Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread II

Swiwi.

former legend wrote: »

As I said, Phillips is a quality SH, he gets a raw deal because he's a bit of a muppet off the pitch but his ability is, IMO, not in question.

If you're arguing that Parisse deserves recognition for playing with dross around him, then what about Greg Laidlaw? Not the most glamorous SH but in terms of importance to his team, he's right up there.

Parra, Machenaud, Care, Youngs all have to come into the discussion, give Rhys Webb a year or so.

Murray is in the mix alright, but definitely the best scrum-half in the NH? I don't see it.

Cheers for that. He gets my vote, but definitely the best SH, no I think there is room for debate alright.

Fireball07

former legend wrote: »

This is going to be twisted around on me and it's only a matter of time before someone accuses me of having a go at Murray or being anti-Munster but;

If you were picking on the basis of who the best exponents of the basics of scrum-half play, I'm not sure Murray would be top of the list either. His speed to the base of the ruck and slickness of passing are aspects of his game he has worked on and improved massively but he is not 100% there yet.

But Phillips does exactly the same things that Murray at his worst did on a much more regular basis. Phillips has a poor enough pass for a scrum-half, he's really slow at getting the ball away. He's big and strong, and is a good man for a break but is just not a great scrum-half.


He's behind Youngs, Care, Parra, Machenaud, Laidlaw and certainly Murray for me.

shaka

There are a couple of French guys who are very good but he is ahead of care and youngs. Very hard to ever say someone is head and shoulders better than another but he is well up there and still developing

The Pheasant2

Lads let's not be forgetting Mauro Bergamasco now - had a cracker versus England

former legend

Fireball07 wrote: »

But Phillips does exactly the same things that Murray at his worst did on a much more regular basis. Phillips has a poor enough pass for a scrum-half, he's really slow at getting the ball away. He's big and strong, and is a good man for a break but is just not a great scrum-half.

He's behind Youngs, Care, Parra, Machenaud, Laidlaw and certainly Murray for me.

If you were to look at it objectively and say that a guy with five Lions tests and 3 Six Nations championships under his belt, then he can't be all bad.

But just to clarify, I'm not bigging up Phillips at all, just that it's not clear cut as to what the pecking order is in terms of NH scrum-halves.

Fireball07

former legend wrote: »

If you were to look at it objectively and say that a guy with five Lions tests and 3 Six Nations championships under his belt, then he can't be all bad.

But just to clarify, I'm not bigging up Phillips at all, just that it's not clear cut as to what the pecking order is in terms of NH scrum-halves.

He's obviously not all bad. But his form has been generally very poor for quite a while now.


Back around 2008/2009, he was excellent and playing well... in recent years, not so much. He shouldn't have been starting for the Lions, I wouldn't have even brought him on tour tbh. And he was shocking in the tests. And also, limited players sometimes do have lots of success. If he was on his best form, then maybe he could be considered, but he hasn't been.


There could be an argument for who is the best NH scrum-half, but Phillips should not be considered. Because he's just not.

trackguy

Whatever about best NH 9, I think Murray is going to be a very important player for Ireland for years to come. He has made huge strides since he first came on the scene.

He is almost unique in Irish rugby in that he was promoted to the national way too early instead of way too late.

The Pheasant2

What were they thinking? I mean honestly...

[Jackass]

Swiwi. wrote: »

Hit me with your alternatives! I'm really judging it on international stuff + games involving Irish teams, as I never watch Top 14, Aviva premiership etc. So there may well be better out there.

Better:
Yachville
Parra
Kockott
Pienaar
Fotuali'i

Give or take, similar levels:
Dupuy
Youngs (a couple of seasons ago, has been shocking for a while, but I think he'll come back)
Philips (he was better, but loss of form around lions brought him onto about a par - pending if his better form comes back)
Matawalu

Outside Northern Hemisphere Better:
Du Preez
Smith
Genia
etc.

Don't get me wrong, I think Murray has developed into a fine player, but by God we get carried away with rating our own players. I think we read it in the Independent and it becomes fact without actually considering context.

He's amongst the upper tier in NH rugby, but to put him stand alone as "who's comparable" is madness. He's not top 10 in world scrum-halves.

Fireball07

[Jackass] wrote: »

Better:
Yachville
Parra
Kockott
Pienaar
Fotuali'i

Give or take, similar levels:
Dupuy
Youngs (a couple of seasons ago, has been shocking for a while, but I think he'll come back)
Philips (he was better, but loss of form around lions brought him onto about a par - pending if his better form comes back)
Matawalu

Outside Northern Hemisphere Better:
Du Preez
Smith
Genia
etc.

Don't get me wrong, I think Murray has developed into a fine player, but by God we get carried away with rating our own players. I think we read it in the Independent and it becomes fact without actually considering context.

