Dessie Ellis - The Sinn Fein TD who is linked to 50 murders

MadsL

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-sinn-fein-td-who-is-linked-to-50-murders-3337801.html

How long will he dodge resignation by saying he wouldn't be bothered?

"I don't want to comment on anything said by the Brits. I wouldn't be bothered."

Err. Excuse me, the electorate might want some explanation...

Dob74

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-sinn-fein-td-who-is-linked-to-50-murders-3337801.html

How long will he dodge resignation by saying he wouldn't be bothered?

"I don't want to comment on anything said by the Brits. I wouldn't be bothered."

Err. Excuse me, the electorate might want some explanation...

Indo anti Sinn fien agenda. The PIRA killed loads of people , so did the Ira during ttoubles1919 to 1921. People voted for ff and fg down through the years. So I don't see a differents.

The only question is do you think the troubles was politically motivated or not?
I think they where politically motivated.
I am sure most conservative's will think they where not.

Grudaire

So... in 1981 an internal document says he's linked to 50 murders..

Since then he was convicted once in Ireland and acquitted in London..


Everyone already knew of Ellis's IRA links so I think this is a bit of a non-story. Charge and prosecute him, or not!

In the meantime the indo should stop it's pro-FF anti-SF stupidity. They're both shit imo

rainbowdash

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-sinn-fein-td-who-is-linked-to-50-murders-3337801.html

How long will he dodge resignation by saying he wouldn't be bothered?

"I don't want to comment on anything said by the Brits. I wouldn't be bothered."

Err. Excuse me, the electorate might want some explanation...

Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Do you genuinely believe British documents from the 1980's about Irish people are unbiased and fair?

They wrongly pinned the Birmingham six for 21 murders as well around this time, do you airwash over these facts as you seek to find a man guilty of 50 murders without trial?

gurramok

Convict him of murder and then the allegation is true, isn't that the rule of law?

Sunnyisland

Could we not have a unified peace & reconciliation department where all the past murky deeds on all sides can be forgiven or dealt with in some sort of official way,Every year papers are released about secretive Government thinking at the time.

RATM

Cliste wrote: »

So... in 1981 an internal document says he's linked to 50 murders..

Since then he was convicted once in Ireland and acquitted in London..


Everyone already knew of Ellis's IRA links so I think this is a bit of a non-story. Charge and prosecute him, or not!

In the meantime the indo should stop it's pro-FF anti-SF stupidity. They're both shit imo

Not at all- I didn't as I was born when he was an active member and I only just found out the extent of his membership through this article.

It's kind of funny as in July 2011 I applied for a new Passport through the Passport Express system. It's supposed to take 10 days so I allowed 15 before my holidays. 13 days passed and it still hadn't arrived so after several hours of the passport office not answering their phones I started ringing around TD's.

The only one who was of any help was Dessie Ellis. I spoke to him myself and he told me that the Passport Office had told all TD's not to be bothering them with consitiuents inquiries (this is as well as not answering their phones to said inquires) . But Dessie said he had a plan and that he knew someone who had an alternate phone number that would get straight through to a manager's desk. He rang be back in 5 minutes and told me my passport would be posted by 12pm and would be with me the following day.

I've only good things to say about Dessie Ellis as a result, he helped me out of a huge hole and saved my holidays (and saved me wasting €700 on a flight and more on accommodation). I never knew that he was allegedly a bomb maker for the IRA until this article, I'm in a little bit of shock now at finding out. But all I can say is that in my own experience he is a gentleman.

gurramok

RATM wrote: »

Not at all- I didn't as I was born when he was an active member and I only just found out the extent of his membership through this article.

It was well known locally about his past when he first got elected to DCC in 1999 onwards. The attitude on the street in Finglas was that he went through the legal process(served time for any convictions) and largely got elected on local issues rather than the national question.

Grudaire

He's a very good politician who is respected locally. He plays the right game in helping constituents like yourself.

But I think if you try and look up anything online about him, or asked around about him then you would have heard of the links handy enough. I too was born more recently than his actions, but already heard about his PIRA links by the time I was 13!

bnt

rainbowdash wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe British documents from the 1980's about Irish people are unbiased and fair?

