Value based property tax?

Bullseye1

As well as this proposed propery tax there should be a residential tax for people renting. I believe the UK have such a tax.

OfflerCrocGod

maddragon wrote: »

I'm dying to find out how much my home (for sale for 2 years now) is valued at. Might get a friend to put in an offer of €20k. That's the value then if there are no other offers. €50 per year property tax - (20k x .0025).

Very clever, unfortunately that's already been thought of, usually with these taxes if you insist something is worth very little the government then has the right to buy it from you for what you say it's worth. It cuts down on the rubbish they have to do deal with, I would presume a similar system will be set up for Ireland.

None of these taxes (including water) are in any way new, they are as old as the hills in most European countries.

Explain to the average continental that there will be "blood on the streets" due to water or land taxes and they will think you're mad.

OfflerCrocGod

sarkozy wrote: »

Why doesn't the government just tax the rich?

You mean people with lots of wealth? Like a wealth tax, like property for instance?

OfflerCrocGod

Bullseye1 wrote: »

As well as this proposed propery tax there should be a residential tax for people renting. I believe the UK have such a tax.

Getting rid of tax advantages for mortgages which are paid for by people renting is a far better idea, renters will pay higher rent as their way of paying for this tax (you didn't think landlords would take the hit did you?!). Mortgage interest relief is something to be justly annoyed about. People who can't afford to buy a house giving a dig out to people who can, regressive as can be.

OfflerCrocGod

As for the comment earlier who argued against the idea that houses are "trapped capital", of course they are.

If you take a mortgage for €300,000 you end up putting almost €600,000 into the house once interest is taken into account on a 30 year mortgage, if a property tax would keep prices down to €150,000 that means you pay about €300,000 in total allowing to free up €300,000 over 30 years.

All of a sudden you have more money in your bank account that you can invest in useful job creating enterprises.

Look at German property prices and look at how healthy their companies are, access to plenty of capital. They have it right, keep property prices on the floor the money is better spent elsewhere then in debt bondage for the entire country.

generalmental

Biggins wrote: »

generalmental wrote: »

Why should they care they are now set up for LIFE, and they can afford. oh sorry wait I forgot they took a 10% discount.

Some people it seems have had enough. Here is Pat Rabbit last Friday dinner time, in Dublin being confronted by a few!
(Video footage taken with a mobile phone)

Rabbitte was having lunch in Buswells hotel, opposite Leinster House, with Peter Stewart, a former director of the National Asset Management Agency (Nama).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FZ5-0CXw8c

so the greedy Bastard had the poor ppl arrested because the fat cat was getting a bit of criticism. can someone tell me the day we moved Ireland to the middle east to be under the control of Dictators.cause I must have been asleep

christmas2012

I have to agree with biggins the average national household is struggling to keep head above water as it is,introducing more taxes,and those taxes that have no merit (ie property tax for your own house),means there will be no money left to rejuvenate the economy,it will slow things up and progress wont happen because were not allowed room to manouvre..

generalmental

Jame Gumb wrote: »

The cops were right to arrest those clowns.

Accosting people while they're having a bite to eat isn't fair.

We do live in a Democratic state and they are the public figures that the People voted in to power,as far as I'm concerned we have the right to question them as they work for us

Jame Gumb

generalmental wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

The cops were right to arrest those clowns.

Accosting people while they're having a bite to eat isn't fair.

We do live in a Democratic state and they are the public figures that the People voted in to power,as far as I'm concerned we have the right to question them as they work for us

While they're having a meal?! I don't think so. What ever happened to basic manners.

Some people may end up having their properties valued at X by the State for the purposes of the property tax and then saying "fine...you can f..king buy it off me for X then!".

christmas2012

We do live in a Democratic state

dont be fooled we dont live in a democracy,politicians love to hear and see people say that,its an overused word,and in todays political climate its lost all meaning,think of it when governments can fast track bills over your head in the dail without one whimper from the public or any platform for the public to speak and also not just speak,and protest but to influence the way the bill is handled,proves that we dont live in a democracy..

