Value based property tax?

professore

Ghandee wrote: »

professore wrote: »

I understand all too well. Sh1t happens. People fall on hard times ask the time. The country is broke.

Not too broke to pay the city council managers (of which your location is based) salary of €162,062 per year.

Oh no, that cant be touched though

I can't do anything about that.

This thread is about a value based property tax. The alternative is a flat tax where micheal o'leary pays the same as someone on minimum wage then value based is fairer. Not perfect, but as fair as possible.

Ghandee

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There might a system like in the North.

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-cant-pay-my-rate-bill

Are you not going to make the slightest attempt to discuss the mistruths you posted earlier?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80440149&postcount=52

professore

steamengine wrote: »

professore wrote: »

In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

A sweeping statement if ever there was one !!!

Or can't afford anymore.

mikom

professore wrote: »

Or can't afford anymore.

I see you come from the Gillette Mach three school of home valuation.

touts

Best of luck to them coming up with a value on my house as my neighbours house has been on the market for 2 years and the price is now 60% what we paid and still have a mortgage for. They havent had any serious interest and if they did a deal in the morning they would be lucky to get 20% of the original price.

They need to start charging for services. If you are on a public sewage system thats €100. There are lights on the road outside your house €20. A public playground within one mile €10. A library within 10 miles €10. That sort of thing.

But that would involve work by our public service so they will base it on some made up fantasy value of what the house would sell for in happy happy dreamy dreamy land with no recession and you could continue to live in it rent free till you die. It would also hit those same public servants hardest as they all live in Dublin with all the free public services.

Chips Lovell

touts wrote: »

They need to start charging for services. If you are on a public sewage system thats €100. There are lights on the road outside your house €20. A public playground within one mile €10. A library within 10 miles €10. That sort of thing.

Do you think proximity to public services would increase or decrease the value of a house and therefore it's tax liability? Do you think charging individually for every single public service would increase or decrease the administration budget for a local authority?

Ghandee

Originally Posted by Ghandee
Would you sign your name with a loan provider/financial institution for any financial service, while neither knowing.

A: What it actually is your signing your name to.
But also
B: not being told what your repayment sums would be?

Yes or no?

lugha wrote: »

This is in effect exactly what happens when you sign up for a variable rate loan! Rates can and do go up over time. And an increase of even 0.25% in a variable rate would add €500 per annum to a €200K mortgage. And that’s in the ball park of what the property tax will be.

More generally, if you live and work in any economy, you implicitly accept in advance any changes in taxes / allowances that any future government might introduce.

And in terms of our local mess here, anybody who has even a rudimentary understanding of the scale of our problem would appreciate that there will be a lot of pain for us in the future, one way or another, without the government having to spell it out for us.

YES!
.

FYP!

bonzos

If an alcoholic asked you more money and promised not to spend it on drink would you hand over money?...Not a nope!So why give money to a county council which is top heavy with overpaid wasters who have proven that they have no respect for taxpayers money.

professore

The devil is in the detail of how they value the houses. The only way they can practically do it is look at house sales in an area, or failing that, asking prices, and base it on that. Like VRT.

lugha

Ghandee wrote: »

FYP!

Well spotted! I would and I did. As would you and as (probably) did you!

Have you any more questions? :pac:

NIMAN

professore wrote: »

The devil is in the detail of how they value the houses. The only way they can practically do it is look at house sales in an area, or failing that, asking prices, and base it on that. Like VRT.

It couldn't be based on asking prices.

Around here there are houses on the market for 3 years with no viewers because sellers are still asking silly money.

I also bought my house 2yrs ago and a house close by reduced by €40k in the last year and still can't sell. Would I be valued at what I paid or what the going rate for houses is in my area?

I don't envy them trying to work this one out.

Ghandee

professore wrote: »

I can't do anything about that.
.

You can you know.

You could refuse to register/pay for any hhc or proposed property tax, let them fix the problems at the top first.

professore

NIMAN wrote: »

professore wrote: »

The devil is in the detail of how they value the houses. The only way they can practically do it is look at house sales in an area, or failing that, asking prices, and base it on that. Like VRT.

It couldn't be based on asking prices.

Around here there are houses on the market for 3 years with no viewers because sellers are still asking silly money.

I also bought my house 2yrs ago and a house close by reduced by €40k in the last year and still can't sell. Would I be valued at what I paid or what the going rate for houses is in my area?

I don't envy them trying to work this one out.

I agree it'll just be a guess in a lot of areas.

professore

Ghandee wrote: »

professore wrote: »

I can't do anything about that.
.

You can you know.

You could refuse to register/pay for any hhc or proposed property tax, let them fix the problems at the top first.

