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Dessie Ellis - The Sinn Fein TD who is linked to 50 murders

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    #92
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    bluecode wrote: »
    Nonsense, pure propaganda. Go and read the history. In the end, irony of ironies. It was the British army that came to protect those people. The IRA were nowhere. I Ran Away was the joke.

    Plus for an organisation that styled themselves protectors of the Irish people. They killed an awful lot of us.

    The more I read stuff like I'm seeing on this thread the more I realise we Irish have learned nothing. There is a whole younger generation out there who never went through the troubles and are now inclined to see it as some kind of heroic episode rather the sordid bloody slaughter it was.

    What nonsense. The British army were against the Irish people. After the falls road curfew in particular they were never again welcome.

    The PIRA were the only people who protected nationalists from pogroms etc thats why it was established. Subsequently they identified the removal of Britain from Ireland as the only way for a lasting peace and and end to second class citizenship for nationalists. They were right too

    Shouldnt have been left up to them of course


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    #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    What a dirtbag. At least when they redraw the boundaries I wont have to share my local TD's with the like who vote for individuals such as this.


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    #94
    UDP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,188 ✭✭✭UDP


    bluecode wrote: »
    That comparison is always used as if it was some excuse for the actions of the PIRA. There is no comparison and I very much doubt Mandela would mandate the no warning bombs in crowded streets or any of the other atrocities committed by the PIRA.
    I am not making an excuse for the actions of the PIRA but I am showing the cognitive dissonance displayed by many Irish people who think Mandela is great but those who brought the PIRA from violence to peace are evil murders. Mandela was the leader of a terrorist organisation that killed and tortured many people. The PIRA appeared to have a policy of issuing warnings before bombs exploded which could be seen from the many warnings issued. Whether the RUC passed on the warnings is another story.
    bluecode wrote: »
    There is no excuse for the actions of those people. Ellis has no right to been seen as an honourable man or compared to a leader like Mandela. Only a tiny number of people supported the actions of the IRA at the time.
    I guess this is the cognitive dissonance I am talking about.

    I am not saying Ellis is an honorable man but he is no worse than the likes of Mandela who is held with high regards by hypocrites who continue to condemn ex-PIRA members who brought the IRA from violence to peace.

    I neither support Sinn Fein due to weak policies nor supported PIRA in any way but I do understand why the PIRA existed and accept that if we are to ask the people of Northern Ireland to move on then people in the Republic should not be hypocrites and refuse to do so.


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    #95
    Gosub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭Gosub


    bluecode wrote: »
    Nonsense, pure propaganda. Go and read the history. In the end, irony of ironies. It was the British army that came to protect those people. The IRA were nowhere. I Ran Away was the joke.

    Plus for an organisation that styled themselves protectors of the Irish people. They killed an awful lot of us.

    The more I read stuff like I'm seeing on this thread the more I realise we Irish have learned nothing. There is a whole younger generation out there who never went through the troubles and are now inclined to see it as some kind of heroic episode rather the sordid bloody slaughter it was.
    No, I can't let this post stand!

    I stood and watched the British troops hold back the householders while the loyalist gangs burned the houses on Bombay St. I saw the poor families try to salvage their meagre possessions before their homes fell under the torch. Don't you dare tell me this is propoganda!

    When the British army were brought into the north, they were welcomed as protectors. That didn't last long. The actions of the army made it clear to the Catholic minority that they were there to protect the crown, not the nationalist community.

    There was sordid bloody murder. It was a war and the killers were on both sides. I wonder how many Irish citizens, both north and south, were murdered by the clandestine actions of the British government. I wonder who was really behind the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. It sure wasn't the ill-equipped and disorderly loyalist organisation that ended up carrying the can.

    I have seen a lot of bad stuff over the years, but I am prepared to put it all in the past and move forward. If only everyone would do the same, this would be a better country.


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    #96
    Luca Brasi
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭Luca Brasi


    dvpower wrote: »
    I'd like to know if he was involved in any murders, and of so, what his involvement was?

    He was convicted of the possession of explosives. It doesnt take much to link explosives with bombs. What good is getting specific murder details. If he was making bombs or bomb components in the 70s and 80s its fair to assume that these were subsequently used in explosions.


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    #97
    Luca Brasi
    Registered Users Posts: 300 ✭✭Luca Brasi


    GRMA wrote: »
    What nonsense. The British army were against the Irish people. After the falls road curfew in particular they were never again welcome.

    The PIRA were the only people who protected nationalists from pogroms etc thats why it was established. Subsequently they identified the removal of Britain from Ireland as the only way for a lasting peace and and end to second class citizenship for nationalists. They were right too

    Shouldnt have been left up to them of course





    And the Good Friday Agreement has copperfastened partition and provided permanent Unionist Governement. It was worth the three thousand plus deaths so


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    #98
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    If you say so


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    #99
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Luca Brasi wrote: »
    He was convicted of the possession of explosives. It doesnt take much to link explosives with bombs. What good is getting specific murder details. If he was making bombs or bomb components in the 70s and 80s its fair to assume that these were subsequently used in explosions.
    If there is information linking him to specific bombings to specific victims then that is probably of interest to the victims and to his electorate.

