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Value based property tax?

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    #122
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Jame Gumb wrote: »
    You probably mean Carton House?

    Fairly standard practice and good practice to go somewhere like that for a think in.

    You'd have them in f..king McDonalds having Happy Meals.

    Any number of govt buildings at their disposal.
    Dail bar for after drinks

    Unless of course they're all paying for their own accommodation, and to be Fed and watered out of their own pockets, which let's face it, is highly unlikely.


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    #123
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Big list of reasons why a lot of people won,t pay the household tax-(1) double taxation most people paid huge stamp duty when they bought their homes and are not prepared to pay double taxes Il defends peoples right ti fight against double taxation-(2) the services no new services involved with the household tax,we keep hearing about property taxes up north, but they can get bins collected plus fire services and water services along with their property taxes, down here we pay for our bins privately, some councils have started to charge separately for fire brigade call outs, and soon we will be asked to pay for water privately, as phil hogan said would you pay for a service if you weren,t happy with it? I could go on and on with more reasons but I think you get the picture.

    I am aware that there is myriad of reasons why people won’t pay the HHC / property tax, but I fail to see what that has to do with when it is and is not just to break the law in a democratic state.
    Am Chile wrote: »
    plus last time I checked unemployed people are still asked to pay this household tax , €2 a week would mean a lot to unemployed people .

    It would be trivial compared to a 5% cut in social welfare payments that some on the no side are suggesting as an alternative to property tax. Unfortunately for the unemployed, they will have to endure both IMO.
    Am Chile wrote: »
    If the Irish government were to bring in a new tax equivalent to a Jizyah Tax on people to try persuade people to convert to a certain religion, do you think people should blinding obey such a law and pay such a tax without question? would you yourself be willing to such a tax if it were to become law ? straight up yes or no.

    This IMO is quite clearly an infringement of human rights and thus would be one of the circumstances where it would be morally just to disobey the law.


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    #124
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    Biggins wrote: »
    Its those same people that are having a meal, that are going to discus the next budget not in any of the many Dublin government offices or even in their Dail floor rooms but at a luxurious golf and spa resort next month in Carlton House, Co Kildare!
    Minimum price alone for a room for one person is €140 a night (top price €600).

    Guess who is getting the bill - including meals!

    ...And while the bill will run into a couple of thousand - which at the end of the day is smaller fry to the billions they have further poured into the bottomless pits of the banks, the fact that they would do this while the rest of the country struggles on its very knees, is yet again indicative of the double standards they have for the public!

    Jesus christ!


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    #125
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Any number of govt buildings at their disposal.
    Dail bar for after drinks

    Unless of course they're all paying for their own accommodation, and to be Fed and watered out of their own pockets, which let's face it, is highly unlikely.

    They could well afford to pay for themselves.


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    #126
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    Jesus christ!

    It gets better.

    Some of our politicians then move on to the luxury Mulranny Park Hotel in Westport September 1oth/11th for another two days, for more meetings - which by the way is in Enda Kenny's own constituency.


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    #127
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    I don't agree with a property tax and the government taxing the land under our feet, land that you yourself own. It's a land rent to the government as if they own your land/house/property.

    But really what else can they do? Revenue needs to be raised to run the country and pay out to public services and social welfare and the income the government is getting in, isn't enough.
    However, this country throughout the past decade was run on taxes from a stamp duty and a property boom and on the back of this so many things were raised - public service wages, social welfare, and quangos.
    For so many people a property tax in conjunction with other raises and perhaps cuts to working hours and income is going to hurt them so hard and it's going to be very painful and much much more painful seeing quangos that may not be needed continuing, public service high wages and incomes continuing and social welfare not reformed. It's an absolute insult for so mant people seeing the higher end of the establishment with big huge massive incomes and pensions. All raised throughout the boom.




    But really what else can they do?

    Have a good read of some of the posts here and on other threads- most of those in favour in property taxes-they still insist there,s no other way only then a property tax just like the FG rep on the vincent browne show last monday-cutting council managers saleries was suggested- a financial transaction tax was suggested, but no no both were dismissed out of hand by the FG rep-earlier this year a new rate of income tax for those earning over
    €100.000 was proposed by sinn fein, again it was dismissed by the present government using the excuse they didn,t want to tax work any more-
    the idea there,s nothing else they can do and no other way is just government spin.


