow travelers" you meanThe British government, the US government, all governments that go to war. Even the patriots that fought and died to bring about our freedom from British rule? If a person slaughtered your entire family, would you wish the death penalty for them? Where do you draw the line.... and why?

Rascasse

mathepac wrote: »

I doubt the electorate is foolish enough to want an explanation as to why the Sindo would waste so many trees and ink on a single. unattributed and unsubstantiated statement -
"We understand that Ellis is linked by forensic evidence to some 50 murders in Northern Ireland and the Republic." If that's all they have well good luck to them in the Four Goldmines.

Err, it is attributed; it's from a Telex from an official in the US back to the FCO in London about the need to make sure he is returned to Europe and not Canada. The Indo are in no fear of being sued.

It would have been better if they had scanned the telex and uploaded it like the UK press have done with some of the Falklands and Savile documents.

Poor Dessie Mandela.

votecounts

So we are to beleive some british government scumbag( using this word as its been used here with no penalty) about forensics. Maybe Mr Ellis was playing cards as was the case with the guildford four and we all know how that worked out, short memories.Being irish means you're guilty.

dvpower

votecounts wrote: »

So we are to beleive some british government scumbag( using this word as its been used here with no penalty) about forensics. Maybe Mr Ellis was playing cards as was the case with the guildford four and we all know how that worked out, short memories.

Mr. Ellis openly admits his membership of the IRA and was convicted on explosives charges in this jurisdiction.
I don't think anyone, but you, think he was some kind of innocent bystander, being fitted up by the Brit's, more that they don't see the point of dragging up the past.

The Waltzing Consumer

votecounts wrote: »

So we are to beleive some british government scumbag( using this word as its been used here with no penalty) about forensics. Maybe Mr Ellis was playing cards as was the case with the guildford four and we all know how that worked out, short memories.Being irish means you're guilty.

As people have said in this discussion, Dessie Ellis has admitted being a member of the provisionals and involved in the bomb making process.

So that gives a clear difference between him and the guildford four and there is no comparison.

mathepac

Rascasse wrote: »

Err, it is attributed; it's from a Telex from an official in the US back to the FCO in London about the need to make sure he is returned to Europe and not Canada. The Indo are in no fear of being sued. ...

Why the need in this thread to start typed sentences with what sounds like a speech-impediment? Is this de rigeur in order to be seen as being "home with the Downeys" or somesuch or has it developed from too much reading of the Beano / Dandy / Sindo / Sun / Star / Mail?

A FO / HO lie communicated to the State Department, repeated on a State Department telex back to the FO isn't evidence of anything and doesn't make the original lie true. It's one of the oldest ploys in smear campaigns to protect the press and to mimic attribution and validity in a dirty tricks campaign.

Why would such a telex be released? FOI request? If so why that specific SF TD as the target, why not do down Marty or Gerry? Why now?

It's all very odd with Inda the Idiot and the like clinging to power by their finger-nails hoping for th' oul' pinsin.

Rascasse

And, I'll make the point again, this is a secret message from one British official to another that he would never have expected to have been made public (nor would have he have expected Ellis to become a TD). So the "50 murders" claim can reasonably be believed as there are no grounds for him to lie.

spikethedog

mathepac wrote: »

Why the need in this thread to start typed sentences with what sounds like a speech-impediment? Is this de rigeur in order to be seen as being "home with the Downeys" or somesuch or has it developed from too much reading of the Beano / Dandy / Sindo / Sun / Star / Mail?

A FO / HO lie communicated to the State Department, repeated on a State Department telex back to the FO isn't evidence of anything and doesn't make the original lie true. It's one of the oldest ploys in smear campaigns to protect the press and to mimic attribution and validity in a dirty tricks campaign.

Why would such a telex be released? FOI request? If so why that specific SF TD as the target, why not do down Marty or Gerry? Why now?

It's all very odd with Inda the Idiot and the like clinging to power by their finger-nails hoping for th' oul' pinsin.

They're using that and a suicide to deflect from the real issues at hand.
Sad, but that's FG for you.

dvpower

mathepac wrote: »

Why would such a telex be released? FOI request? If so why that specific SF TD as the target, why not do down Marty or Gerry? Why now?

You should probably read the newspaper article linked in the OP for the background information.

The Waltzing Consumer

spikethedog wrote: »

They're using that and a suicide to deflect from the real issues at hand.

Such as??

dvpower

spikethedog wrote: »

They're using that and a suicide to deflect from the real issues at hand.
Sad, but that's FG for you.

How are you linking the release of these British state papers to FG?

murphaph

votecounts wrote: »

So we are to beleive some british government scumbag( using this word as its been used here with no penalty) about forensics. Maybe Mr Ellis was playing cards as was the case with the guildford four and we all know how that worked out, short memories.Being irish means you're guilty.

I believe they committed those murders in the 70's (G4 & B6). Seems every IRA bomb maker is also a keen cards player :rolleyes:

guinnessdrinker

I just wonder how much faith should we have in British "intelligence".

dvpower

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

I just wonder how much faith should we have in British "intelligence".

We certainly wouldn't want to rely on it fully. Maybe we could just ask Dessie Ellis to comment on it.

Indo wrote:

Irish Independent (II): "We're doing a story because, as you're probably
aware, there's a 30-year rule for state papers. The British state papers from
1982 have been released and they talk about the time you were arrested in the
United States. The British embassy in Washington were trying to have you
extradited. They were claiming that you were involved in 50 murders. I just
wanted to give you an opportunity to comment before the story runs."


Dessie Ellis (DE): "Well, I have no comment on it, you know. I don't know
what they're talking about anyhow."


II: "I know you've spoken before about your time in the IRA. Would 50 murders
be an exaggeration?"

DE: "I don't know what they're on about so I'm not going to comment on it,
you know."

II: "Do you know if any of the bombs you made resulted in deaths?"

DE: "I'm not going to comment on anything in relation to anything that people
are speculating on, okay?"

So much for that.

mathepac

dvpower wrote: »

You should probably read the newspaper article linked in the OP for the background information.

Thanks but I have no confidence in the Sindo to enlighten me. They'll print any auld guff that'll generate a sale. It's a shame that my skepticism (cynicism?) has reached such depths, but it's based on first hand experiences a number of years ago with the yellow press, the Sindo and old Sunday Business Post in particular and with the disturbance and heart-break caused by a camera crew at a funeral a couple of years ago. Vile, heartless creatures with no consciences.

Ghandee

dvpower wrote: »

We certainly wouldn't want to rely on it fully. Maybe we could just ask Dessie Ellis to comment on it.



So much for that.

Dessie Ellis doesn't want to respond or comment on a document released by a foreign govt, about something that allegedly happened thirty years ago, is that right?