Do you genuinely believe that documents about Irish people are biased because they are British?

Do you genuinely believe that all these allegations are the result some anti-Irish sentiment in the UK, and it's only being reported here due to an "anti-Sinn-Fein agenda"? If so, why just this one TD, and not all Sinn Fein TDs?

Chuck Stone

The establishment doesn't want the spotlight shone on it by SF so it tries to deflect its glare by bringing up the conflict.

dvpower

rainbowdash wrote: »

Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Do you genuinely believe British documents from the 1980's about Irish people are unbiased and fair?

They wrongly pinned the Birmingham six for 21 murders as well around this time, do you airwash over these facts as you seek to find a man guilty of 50 murders without trial?

He was proven guilty on explosive charges and no one is saying he is guilty of anything else, just asking him to comment on the papers.
Not unreasonable given that he is a serving TD.

dvpower

Chuck Stone wrote: »

The establishment doesn't want the spotlight shone on it by SF so it tries to deflect its glare by bringing up the conflict.

I thought these were UK papers?

Are you suggesting an international conspiracy?

Chuck Stone

dvpower wrote: »

I thought these were UK papers?

Independent.ie National News in the OP's link?

Are you suggesting an international conspiracy?

Yes. The lizard people want Irish blood - they're enthralled by its greenish hue.

Nodin

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-sinn-fein-td-who-is-linked-to-50-murders-3337801.html

How long will he dodge resignation by saying he wouldn't be bothered?

"I don't want to comment on anything said by the Brits. I wouldn't be bothered."

Err. Excuse me, the electorate might want some explanation...

I'm reasonably sure that (a) Sinn Fein won't want his resignation due to alleged republican activity (b) the electorate may have twigged he was a bit of a republican when they voted for him.

dvpower

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Independent.ie National News in the OP's link?



Yes. The lizard people want Irish blood - they're enthralled by its greenish hue.

I understand. You didn't read the article at all.

The document is one of a large tranche of British government files from 1982
that have been released by the National Archives in London.

Sierra Oscar

No surprise there. Sure it is well established that he was *ahem* 'allegedly' one of the most utilized bomb makers for the IRA.

Cliste wrote: »

He's a very good politician who is respected locally.

Perhaps that is the case. Still doesn't necessarily mean that there is not blood on his hands.

The ironic thing is that figures such as Ellis are adored by the SF party faithful as opposed to other 'blow-ins' who are often viewed with suspicion by the membership. However, it is the very characters such as Ellis and Adams, who are linked to the atrocities of the past, who are holding SF back. This issue represents the greatest challenge for SF into the future. They need to let those who are untainted by the Troubles have a more prominent role in the party. However doing so will likely dissatisfy the core hardcore republican element of the party alongside the Northern Irish wing of the party. I personally feel a split is inevitable down the line if they cannot manage the transition smoothly.

Chuck Stone

dvpower wrote: »

I understand. You didn't read the article at all.

You're not making much sense tbh. The docs are British but the news story is national news (or at least an attempt to make national news).

He declined to comment on the newly released papers from 1982. "No, I won't be saying anything," Mr Ellis told the Irish Independent.

I just did a quick google news search of 'Dessie Ellis' and it appears the only news outlet reporting on these documents is the Irish Independent.

You've brought up UK papers not me.

Fattes

I would be more worried about the current FG senators and TD’S starting the process of censoring the internet, under the cover of protecting mentally unstable people, rather than what happened in the past and has long since been dealt with.

Continent that the Indo are running with stories from long ago rather than dealing with the bigger current issue of the party they financially bank role!

dvpower

Chuck Stone wrote: »

You're not making much sense tbh. The docs are British but the news story is national news (or at least an attempt to make national news).



I just did a quick google news search of 'Dessie Ellis' and it appears the only news outlet reporting on these documents is the Irish Independent.

You've brought up UK papers not me.

The papers that were released were UK Government papers. That is the 'papers' I'm referring to.