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    #128
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    They could well afford to pay for themselves.

    I don't doubt that for one second.

    Guess who will be paying for it though.


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    #129
    ilovesleep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Have a good read of some of the posts here and on other threads- most of those in favour in property taxes-they still insist there,s no other way only then a property tax just like the FG rep on the vincent browne show last monday-cutting council managers saleries was suggested- a financial transaction tax was suggested, but no no both were dismissed out of hand by the FG rep-earlier this year a new rate of income tax for those earning over
    €100.000 was proposed by sinn fein, again it was dismissed by the present government using the excuse they didn,t want to tax work any more-
    the idea there,s nothing else they can do and no other way is just government spin.

    They'll be taxing themselves at over 100,000.


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    #130
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    They'll be taxing themselves at over 100,000.

    Does a turkey vote for Christmas?


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    #131
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    They could well afford to pay for themselves.

    Believe me if they had to pay for it themselves then this really would be the chosen location.........
    Jame Gumb wrote: »

    You'd have them in f..king McDonalds having Happy Meals.

    I don't think that place could take that many clowns though.


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    #132
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    eth0 wrote: »
    Kick ould wans out of their home so actual rich people with an income to match can move in. A real noble goal you have there.

    Also, when he does have the ould wans kicked out of their homes, a conservative estimate of a half a million of them, give or take a few, does he think that the LAs would be able to house them. Just a thought.


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    #133
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    They could well afford to pay for themselves.

    Reminds me of Animal farm.
    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others"

    "Well lads and lassies, after we gather and sit down in our luxury accommodation for our paid for meals and before we retire to the greens and facilities here, we must discuss how we are going to tighten our belt.
    On the agenda is cuts upon the elderly, the sick and those that are unemployed and much more.

    Please think these things over as you tuck into your 3/5 course meal. I recommend the '79 Chardonnay myself!

    ...O' and rest easy tonight, all your rooms are prepared in advance!"


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    #134
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Biggins wrote: »
    It gets better.

    Some of our politicians then move on to the luxury Mulranny Park Hotel in Westport September 1oth/11th for another two days, for more meetings - which by the way is in Enda Kenny's own constituency.
    Well like us all, you are free to identify the issues that matter, even if it only on principle. But I think you, and a few others, tend to dwell to much on things that annoy you as opposed to things that are actually important.

    But I would suggest if you want to identify how important an issue really is, as opposed to how, in the hear and now, it may understandably rile you, you should imagine having a conversation with your children / grandchildren in 20 –30 years time when they are wondering what sort of a dogs dinner of a country is bequeathed to them by this generation.

    In particular what will you be able to say about what you tried to do to shape the Ireland of the future? I suspect they will be less than interested about your battle against the excesses of some long forgotten blue shirts who were living it large and more in strategic matters that actually really do matter to their lives.

    Do you think they will thank you (and the rest of us) if we fail to put in place a proper tax system and when the next property bubble comes along in 25 years (it will!) and they encounter, as we do now, a catastrophic collapse in tax revenue? If you think Ireland will be a better place in the future without a property tax then good and well, but ay least as an issue, it certainly is important. Where the current gang go for their eats is not, really.


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    #135
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    darkhorse wrote: »
    Also, when he does have the ould wans kicked out of their homes, a conservative estimate of a half a million of them, give or take a few, does he think that the LAs would be able to house them. Just a thought.
    What's all this about ould wans being kicked out of their homes?
    More scaremongering?


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    #136
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    lugha wrote: »
    ...In particular what will you be able to say about what you tried to do to shape the Ireland of the future? I suspect they will be less than interested about your battle against the excesses of some long forgotten blue shirts who were living it large and more in strategic matters that actually really do matter to their lives.

    Do you think they will thank you (and the rest of us) if we fail to put in place a proper tax system and when the next property bubble comes along in 25 years (it will!) and they encounter, as we do now, a catastrophic collapse in tax revenue? If you think Ireland will be a better place in the future without a property tax then good and well, but ay least as an issue, it certainly is important. Where the current gang go for their eats is not, really.