And how will that help? Where I live the people with bumper stickers saying they won't pay are all driving 2012 cars.

If it gets bad enough I'll get on the streets but not yet. We're starting to make progress on a bank deal, which is our best chance.

Bullseye1

bonzos wrote: »

If an alcoholic asked you more money and promised not to spend it on drink would you hand over money?...Not a nope!So why give money to a county council which is top heavy with overpaid wasters who have proven that they have no respect for taxpayers money.

Crude but correct.

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Having a property tax allows for a more stable and predictable source of tax revenue.

A predictable source of revenue for who, Vlad. Definitely not for the people whose bills have gone through the ceiling in the past 4/5 years, while wages have been cut everywhere(ok, maybe some people received some recompense through increments and rises, but not everyone). There are people out there with no more than €20 a week disposable income and a lot of them are liable for all the taxes coming down the road. What do we say to them.

Ghandee

professore wrote: »

And how will that help? Where I live the people with bumper stickers saying they won't pay are all driving 2012 cars.
.

Which they'll have paid vrt on, motor tax on, more than 60c in the euro per litre at the pumps.......

They've also possibly paid tens of thousands in stamp duty on the houses they live in too?

Bullseye1

professore wrote: »

The devil is in the detail of how they value the houses. The only way they can practically do it is look at house sales in an area, or failing that, asking prices, and base it on that. Like VRT.

If its based on current market values and is index linked taxes could reduce. Property values are falling and will fall further.

It needs to be more scientific than just value of house but should take account of location, services provided, number of people in household and ability to pay.

darkhorse

lugha wrote: »

Well the particular issue you are focused on (government members / officials living the good life as they go about their business) is something every government I remember, of all parties, did in the past and I expect every government in the future will probably do.

I regard it as frivolous, but if you think it is important then it is important.

Its very important when we are in the worst recession that I remember.

Bullseye1

darkhorse wrote: »

Its very important when we are in the worst recession that I remember.

For people who obviously know we are in a recession/depression and ate pushing for more taxes including this proposed property tax there is plenty of people on here (always the same) who feel they need to defend wasteful spending and the gravy train the politicians are still on. Every time it's mentioned the same people are on saying its fluff and not worth worrying about. "just give us your money...I need it for my undocumented expenses".

darkhorse

professore wrote: »

In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

They could afford them at the time. Its just that nobody told them/us that there would be extra to pay after all that we paid, ie. we were'nt told that the debt would never, ever be paid. Do you honestly think if people knew from the outset that we would forever have a anchor weighing us down, that we would embarked on such an escapade. You dont even have to think about this one, professore.

darkhorse

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

In fairness, I think you may be incorrect about this. I don't recall anyone saying that people would be obliged to sell their homes. The only thing that's been suggested to date by the government is that they may get a court order for an attachment to someone's earnings if they refuse to pay.

Colloquially speaking, Vlad.

Am Chile

lugha wrote: »

Ha ha! This is almost a copy and paste from what you posted here. Funny when you went to copy you missed my reply here

I suppose that is one way of dealing with a response to your question that you don’t like! Pretend it’s not there. :pac:

You must assume Im refering to you in particular in those posts-which Im refering to a lot pro property taxers on here who have constantly dismissed other peoples ideas and suggestions as alternatives to property taxes-but that,s not really what the thread is about.

RoundyMooney

Biggins wrote: »

I will hopefully say that in some small way, I helped to expose the excesses of those that was taking the piss while telling us at the same time to cough -up - if only to also help pay for their extravagant living.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" eh?

You can watch the watchers all you like, but have you ever come up with a single solution in your 31,000 posts here, and god knows how many else in other Irish discussion media?

Or has your every post been a populist and self aggrandising whinge about what's wrong, and all without a single answer to the problem at hand?

You'd fit in well with Sinn Féin, populist negativity is their stock in trade too, and they're pretty much the only party you haven't been a member of, supported, or associated with during your time here on boards.

The incumbents in government should be criticised, we all know that-but is there any chance you could, for once, come up with an answer instead of a question?

Biggins

RoundyMooney wrote: »

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" eh?

You can watch the watchers all you like, but have you ever come up with a single solution in your 31,000 posts here, and god knows how many else in other Irish discussion media?

Or has your every post been a populist and self aggrandising whinge about what's wrong, and all without a single answer to the problem at hand?

You'd fit in well with Sinn Féin, populist negativity is their stock in trade too, and they're pretty much the only party you haven't been a member of, supported, or associated with during your time here on boards.

The incumbents in government should be criticised, we all know that-but is there any chance you could, for once, come up with an answer instead of a question?