You appear to think that a serving TD being linked to 50 murders by the UK government isn't newsworthy and the motive for publishing this news is just down to the 'establishment' deflecting.

Can you see how crazy that sounds?

Fattes

Lads lets be honest, any member of Sinn Fein that was active in the 70’s and 80’s is likely to have been involved in paramilitary activities at some level or other and is likely to have knowledge that could help solve some of the crimes of the period that have gone unanswered.

This is not news to me or a large % of the Irish Public, there are bigger fish out there right now, was Gerry Adams the head of the IRA? It is at very worst highly likely, was Martin McGuinness on the Army council again highly likely is there anyone out there that believes otherwise even when they are lying through their teeth probably not.

Time to move on and deal with the Present and the issues that are in the now not the past, would I ever vote for SF probably not as their economic policies are the stuff of fantasy!

Chuck Stone

dvpower wrote: »

You appear to think that a serving TD being linked to 50 murders by the UK government isn't newsworthy

As was said above the people who democratically elected him are well aware that they were electing someone who was involved with the conflict so I'm not sure these British documents (not legal findings that have been proved in a court of law mind) will be of any great interest.

and the motive for publishing this news is just down to the 'establishment' deflecting. Can you see how crazy that sounds?

Ah yes. Crazy because such a motive could never exist and those in positions of influence and power are unquestionably virtuous. I just can't buy into the 'sunshine and lollipops' view of politics and media I'm afraid.

Chips Lovell

Sinn Fein really has such an odd attitude towards the IRA. On the one hand it has never divorced itself from or really condemned the IRA, and is happy with former IRA members in the party. On the other hand it acts outraged if anyone raises what the IRA did. I mean if Dessie Ellis is quite happy to say he operated at the highest levels in the IRA, why doesn't he be specific on what he did. Either he's embarrassed about his association with a violent organisation or he isn't.

I can't help but think that if, for example, questions about the tax affairs of a TD of another party were raised and they said they couldn't be bothered responding, what Sinn Fein's reaction would be?

golfball37

Its heartening to know at least one media outlet has its finger on the pulse as to what the real pressing issues are for the Irish people. A self confessed senior IRA member was involved in mass murder 30 years ago.

What next? Will IRA men be implicated in the Titantic sinking just as we receive our 2nd bailout.

spikethedog

MadsL wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-sinn-fein-td-who-is-linked-to-50-murders-3337801.html

How long will he dodge resignation by saying he wouldn't be bothered?

"I don't want to comment on anything said by the Brits. I wouldn't be bothered."

Err. Excuse me, the electorate might want some explanation...

A convicted IRA man, now a politician here was involved in the troubles in the north. Shock, horror!!!
In other news, the sun rose again this morning and it might rain today!

Any documents released on Eamon Gilmore's connection to the workers party and the OIRA around the same time?

rainbowdash

dvpower wrote: »

He was proven guilty on explosive charges and no one is saying he is guilty of anything else, just asking him to comment on the papers.
Not unreasonable given that he is a serving TD.

He did comment, he said he couldn't be bothered with something the Brits said 30 years ago.

As you said he was convicted of explosives charges, why not ask him to comment on something he actually did do?

Chips Lovell

As for the conspiracy angle, the British government always releases previously classified materials to the National Archives at this time of year. British papers today have lots of stories about the material released.

spikethedog

Anyone read the comments at the foot of the Indo's story?
A non-story if ever there was one. Nobody cares.
Comments about kenny & gilmore avoiding questions in the dail by using Jean McConville's name or asking how many bodies did SF bury in Ireland.
Pathetic politicians are what people are interested in.

Ghandee

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

No surprise there. Sure it is well established that he was *ahem* 'allegedly' one of the most utilized bomb makers for the IRA.

Perhaps he's had a change of principles since the early 80's though?

The early eighties were a troubled time in Irish history after all.

People are allowed a change in their stance of principles aren't they?

Chuck Stone

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

On the other hand it acts outraged if anyone raises what the IRA did.

1. There's a time and a place. If a tough question is raised by a SF member and the answer is 'but Jean Mc Conville' then the question gets avoided. FGS the boards moderators will pull people up here for whataboutery and avoiding questions yet our elected officials get away with it? Is that right? Who does it serve?