Bullseye1

We get to vote on big issues, you know like Judges pay. They are not going to bother the population with matters like the bank guarantee or this property tax.

christmas2012

They should bother us with it,bc we are worried about these issues people protested over property tax they felt so strongly about it,but the government fast tracked that bill right over our heads without our sayso,and they knew the discontent amongst the general public - not just those who turned out for the protest..

darkhorse

enda1 wrote: »

No.

A value based tax is actually very progressive.
Real wealth is the sum of assets minus debts, add to that the ability to earn. We already have . The prevalence of old people living in mansions, while professionals can only afford small boxy apartments resulting the proliferation of low quality apartment buildings is backwards and damaging to society. So yes, assets should be value based taxed. Every other assets which grows in value is taxed. The dividend the occupier is paid (accommodation and a nice place to live) should equally be taxed.

Could you point to a house, or asset, as you call it, that grew in value in the last 5 years, in Ireland. Talking about the dividend that the occupier is paid, btw, would you not believe that the mortgage that one pays for the privilege that the divedend brings, should be taken into account when assesing this "asset" for a tax and if not, why not.

generalmental

christmas2012 wrote: »

We do live in a Democratic state

dont be fooled we dont live in a democracy,politicians love to hear and see people say that,its an overused word,and in todays political climate its lost all meaning,think of it when governments can fast track bills over your head in the dail without one whimper from the public or any platform for the public to speak and also not just speak,and protest but to influence the way the bill is handled,proves that we dont live in a democracy..

I know we don't live in a democratic state. Unfortunately sarcasm doesn't come across too well on print.

generalmental

Jame Gumb wrote: »

generalmental wrote: »

Jame Gumb wrote: »

The cops were right to arrest those clowns.

Accosting people while they're having a bite to eat isn't fair.

We do live in a Democratic state and they are the public figures that the People voted in to power,as far as I'm concerned we have the right to question them as they work for us

While they're having a meal?! I don't think so. What ever happened to basic manners.

Some people may end up having their properties valued at X by the State for the purposes of the property tax and then saying "fine...you can f..king buy it off me for X then!".

I will give you that he deserves to have his meal 1st but how else are the people gonna get a chance to question them

OfflerCrocGod

It's a bit difficult for us to turn around to all the countries at the top of this list who are bailing us out and telling them that we can't tax any more then we are.

America the undertaxed.

Yes I'm sure we've moved up since 2009 but I doubt we are above, for instance, Germany.

Our dole is twice theirs, we have no land or water taxes and they have both. I can understand some of their lack of movement when it comes to us bailed out countries.

Medicine usually tastes bad but in the long run it's for the best, broader more stable tax base is what we need. Especially one that can be used to prevent or lessen a property bubble.

lugha

Am Chile wrote: »

Most of the wealthy people have the means and ability to pay such taxes, so no they wouldn’t pardon them

But their argument would not be that they could not afford it, it is that personally believe that it is unfair. Exactly as is the case with the HHC. Almost all that are not paying could afford it but are refusing to pay on principle. So you believe some people can break our tax laws if they think them unfair but others can’t?

Am Chile wrote: »

-the current household tax takes no account or consideration of someone’s circumstances regarding their means or ability to pay-

Are you really suggesting that there are any more than a tiny number who can not afford to pay the €100?

Am Chile wrote: »

and I suspect next years property tax won’t either one of the many reasons many people see it as an unjust tax which should be resisted

I am not sure how anyone can decide that the property tax is unjust before we know the details of it?

Am Chile wrote: »

property tax does infringe on human rights-in the united states if someone can’t afford their annual property tax they can be made homeless just because they can’t afford to pay a tax

Again we will have to wait and see what form the tax takes. Personally I don’t think people who are unable to pay will be thrown out of their homes.

But as thinks stand you currently can lose your house for many reasons (and retain the liabilities in some cases). For example, if you cannot pay the mortgage or other loans that use your house as collateral, or if you were to divorce or separate! Such an eventuality is undoubtedly distressing for those that experience it but by no stretch could it be deemed to be an infringement of human rights.