    I will hopefully say that in some small way, I helped to expose the excesses of those that was taking the piss while telling us at the same time to cough -up - if only to also help pay for their extravagant living.

    If I or we don't, we are letting yet another C.J. Haughty situation arise again or acting as enablers to the double-standard situation.

    How quickly we have already forgotten the recent past of Irish history which even today, can teach us much!


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    #137
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Have a good read of some of the posts here and on other threads- most of those in favour in property taxes-they still insist there,s no other way only then a property tax just like the FG rep on the vincent browne show last monday-cutting council managers saleries was suggested- a financial transaction tax was suggested, but no no both were dismissed out of hand by the FG rep-earlier this year a new rate of income tax for those earning over
    €100.000 was proposed by sinn fein, again it was dismissed by the present government using the excuse they didn,t want to tax work any more-
    the idea there,s nothing else they can do and no other way is just government spin.
    Ha ha! This is almost a copy and paste from what you posted here. Funny when you went to copy you missed my reply here.

    I suppose that is one way of dealing with a response to your question that you don’t like! Pretend it’s not there. :pac:


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    #138
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    1. We don't live in NI.
    2. Council tax and rates in the UK are ring-fenced specifically for use by local government

    Like duh they don't have to pay for bins, or local services, cuz they are charged them as part of this form of local taxation.

    Also there's a whole heap of exemptions (such as no taxation of empty property) and reductions for people living alone, that I'm sure would not come into play here. :pac:

    You're wrong about vacant houses in Northern Ireland, they are liable to property tax.

    http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/index/information-and-services/property-and-housing/rates/your-rate-bill/rating-of-empty-homes.htm


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    #139
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    I see the Government/civil service Bat signal has gone up.......... and it's not even fully dark yet.


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    #140
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Biggins wrote: »
    I will hopefully say that in some small way, I helped to expose the excesses of those that was taking the piss while telling us at the same time to cough -up - if only to also help pay for their extravagant living.

    If I or we don't, we are letting yet another C.J. Haughty situation arise again or acting as enablers to the double-standard situation.

    How quickly we have already forgotten the recent past of Irish history which even today, can teach us much!
    Oddly enough, the things that really irked people about FF are things that made very little real difference.

    So Haughey was living the squire’s life and a sugar daddy was footing the bill! How much of our problems now have their roots in Charvet shirts? Little, if any.

    Likewise with Flynn trousering the 50 grand from FF, if he did. If it was anyone else that did it, he would be a national hero! Corruption has only a little to do with the scale of the problems we are facing now.

    Conversely, and perversely, the worst sins of FF had the support of the people. Everyone mentions FF buying the electorate with the disastrous decision to abolish rates in ’77 but forget that the people allowed themselves to be bought. And they did have a 14 year mandate, from this generation, to reek the havoc they did on the economy.

    I suspect future generations will ask what were we thinking during the boom just as we might now ask what were the voters of ‘77 thinking. Personally I have little interest in how much they were living the high life at the time just as the next generation, I suspect, won’t worry about such frivolous things either. It may be irritating and even hypocritical, but it is not important.


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    #141
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    NIMAN wrote: »
    :confused::confused::confused:
    what are you talking about, 500,000 people being kicked out of their homes?

    Ireland has had 142 homes repossessed in the last year if I heard the piece on the radio the other day correctly.

    Catch yourself on and stop being silly.

    If you took time to go through the thread instead of blindly attacking a poster, you'd see what that post was in reference to.


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    #142
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Biggins wrote: »

    What's wrong with having budget discussions in already paid for building that they actually own!
    What excuse is going to be trumped up!

    I'll get this one, Biggins.
    Cause its another opportunity to spend more of the hard pressed taxpayers money, while giving us all the two fingers.:mad:


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    #143
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    lugha wrote: »
    ...I suspect future generations will ask what were we thinking during the boom just as we might now ask what were the voters of ‘77 thinking. Personally I have little interest in how much they were living the high life at the time just as the next generation, I suspect, won’t worry about such frivolous things either. It may be irritating and even hypocritical, but it is not important.