2. Security. There are still plenty of people alive who could be implicated in the conflict, precariously so. We seen what happened to Denis Donaldson when he was outed as a SF informant.

3. Double standards. Many think it's perfectly acceptable for the British (all states) to have secrecy laws and 50 year moratoriums (leaving aside eternal secrecy and denial) and yet expect to hold SF to a higher standard. Spill your guts lads but we're alight Jack.

3. Context. Sound bites are useless at forming an accurate picture of the past. There was a conflict on. Plucking individual events out and putting them under the microscope is mostly a waste of time and just more attempts to deflect attention from the bigger picture or current travails.

rainbowdash

bnt wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe that documents about Irish people are biased because they are British?

Do you genuinely believe that all these allegations are the result some anti-Irish sentiment in the UK, and it's only being reported here due to an "anti-Sinn-Fein agenda"? If so, why just this one TD, and not all Sinn Fein TDs?

There was massive anti Irish sentiment in the UK in the early 1980's, so yes documents about Irish people were biased, the best examples being the Birmingham 6 "confessions"

Of course there is an element of truth in British allegations against known Irish republicans, but I don't think Dessie Ellis needs to bother commenting on anything other than allegations proven in court, but there is no headline for the papers in that.

spikethedog

Thankfully this country is moving further and further away from the dark times that were the troubles.
Most people really aren't interested anymore, those times are to be confined to the history books.
The only ones who keep bringing these things up are the one's that currently make up the government and their ever loyal supporters.
Always with one eye on the next election, eh lads?
Gilmore's still quite coy on his links during the early 70's though.

GRMA

Dessie was in the Ra? I'm utterly shocked, it's not as if this was ever mentioned before.

Briefly read an article on this today is the claim contained in a paper begging for his extradition? Has to be true of course.

If the Brits had such convincing evidence then why didn't they charge him with fifty murders, they easily could have.

Dessie is a sound man and has been an extremely hardworking public representative for years now. Everyone knows he was in the IRA.

Anti republican indo rubbish. He has the right attitude not commenting on rubbish the Brits in the early eighties were saying, stuff they never backed up with anything when they easily could have and it would have served their interests to charge him too

dvpower

rainbowdash wrote: »

He did comment, he said he couldn't be bothered with something the Brits said 30 years ago.

Otherwise known as 'No Comment'.

dvpower

GRMA wrote: »

Dessie is a sound man and has been an extremely hardworking public representative for years now

A convicted terrorist now implicated in murder on a mass scale.
We at least deserve some kind of explanation from him.

Grudaire

dvpower wrote: »

A convicted terrorist now implicated in murder on a mass scale.
We at least deserve some kind of explanation from him.

now... in 1981?

Chuck Stone

dvpower wrote: »

A convicted terrorist now implicated in murder on a mass scale..

Conspiracy to commit murder is it?

They can't even charge him with conspiracy to commit murder?

dvpower

Cliste wrote: »

now... in 1981?

Fr. Dougal, the news is only released now. The alleged murders were in the past.

GRMA

dvpower wrote: »

A convicted terrorist now implicated in murder on a mass scale.
We at least deserve some kind of explanation from him.

Whats there to explain? He was in the IRA and was jailed for it. This has been gone over loads of times.
Now he is a public representative and has turned away from violence, isn't this what everyone wanted?

Nodin

dvpower wrote: »

A convicted terrorist now implicated in murder on a mass scale.
We at least deserve some kind of explanation from him.

Why? What explanation would satisfy you?

GRMA

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Conspiracy to commit murder is it?

They can't even charge him with conspiracy to commit murder?

You'd think they have tried him if he was responsible for so many killings wouldn't you?

dvpower

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Conspiracy to commit murder is it?

They can't even charge him with conspiracy to commit murder?

Nobody is talking about charging anybody with anything.
Just looking for the truth of the matter. Is that not reasonable and understandable?

Chuck Stone

GRMA wrote: »

You'd think they have tried him if he was responsible for so many killings wouldn't you?