He's amongst the upper tier in NH rugby, but to put him stand alone as "who's comparable" is madness. He's not top 10 in world scrum-halves.

First of all... I think when people said NH, they meant players who play for countries in the NH- discounting the likes of Kahn, Kockott and Pienaar.

Parra is probably the strongest contender, but he's not in the current French squad. Yachvili was a classy player, but he's not as good as he once was... from what little I've seen of him recently.

I don't rate Dupuy as high as Machenaud, and would take Murray over him.
Youngs... not in current form, although I think he will return.
Phillips- no chance.

Matawalu shouldn't count but even if he did, that suggestion is laughable, Matawalu is brainless. Has talent for sure, but that's nothing without a brain. Regularly costs Glasgow points, a lot more than he's gained them this season. Has been poor.



Laidlaw, Care, Machenaud are worth a shout, there are probably one or two more but Murray is definitely one of the best around, and I'd have him in the top 10 in the world for sure.

And I haven't read the Independent in about 4 years I came up with that opinion all on my own. Obviously having watched Murray more than the likes of Yachvili this season, I'm going to lean towards him more.

RoundBox11

Swiwi. wrote: »

Healy yes. SOB yes. Heaslip no (Read, Vermeulen, Parisse, Picamoles). POC yes with your logic about considering 4 & 5 seperately, otherwise no. Sexton - judgement deferred until after this 6N for the reasons I've outlined many times before about not yet having transferred his often stellar Leinster form to the international game - to which I am usually berated with a raft of indignant responses, and to which I am immune :pac:

Edit: Depending on how Conor Murray goes this 6N, he may also be considered world class in my books

I think your logic about Sexton would in fact emphasize his case for being world class. I'm assuming after Carter you would be thinking Cruden and Barrett, neither of which have done much at international level either. I'm not disputing their ability, but using your logic i don't think you can say Sexton is below either of those 2. Or at least not below Barrett.

RoundBox11

former legend wrote: »

Murray is definitely the best scrum half in the NH? That's... debatable.

Yeah i'd agree. Murray seems to be getting huge backing on here lately but if Morgan Parra was to regain some good form i'd probably have him ahead of Murray.

Eoin

Deano7788 wrote: »

The fact that he's primarily an 11 rather than 14 wouldn't have helped as he'd be directly against Fitzgerald, who's head and shoulders above the rest. Trimble and McFadden would primarily be 14s. It's not as simple to switch sides as some people make out, I played on the wing and 14 was never as comfortable as 11 to me. Any differences would only be magnified at professional level where stuff like positioning would be exploited more easily.

Forgive a prop for asking an obvious question - but what are the differences between 11 and 14. Obviously kicking would be a factor - what else would be - do left wingers tend to get quicker ball, based on most people passing quicker to that side, or is that irrelevant?

.ak wrote: »

Nah, I doubt it. Kinsella is a great journo

Yep, great to see some decent rugby (or anything, really) analysis for once on that site. Their player rankings after a match used to be ridiculous.

Deano7788

Eoin wrote: »

Forgive a prop for asking an obvious question - but what are the differences between 11 and 14. Obviously kicking would be a factor - what else would be - do left wingers tend to get quicker ball, based on most people passing quicker to that side, or is that irrelevant?



Yep, great to see some decent rugby (or anything, really) analysis for once on that site. Their player rankings after a match used to be ridiculous.

Yeah, kicking is definitely one factor. I'm left legged so I'd find it much easier to clear on the left side.

Left wingers do tend to get it with a bit more space for that very reason, people are predominantly right handed and better passers off that side.

Another issue is positioning in defence. If you're mainly a left wing, you're used to using the left touchline as an extra defender almost. On the right you're pretty much turned upside down and it messes with instincts you've built up. You'd also normally make more tackles with your opposite shoulder, which might be your weaker one for tackling. You're just nowhere near as comfortable in defence.

The other reason I found it difficult personally was I have a much better step off my left so if I wanted to go on the outside I'd use my pace and if I wanted to go inside I had a decent step so I was more unpredictable. On the right, I could still use my pace but my step inside wasn't as good so I was easier to stop.

Brewster

Deano7788 wrote: »

Yeah, kicking is definitely one factor. I'm left legged so I'd find it much easier to clear on the left side.

Left wingers do tend to get it with a bit more space for that very reason, people are predominantly right handed and better passers off that side.

Another issue is positioning in defence. If you're mainly a left wing, you're used to using the left touchline as an extra defender almost. On the right you're pretty much turned upside down and it messes with instincts you've built up. You'd also normally make more tackles with your opposite shoulder, which might be your weaker one for tackling. You're just nowhere near as comfortable in defence.

The other reason I found it difficult personally was I have a much better step off my left so if I wanted to go on the outside I'd use my pace and if I wanted to go inside I had a decent step so I was more unpredictable. On the right, I could still use my pace but my step inside wasn't as good so I was easier to stop.