    Would we gloss over any other area of criminality?
    "Sure we know that counciller was involved in planning corruption, but we don't need to know how much he got and who else benefited."
    or
    "That priest raped some kids, but it doesn't really matter who they were"


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    #100
    Rascasse
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭Rascasse


    UDP wrote: »
    I am not making an excuse for the actions of the PIRA but I am showing the cognitive dissonance displayed by many Irish people who think Mandela is great but those who brought the PIRA from violence to peace are evil murders. Mandela was the leader of a terrorist organisation that killed and tortured many people. The PIRA appeared to have a policy of issuing warnings before bombs exploded which could be seen from the many warnings issued. Whether the RUC passed on the warnings is another story.
    ...
    I am not saying Ellis is an honorable man but he is no worse than the likes of Mandela who is held with high regards by hypocrites who continue to condemn ex-PIRA members who brought the IRA from violence to peace.

    Comparing IRA/SF leadership to Mandela/MK/ANC is a popular comparison, but one that doesn't add up. Mandela was locked up after a couple of years of taking up arms and was largely incommunicado. A better comparison with MK would be people like Chris Hani, Joe Slovo and Robert McBride. Also the scale of the attacks committed by MK are nothing compared to the Troubles. In all MK were responsible for a bit over 200 deaths in 30 years. When they found they were killing civilians they would try to change tactics and not plow on regardless .

    The reason many look up to Mandela as one of the greatest statesmen is the way he conducted himself on release. In interviews on the day after he was released he spoke to the white population to reassure them and backed it with his actions in the years following. There's been peace in the north now for what, 15 years? And all have (from both sides) is childish arguing and finger pointing, as exemplified by Ellis' response to the Indo's questions. I'm not suggesting he needed to admit anything, but he could have used words a little more sympathetic or contrite than "I don't want to comment on anything said by the Brits. I wouldn't be bothered.".


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    #101
    freddiek
    Registered Users Posts: 334 ✭✭freddiek


    good man Charlie Flanagan...

    the Brits could always rely on fine gael to do what they asked of them in the 26 counties


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    #102
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    I'll just leave this here. This is Gerry Adams on David Cameron admitting British collusion in Pat Finucane's murder.

    Gerry Adams, the Sinn Féin president and Irish deputy, said: "The information provided by Desmond de Silva is a damning indictment of British state collusion in the murder of citizens. It reveals some of the extent to which this existed. It does not diminish the need for a public inquiry. On the contrary, it makes such an inquiry more necessary than ever."

    It would seem a different story when it comes to the other side of things and then public inquiry is the way to go.

    Us: Not Bothered
    Them: Public Inquiry, dammit.


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    #103
    tipptom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭tipptom


    freddiek wrote: »
    good man Charlie Flanagan...

    the Brits could always rely on fine gael to do what they asked of them in the 26 counties
    Cant wait for the comment fron John Unionist


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    #104
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    Well based on the reaction to this, Sinn Fein are obviously making gains in the "middle classes" as described by the above mod.

    "Middle Classes" meaning educated, right-thinking people. Never think of a "United Ireland", British History in Ireland and is it ok to celebrate blood spilled by the "good IRA" in 1916 but not in 1974 by the "bad IRA".
    26 county rebels so they are, and Charlie Flanagan a proud leader of them.


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    #105
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    Is anyone here actually seriously surprised? In all honesty like? Dessie Ellis was a senior member of the IRA for years, a fact that he never tried to hide from anyone; least of all the people who elected him and voted him in as a councillor in poll after poll since the 1990s. Arthur Morgan and Martin Ferris, were also senior members of the IRA, the latter being especially so. Why has Dessie Ellis' case suddenly become so important when there are numerous other former IRA members currently in Leinster House. Was it a big secret that Sinn Féin and the IRA were connected or something? Are these recent revelations?

    AS for the "not bothered" comment, the British government have no right to comment on clandestine killings in Ireland considering they themselves were behind enough of them. And refuse to admit to them to this day. Even last year Enda Kenny asked Cameron to supply files relating to the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and was basically told to f*ck off. I've no time for Sinn Féin, but Ellis is dead right in taking this attitude toward this particular document.


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    #106
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    FTA69 wrote: »
    AS for the "not bothered" comment, the British government have no right to comment on clandestine killings in Ireland considering they themselves were behind enough of them. And refuse to admit to them to this day. Even last year Enda Kenny asked Cameron to supply files relating to the Dublin/Monaghan bombings and was basically told to f*ck off. I've no time for Sinn Féin, but Ellis is dead right in taking this attitude toward this particular document.

    Would you be in favour of a Truth and Reconciliation process to get these skeletons out of closets?


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    #107
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    MadsL wrote: »
    Would you be in favour of a Truth and Reconciliation process to get these skeletons out of closets?