And in a democracy and human rights violations aside, I think you have to think long and hard before you suggest that people should be free to ignore a tax law, even if they genuinely believe it to be wrong.

dvpower

christmas2012 wrote: »

They should bother us with it,bc we are worried about these issues people protested over property tax they felt so strongly about it,but the government fast tracked that bill right over our heads without our sayso,and they knew the discontent amongst the general public - not just those who turned out for the protest..

Only tiny numbers protested against the HHC/ Property tax.
Most sensible people realise that we must introduce a property tax, and even if we didn't, we must increase the tax burden, and the choices are more taxes on work, more taxes on consumption or more taxes on wealth.
I know where I'd choose to tax.

Biggins

Jame Gumb wrote: »

While they're having a meal?! I don't think so. What ever happened to basic manners.

Some people may end up having their properties valued at X by the State for the purposes of the property tax and then saying "fine...you can f..king buy it off me for X then!".

Its those same people that are having a meal, that are going to discus the next budget not in any of the many Dublin government offices or even in their Dail floor rooms but at a luxurious golf and spa resort next month in Carlton House, Co Kildare!
Minimum price alone for a room for one person is €140 a night (top price €600).

Guess who is getting the bill - including meals!

...And while the bill will run into a couple of thousand - which at the end of the day is smaller fry to the billions they have further poured into the bottomless pits of the banks, the fact that they would do this while the rest of the country struggles on its very knees, is yet again indicative of the double standards they have for the public!

mikom

dvpower wrote: »

Only tiny numbers protested against the HHC/ Property tax.

Just a little over 700, 000.............. and they are still protesting.
Soon to be joined by a few dubs who got duped into signing up, but will begin protesting when they see how much they will be paying for living in the big smoke.

dvpower

Biggins wrote: »

Its those same people that are having a meal, that are going to discus the next budget not in any of the many Dublin government offices or even in their Dail floor rooms but at a luxurious golf and spa resort next month in Carlton House, Co Kildare!
Minimum price alone for a room for one person is €140 a night (top price €600).

Guess who is getting the bill - including meals!

...And while the bill will run into a couple of thousand - which at the end of the day is smaller fry to the billions they have further poured into the bottomless pits of the banks, the fact that they would do this while the rest of the country struggles on its very knees, is yet again indicative of the double standards they have for the public!

Going off site for a couple of days to concentrate on a particular issue is a common business practice and a good idea in my opinion.

The Carlton (I think there are two of them on Kildare) is a fairly mid range place. Complaining about this is petty in the extreme.

Am Chile

lugha wrote: »

But their argument would not be that they could not afford it, it is that personally believe that it is unfair. Exactly as is the case with the HHC. Almost all that are not paying could afford it but are refusing to pay on principle. So you believe some people can break our tax laws if they think them unfair but others can’t?



Are you really suggesting that there are any more than a tiny number who can not afford to pay the €100?



I am not sure how anyone can decide that the property tax is unjust before we know the details of it?



Again we will have to wait and see what form the tax takes. Personally I don’t think people who are unable to pay will be thrown out of their homes.

But as thinks stand you currently can lose your house for many reasons (and retain the liabilities in some cases). For example, if you cannot pay the mortgage or other loans that use your house as collateral, or if you were to divorce or separate! Such an eventuality is undoubtedly distressing for those that experience it but by no stretch could it be deemed to be an infringement of human rights.

And in a democracy and human rights violations aside, I think you have to think long and hard before you suggest that people should be free to ignore a tax law, even if they genuinely believe it to be wrong.

Big list of reasons why a lot of people won,t pay the household tax-(1) double taxation most people paid huge stamp duty when they bought their homes and are not prepared to pay double taxes Il defends peoples right ti fight against double taxation-(2) the services no new services involved with the household tax,we keep hearing about property taxes up north, but they can get bins collected plus fire services and water services along with their property taxes, down here we pay for our bins privately, some councils have started to charge separately for fire brigade call outs, and soon we will be asked to pay for water privately, as phil hogan said would you pay for a service if you weren,t happy with it? I could go on and on with more reasons but I think you get the picture.