I couldn't agree more, they are different positions and this is why Andrew Trimble deserves a shot at 14. Many of his Irish appearances have been at 11.

.ak

Deano7788 wrote: »

Yeah, kicking is definitely one factor. I'm left legged so I'd find it much easier to clear on the left side.

Left wingers do tend to get it with a bit more space for that very reason, people are predominantly right handed and better passers off that side.

Another issue is positioning in defence. If you're mainly a left wing, you're used to using the left touchline as an extra defender almost. On the right you're pretty much turned upside down and it messes with instincts you've built up. You'd also normally make more tackles with your opposite shoulder, which might be your weaker one for tackling. You're just nowhere near as comfortable in defence.

The other reason I found it difficult personally was I have a much better step off my left so if I wanted to go on the outside I'd use my pace and if I wanted to go inside I had a decent step so I was more unpredictable. On the right, I could still use my pace but my step inside wasn't as good so I was easier to stop.

Defo agree. I defo feel a lot more comfortable on the right wing for the reasons you've listed. However, most pro wingers should be able to step off both feet, strong in both shoulders and should be able to pass of both hands.

A good winger should work on both sides equally, otherwise they'll be limiting themselves greatly for selection.

shaka

.ak wrote: »

Defo agree. I defo feel a lot more comfortable on the right wing for the reasons you've listed. However, most pro wingers should be able to step off both feet, strong in both shoulders and should be able to pass of both hands.

A good winger should work on both sides equally, otherwise they'll be limiting themselves greatly for selection.

It would be great if they could but majority of wingers end up specialising in one position in some cases due to limited skill sets.

rrpc

shaka wrote: »

It would be great if they could but majority of wingers end up specialising in one position in some cases due to limited skill sets.

I would imagine as well, that even if they were training for both positions, a protracted period of matches in one position would by definition create a certain rustiness in the other.

Left footed kickers (being a good deal rarer than right footed ones) will also find themselves specialising for just that one reason.

ssaye2

Some light reading

1999 where are they now

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/giants-of-the-game-where-are-they-now-1.1669661

Deano7788

.ak wrote: »

Defo agree. I defo feel a lot more comfortable on the right wing for the reasons you've listed. However, most pro wingers should be able to step off both feet, strong in both shoulders and should be able to pass of both hands.

A good winger should work on both sides equally, otherwise they'll be limiting themselves greatly for selection.

I agree to a point, but when you are nearly always on one side it would become near instinct to defend as if you are on that side. If you switch back and forth regularly enough this is obviously less of an issue but if you always play on one side it will be harder as you're fighting against instinct, even if you are a pro.

Most wingers should be able to step off both feet, but there will nearly always be one side that's better. Although not a winger Olding for instance nearly always steps off the same foot (lethally at that).

Earls is similar, it's nearly always off the same foot. He's actually one of those that seems comfortable on either wing, though.

In summary, while most pro wingers should be able to play on either side, they will nearly always be more effective and comfortable on one side or the other.

The Pheasant2

What does everybody think about who to play at 12? I'd like to see Marshall for Scotland, but then I think D'arcy is the man for the job vs. Wales, and I wouldn't want him rusty before that.

ionadnapokot

i would prefer to see Marshall start against the Scots. He made a defensive mistake against the Aussies. Fair enough. But if he can get to grips with the defensive system, please god it wont be the passive drift system. If he can i would prefer him over D'Arcy against the Welsh monsters. They are going to try and attack the 10/12 channel again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3kxC2c5xOM

ssaye2

WOMENS TEAM



IRELAND WOMEN v Scotland Women, RBS 6 Nations, Friday January 31st, Ashbourne RFC, 19:30)
15. Jackie Shiels (Richmond/Exile) 8
14. Hannah Casey (Saracens/Exile)*
13. Lynne Cantwell (Richmond /Exile) 77
12. Jenny Murphy (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 8
11. Alison Miller (Portlaoise RFC/UCC/Connacht) 14
10. Nora Stapleton (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 18
9. Amy Davis (Blackrock /Ulster) 30
8. Heather O' Brien (Highfield/Munster) 9
7. Claire Molloy (Bristol/Connacht) 26
6. Siobhan Fleming (Tralee/Munster) 10
5. Marie -Louise Reilly (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 25
4. Sophie Spence (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 10
3. Ailis Egan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 12
2. Stacey-Lea Kennedy (Cooke/Ulster) 9
1. Fiona Coghlan (UL Bohemians/Leinster) 74 capt
Replacements
16. Gill Bourke (UL Bohemians/Munster) 36
17. Fiona Hayes (UL Bohemians/Munster) 2
18. Kerri -Ann Craddock (Saracens/Exile)*
19. Orla Fitzsimmons (St. Mary's/Leinster)*
20. Paula Fitzpatrick (St. Mary's/Leinster) 4
21. Larissa Muldoon (Bristol/Exile) 15
22. Grace Davitt (Cooke/Ulster) 47
23. Niamh Briggs (UL Bohemians/Munster) 36
* Denotes uncapped player
RBS 6 Nations Ireland Women's Fixtures
IRELAND WOMEN v Scotland Women
Asbourne RFC; 19:30
Friday 31st January, 2014
IRELAND WOMEN v Wales Women
Ashbourne RFC; 19:30
Friday 7th February, 2014
England Women v IRELAND WOMEN
Twickenham Stadium: 18:20
Saturday 22nd February, 2014
IRELAND WOMEN v Italy Women
Aviva Stadium; 17:00
Saturday 8th March, 2014
France Women v IRELAND WOMEN
Stade du Hameau; 18:45
Friday 14th March, 2014