I've offer many a suggestion in my posts but then rather than having a go at those exposing something they consider equally important and also those raising questions - how about you too offer material to boards.ie than just moaning about what you see as just moaners!

RoundyMooney

Biggins wrote: »

I've offer many a suggestion in my posts but them rather than having a go at those exposing something they consider equally important and also those raising questions - how about you too offer material to boards,ie than just
moaning about what you see as just moaners!

Quoting this, cos you'll probably edit it in a minute, which means I'll have to edit mine, ad infinitum...

Please, point to a few suggestions. All I've seen from you, on here, and in your various sock puppets on sites such as TheJournal, is negativity. It's easy to point out the problems; the natural resources issue should have been handled with a greater emphasis on revenue return while encouraging exploration, the property tax should have been nailed down, and efficiencies in local government dealt with first, rather than a blanket enforcement of a flat rate fee, and so on.

See, I managed to point out two of the key problems in this thread, and answer them, all in a single sentence. I have yet to see you do that in thirty odd thousand late night sessions of sniping.

RoundyMooney

And for the record, Phil Hogan is an utter cretin-unfit for his role, incapable as someone who needs to lead in terms of a broadening of the tax base, and ultimately, only where he is because he stood with Enda when the horses were getting frightened. And he's making an utter bags of planning enquiries, local government efficiencies, water metering and property based taxation.

Just in case people think I'm some kind of FG plant, or anything.

Biggins

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Quoting this, cos you'll probably edit it in a minute, which means I'll have to edit mine, ad infinitum...

Please, point to a few suggestions. All I've seen from you, on here, and in your various sock puppets on sites such as TheJournal, is negativity. It's easy to point out the problems; the natural resources issue should have been handled with a greater emphasis on revenue return while encouraging exploration, the property tax should have been nailed down, and efficiencies in local government dealt with first, rather than a blanket enforcement of a flat rate fee, and so on.

See, I managed to point out two of the key problems in this thread, and answer them, all in a single sentence. I have yet to see you do that in thirty odd thousand late night sessions of sniping.

If you spent less time just posting raving inaccuracies* and bother to do your own homework instead of expecting everyone to do it for you (a typical government attitude by the way in some cases), you might find my often suggestions - its not too hard, there is even one or two in this thread.
Wants to borrow my glasses?

Meanwhile rather than this become a bitch-fest and involving person attacks as you it appears wish to start, I'm moving on.

* NOTE:

You'd fit in well with Sinn Féin, populist negativity is their stock in trade too, and they're pretty much the only party you haven't been a member of, supported, or associated with during your time here on boards.

Aaa... actually no - I've been a member of two parties - that all.
One I left after I became aware how corrupt it was - and one I am still presently in.
...But feel free to post more inaccuracies if you feel it helps your attacking. Carry on!

RoundyMooney wrote: »

And for the record, Phil Hogan is an utter cretin-unfit for his role, incapable as someone who needs to lead in terms of a broadening of the tax base, and ultimately, only where he is because he stood with Enda when the horses were getting frightened. And he's making an utter bags of planning enquiries, local government efficiencies, water metering and property based taxation.

Just in case people think I'm some kind of FG plant, or anything.

Now on that we will differ little.

NIMAN

darkhorse wrote: »

A predictable source of revenue for who, Vlad. Definitely not for the people whose bills have gone through the ceiling in the past 4/5 years, while wages have been cut everywhere(ok, maybe some people received some recompense through increments and rises, but not everyone). There are people out there with no more than €20 a week disposable income and a lot of them are liable for all the taxes coming down the road. What do we say to them.

This suggests some people's bills have gone up. Incorrect. All peoples bills will have gone up, including those who can afford to pay. If you own a house, drive a car, use electricity, burn oil, buy food etc then your bills have gone up.

My OH has also taken pay cuts in her job, luckily I haven't but I don't work in RoI.

The way some people talk you'd think only some people are affected by the recession. We all have been, including those that will pay all taxes thrown at them.

These taxes have to come, like them or not.

darkhorse

professore wrote: »

Sell it ?



Right, professore, just for the purpose of the lesson, say, we the home owners of Ireland do not care about what we stand to lose due to our homes being in negative equity, so we sell. Now, stay with me here. We will go one further and say, even the home owners that are not in negative sell up just because they/ we are not happy with the govt. plan to impose a property tax, water tax etc on us, can you see the respective LAs being able to cope with housing us, bearing in mind that there are approximately two and a half million home owners in the country. So, really, are we not doing the country a great service by borrowing a sh1t load of money and endeavering to purchase a home, even though it may take some of us a lifetime, also, do you seriously not think that it is enough of an effort on our part.