    I suspect future generations will be asking many things.
    Including why when we saw double-standards and constant hypocrisy from our elected officials, didn't we do anything.
    Well some of use are trying - or are we just supposed look at always the supposed large issues, overlooking the smaller ones what oft times are giving an enabling effect of "Well if we can get away with this, what else bigger can we get away with...?"

    To overlook such double-standards is enabling others to carry on as before - and look where that has got us and the quality of politicians that has sprung forth from such a period of 'living to excess' history!


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    #144
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Biggins wrote: »
    I suspect future generations will be asking many things.
    Including why when we saw double-standards and constant hypocrisy from our elected officials, didn't we do anything.
    Well some of use are trying - or are we just supposed look at always the supposed large issues, overlooking the smaller ones what oft times are giving an enabling effect of "Well if we can get away with this, what else bigger can we get away with...?"

    To overlook such double-standards is enabling others to carry on as before - and look where that has got us and the quality of politicians that has sprung forth from such a period of 'living to excess' history!

    Well the particular issue you are focused on (government members / officials living the good life as they go about their business) is something every government I remember, of all parties, did in the past and I expect every government in the future will probably do.

    I regard it as frivolous, but if you think it is important then it is important.


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    #145
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    mikom wrote: »
    I see the Government/civil service Bat signal has gone up.......... and it's not even fully dark yet.
    There's a lad called Tin Foil Hat posting here! Maybe he'll lend? :P


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    #146
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    lugha wrote: »
    Well the particular issue you are focused on (government members / officials living the good life as they go about their business) is something every government I remember, of all parties, did in the past and I expect every government in the future will probably do.

    I regard it as frivolous, but if you think it is important then it is important.

    Other governments did it after they had entered into a bailout programme?

    This is news to me.

    Of course though, if you and other party members/supporter's think it's completely justifiable to further waste tax payers money, it must be.


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    #147
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    lugha wrote: »
    There's a lad called Tin Foil Hat posting here! Maybe he'll lend? :P

    Sounds like a vested interest.
    Don't think I'll tap him up.
    Feel free to carry on yourself though.....


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    #148
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Biggins wrote: »
    I suspect future generations will be asking many things.
    Including why when we saw double-standards and constant hypocrisy from our elected officials, didn't we do anything.

    I'm gonna start punching them in the face.


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    #149
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    lugha wrote: »
    Well the particular issue you are focused on (government members / officials living the good life as they go about their business) is something every government I remember, of all parties, did in the past and I expect every government in the future will probably do.

    I regard it as frivolous, but if you think it is important then it is important.

    I do think its important and I'll try explaining why.

    An elected person at the end of the day is supposed to be in their honoured position, to be there for "What they can do for their country - not what their country can do for themselves!"

    If we don't oversee and maintain an ever correct balance/level of the above, when the scales of ill-doing start to tip over in small amounts, eventually they will as one side dip more and more, reaching larger dips more down as some might say at each ongoing little further dip "Aaa.., sure its only a small thing!"

    ...And at the end of the day/month/year when the scale of political correct behaviour versus inappropriateness, is tipping far in one bad way than the other - there will be those stupidly asking "Jeasus, how did things get that far?"

    Well one only has to look at some people attitudes past and present for a possible explanation for that!


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    #150
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Other governments did it after they had entered into a bailout programme?

    This is news to me.

    Of course though, if you and other party members/supporter's think it's completely justifiable to further waste tax payers money, it must be.

    Now I thought you'd be off trying to figure out why it is grand for the sinners to change their political policies but not for anyone else? You've had a good few hours to come up with something. :pac:
    Mikom wrote: »
    Sounds like a vested interest.
    Don't think I'll tap him up.
    Feel free to carry on yourself though.....
    No need ta. If I might plagiarise your sig, I actually do live in the real world (and it’s not pretty at the moment, even if you do get rid of all those horrible bluehshirts :()


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    #151
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    squod wrote: »
    I'm gonna start punching them in the face.

    Don't do that. Join the Irish Democratic Party, they will all be good people.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76600414


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