LostArt

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

What does everybody think about who to play at 12? I'd like to see Marshall for Scotland, but then I think D'arcy is the man for the job vs. Wales, and I wouldn't want him rusty before that.

I'd agree and to be honest D'Arcys form has been mostly very good this season. Marshall hasn't done enough to take the shirt from him imo.

trackguy

ionadnapokot wrote: »

i would prefer to see Marshall start against the Scots. He made a defensive mistake against the Aussies. Fair enough. But if he can get to grips with the defensive system, please god it wont be the passive drift system. If he can i would prefer him over D'Arcy against the Welsh monsters. They are going to try and attack the 10/12 channel again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3kxC2c5xOM

Great stuff from North but that is one ugly try from an Irish pov. McFadden, Trimble and Kearney all making poor decisions there.

its_phil

D'Arcy is first choice for me, but I would like to see Marshall given the 12 jersey against Scotland at home

sullivlo

ssaye2 wrote: »

WOMENS TEAM



IRELAND WOMEN v Scotland Women, RBS 6 Nations, Friday January 31st, Ashbourne RFC, 19:30)
15. Jackie Shiels (Richmond/Exile) 8
14. Hannah Casey (Saracens/Exile)*
13. Lynne Cantwell (Richmond /Exile) 77
12. Jenny Murphy (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 8
11. Alison Miller (Portlaoise RFC/UCC/Connacht) 14
10. Nora Stapleton (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 18
9. Amy Davis (Blackrock /Ulster) 30
8. Heather O' Brien (Highfield/Munster) 9
7. Claire Molloy (Bristol/Connacht) 26
6. Siobhan Fleming (Tralee/Munster) 10
5. Marie -Louise Reilly (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 25
4. Sophie Spence (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 10
3. Ailis Egan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 12
2. Stacey-Lea Kennedy (Cooke/Ulster) 9
1. Fiona Coghlan (UL Bohemians/Leinster) 74 capt
Replacements
16. Gill Bourke (UL Bohemians/Munster) 36
17. Fiona Hayes (UL Bohemians/Munster) 2
18. Kerri -Ann Craddock (Saracens/Exile)*
19. Orla Fitzsimmons (St. Mary's/Leinster)*
20. Paula Fitzpatrick (St. Mary's/Leinster) 4
21. Larissa Muldoon (Bristol/Exile) 15
22. Grace Davitt (Cooke/Ulster) 47
23. Niamh Briggs (UL Bohemians/Munster) 36
* Denotes uncapped player
RBS 6 Nations Ireland Women's Fixtures
IRELAND WOMEN v Scotland Women
Asbourne RFC; 19:30
Friday 31st January, 2014
IRELAND WOMEN v Wales Women
Ashbourne RFC; 19:30
Friday 7th February, 2014
England Women v IRELAND WOMEN
Twickenham Stadium: 18:20
Saturday 22nd February, 2014
IRELAND WOMEN v Italy Women
Aviva Stadium; 17:00
Saturday 8th March, 2014
France Women v IRELAND WOMEN
Stade du Hameau; 18:45
Friday 14th March, 2014

Shiels must be in the form of her life to keep Briggs out of the team!

postitnote

.ak wrote: »

Defo agree. I defo feel a lot more comfortable on the right wing for the reasons you've listed. However, most pro wingers should be able to step off both feet, strong in both shoulders and should be able to pass of both hands.

A good winger should work on both sides equally, otherwise they'll be limiting themselves greatly for selection.

I always felt comfortable on either wing, but then I was a LH for most of my playing career :pac:

b.gud

Eoin Reddan out with a calf strain, Boss called up
https://twitter.com/rugby_ie/status/428513416265756673

The Pheasant2

b.gud wrote: »

Eoin Reddan out with a calf strain, Boss called up
https://twitter.com/rugby_ie/status/428513416265756673

Could be worse, thankfully we've a couple of decent replacements