The double standards that are directed towards SF (and Nationalists/Republicans in general) are quite astounding.

dvpower

Nodin wrote: »

Why? What explanation would satisfy you?

I'd like to know if he was involved in any murders, and of so, what his involvement was?

spikethedog

GRMA wrote: »

Dessie was in the Ra? I'm utterly shocked, it's not as if this was ever mentioned before.

Briefly read an article on this today is the claim contained in a paper begging for his extradition? Has to be true of course.

If the Brits had such convincing evidence then why didn't they charge him with fifty murders, they easily could have.

Dessie is a sound man and has been an extremely hardworking public representative for years now. Everyone knows he was in the IRA.

Anti republican indo rubbish. He has the right attitude not commenting on rubbish the Brits in the early eighties were saying, stuff they never backed up with anything when they easily could have and it would have served their interests to charge him too

I'm sure Enda will bring it up in the dail whenever they come back from their 4 week holiday.



MaryLou: "We want to know why we were forced to take 4 weeks away from the dail when we could be dealing with the problems of the country?"

Enda: "Dessie Ellis was in the IRA, na na na na na, where'd you put Jean? na na na na na"

Ming: "Can Mr. Kenny just answer the question, the country is in dire trouble and you force a 4 week recess?"

Enda: 'Would you look at what your wearing, Mr Flannagan, any of the wacky baccy over the Christmas?"

Michael Martin: "Mr. Kenny, will you just answer the question, for God's sake"

Enda: "You be quiet now, this is all your fault, ming's attire, Dessie Ellis's past, WW2, the sinking of the titanic.............I call a recess"


Ah, the standard of political debate under Kenny and Gilmore, or Kilmore as they should be known, can only be described as juvenile.

Nodin

dvpower wrote: »

I'd like to know if he was involved in any murders, and of so, what his involvement was?

O. And if he said that - for the sake of argument - only three of the 50 alleged operations in he was involved in were successful, you'd be satisfied with that and we'd never hear about it again?

Chips Lovell

dvpower wrote: »

I'd like to know if he was involved in any murders, and of so, what his involvement was?

This really is the essence of it. If someone is looking for your vote, it's a perfectly legitimate question.

Chuck Stone

dvpower wrote: »

Just looking for the truth of the matter. Is that not reasonable and understandable?

Absolutely. I would be only too happy if all the truth about the conflict came out.

I can assure you one thing though. It would be a hell of a lot more embarrassing for the British/Unionists than it would for Republicans. The current 'Cowboys and Indians' narrative still pretty much persists and that would be torn asunder by a T&RC.

That's the principle reason why it won't happen imo.

Sierra Oscar

Ghandee wrote: »

Perhaps he's had a change of principles since the early 80's though?

The early eighties were a troubled time in Irish history after all.

People are allowed a change in their stance of principles aren't they?

What evidence is there to suggest that Ellis has changed his principles? I have never heard him expressing regret for the actions he contributed to during the troubles. I am not even sure if I have ever heard him express remorse for the dozens of innocent people who died at the hands of the IRA, he certainly doesn't believe that the IRA did wrong by the looks of things. His 'I cant be bothered' remark in regards this latest allegations seems to indicate that much at least.

dvpower

Nodin wrote: »

O. And if he said that - for the sake of argument - only three of the 50 alleged operations in he was involved in were successful, you'd be satisfied with that and we'd never hear about it again?

I'd like to know the full extent of any terrorist activities he may have been involved in. That's all.
Obviously I couldn't say what the reaction might be to any information he was forthcoming with - but that's getting way into hypotheticals.

I don't even want to see him charged and punished for any operations he might have been involved in (if he was). I just want the truth laid bare and people can make their own minds up. Personally, I think it would be better for SF if those who were involved in IRA activities would step aside, buts that up to the party and their electors to decide.

GRMA

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

This really is the essence of it. If someone is looking for your vote, it's a perfectly legitimate question.

He was in the IRA and jailed for a decade over explosives charges.

I think it's safe to assume he was involved in fighting the war in the north and that he was involved directly or indirectly in carrying out attacks.

This is all old news