Are you really suggesting that there are any more than a tiny number who can not
afford to pay the €100?

You might be surprised given all the recent league of credit union reports gives insights how people are struggling-plus last time I checked unemplyed people are still asked to pay this household tax ,

: €2 a week would mean a lot to unemployed people .

I think you have to think long and hard before you suggest that
people should be free to ignore a tax law, even if they genuinely believe it to
be wrong.

Again the argument a tax law is right and shoudn,t be questioned or challenged just because its the law-Il cover what the Jizyah Tax is again.

Jizyah or
jizya (جزْي) is the extra tax imposed on

non-Muslims
who live under Muslim
rule





the
ruler can
impose a taxation on those non-Muslims who will not convert to Islam.

If the Irish government were to bring in a new tax equivalent to a Jizyah Tax on people to try persuade people to convert to a certain religion, do you think people should blinding obey such a law and pay such a tax without question? would you yoursef be willing to such a tax if it were to become law ? straight up yes or no.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah_(Tax)

Biggins

dvpower wrote: »

Going off site for a couple of days to concentrate on a particular issue is a common business practice and a good idea in my opinion.

The Carlton (I think there are two of them on Kildare) is a fairly mid range place. Complaining about this is petty in the extreme.

Thats your opinion.

Mine is that given we are all supposed to be tightening our belts and cutting out any possible un-necessary spending (when there is many bought and paid for premises alone owned by the government/state), the government of the day is taking the piss!

Do as we say - not as we do!

The "common business practice" which they seem to practise, has helped get Ireland into the mess we are all heaped into now.

Here's a mad idea - maybe we should start change our "common business practice" - it bloody isn't working for us!

Jame Gumb

You probably mean Carton House?

Fairly standard practice and good practice to go somewhere like that for a think in.

You'd have them in f..king McDonalds having Happy Meals.

Biggins

Jame Gumb wrote: »

You probably mean Carton House?

Fairly standard practice and good practice to go somewhere like that for a think in.

You'd have them in f..king McDonalds having Happy Meals.

If anything like Biffo's adventures was like, it might turn into a drink-in, not think in.
...But I suspect they might have picked up a lesson or two from that fiasco.

What's wrong with having budget discussions in already paid for building that they actually own!
What excuse is going to be trumped up!

dvpower

Biggins wrote: »

The "common business practice" which they seem to practise, has helped get Ireland into the mess we are all heaped into now.

Here's a mad idea - maybe we should start change our "common business practice" - it bloody isn't working for us!

Off site planning sessions got us where we are now!!

You're excelling yourself Biggins.

This is a non issue.

Biggins

dvpower wrote: »

Off site planning sessions got us where we are now!!

You're excelling yourself Biggins.

More taxes...
More charges...
More cuts...
More bailouts...
More sucking up to Merkel...
Move u-turns...

I think the government is doing its own excelling - in taking the piss!

Carry on with the excuses for them.

Mully_2011

Biggins wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FZ5-0CXw8c

After seeing that **** them and **** there property tax.Your man was 100% right to tear into him.

dvpower

Bland tbh

ilovesleep

I don't agree with a property tax and the government taxing the land under our feet, land that you yourself own. It's a land rent to the government as if they own your land/house/property.

But really what else can they do? Revenue needs to be raised to run the country and pay out to public services and social welfare and the income the government is getting in, isn't enough.
However, this country throughout the past decade was run on taxes from a stamp duty and a property boom and on the back of this so many things were raised - public service wages, social welfare, and quangos.
For so many people a property tax in conjunction with other raises and perhaps cuts to working hours and income is going to hurt them so hard and it's going to be very painful and much much more painful seeing quangos that may not be needed continuing, public service high wages and incomes continuing and social welfare not reformed. It's an absolute insult for so mant people seeing the higher end of the establishment with big huge massive incomes and pensions. All raised throughout the boom.