    As an Irish citizen I'd be delighted to see it but it'll never happen because neither side wants it to. The British will never fully admit their role in Ireland. It took them 40 years to apologise for their troops killing 14 civilians on the streets of Derry, they'll never admit to the likes of colluding with Loyalists as to do so would mean their entire narrative throughout the conflict will be shown to a lie. If they fully disclosed their role in using proxies to murder their own citizens then the "keeping the peace" agenda they propagated will be shown to be nonsense.

    On the other side you can be sure Sinn Féin doesn't want a truth and reconciliation committee because while they're trying to build a political presence in the south, the last thing they need is skeletons from the conflict (and there are many) coming out of the press. Gerry Adams denies he was ever in the IRA, he's done it so long now he can never do otherwise. A truth committee is a good stick Sinn Féin can use to beat the Brits with over collusion, but it will never happen because neither side can afford to have one.


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    #108
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    MadsL wrote: »
    Would you be in favour of a Truth and Reconciliation process to get these skeletons out of closets?

    SF have been calling for one for years.
    I haven't heard much from FG about setting one up until today.
    Maybe there's a lot of skeleton's on both sides.
    I'd love to find out the truth about the Dublin/Monaghan bombings for example.


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    #109
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,056 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    spikethedog wrote: »
    SF have been calling for one for years.
    I haven't heard much from FG about setting one up until today.
    Maybe there's a lot of skeleton's on both sides.
    I'd love to find out the truth about the Dublin/Monaghan bombings for example.

    Of course they would, because they can be safe in the knowledge that its highly unlikely to happen.


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    #110
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Nodin wrote: »
    the electorate may have twigged he was a bit of a republican when they voted for him.
    Indeed. If the people of Dublin North–West want a convicted terrorist representing them in our parliament then that's their right.


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    #111
    Rascasse
    Registered Users Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭Rascasse


    Sully wrote: »

    Of course they would, because they can be safe in the knowledge that its highly unlikely to happen.

    Completely impossible to have a South African style TRC. I suspect what they really want is a blanket amnesty.


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    #112
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Currently MPs are disqualified from Parliament if they are sentenced to a prison term of more than 12 months. Is there any such disbarment from standing as Teachtaí Dála?

    Should there be?


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    #113
    GRMA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,417 ✭✭✭GRMA


    MadsL wrote: »
    Currently MPs are disqualified from Parliament if they are sentenced to a prison term of more than 12 months. Is there any such disbarment from standing as Teachtaí Dála?

    Should there be?
    That was an anti democratic measure brought in to stop hunger strikers like bobby sands from getting elected. That's why his election agent ran after bobby died. It stops people who are in jail from running.


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    #114
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    GRMA wrote: »
    That was an anti democratic measure brought in to stop hunger strikers like bobby sands from getting elected. That's why his election agent ran after bobby died. It stops people who are in jail from running.

    Is there any reason you can think of to keep it in place now?


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    #115
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    MadsL wrote: »
    Should there be?
    If there isn't, I'd like to see one introduced. I don't think anybody convicted of any crime should be allowed to stand as a candidate. I mean, where do you draw the line? Bomb making? Rape? Murder? We've enough problems with corrupt carry on from people who haven't been convicted of crimes to have to worry about criminals as well IMO.


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    #116
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    Sully wrote: »
    Of course they would, because they can be safe in the knowledge that its highly unlikely to happen.

    Is that their fault too?


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    #117
    NufcNavan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭NufcNavan


    Haha. So if you were never convicted of anything then that proves to everyone that you are your typical squeaky clean politician.

    Politics. Gotta love it.


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    #118
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    murphaph wrote: »
    If there isn't, I'd like to see one introduced. I don't think anybody convicted of any crime should be allowed to stand as a candidate. I mean, where do you draw the line? Bomb making? Rape? Murder? We've enough problems with corrupt carry on from people who haven't been convicted of crimes to have to worry about criminals as well IMO.

    Be careful what you wish for.


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    #119
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    murphaph wrote: »
    If there isn't, I'd like to see one introduced. I don't think anybody convicted of any crime should be allowed to stand as a candidate. I mean, where do you draw the line? Bomb making? Rape? Murder? We've enough problems with corrupt carry on from people who haven't been convicted of crimes to have to worry about criminals as well IMO.

    I'd be happy with just one rule in that would boot Lowry out of it! Hopefully the SIPO investigation will eject him.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lowry-may-face-standards-probe-after-380-complaints-3312122.html


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    #120
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    Dessie Ellis wrote:
    "I enthusiastically support the establishment of an Independent International Truth and Reconciliation Commission to deal with the legacy of conflict in Ireland,"
    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/sinn-fein-denies-murder-claims-3338202.html

    Well, well.


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    #121
    spikethedog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 209 ✭✭spikethedog


    MadsL wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/sinn-fein-denies-murder-claims-3338202.html

    Well, well.

    Well, well, what?


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