Value based property tax?

lightspeed

so not sure if there is already a thread on it but ive just seen on rte that the government is introducing a value based property tax. ive also read that they plan a restructuring of motor tax. What bothers me is that ive paid the household charge and yet no action has been taken against those that haven't paid so i've plenty of buyers remorse on that. I thought the popular theory was that this flat tax was only to establish who owns what property so we could establish a fairer value based property tax.

However, ive not heard anything about the household charge. It sounds that this is just a further tax on top of the household tax and along with further water charges on the way. All this austerity to avoid a 2nd bailout.
Such a system is just scientifically impossible. If it was possible for austerity to work at such a pace then surely Greece should be better than it is now. Poor economic performance in the UK due to excess austerity has also choked their economy. How we can carry through such a programme of austerity that has proven each and everytime to be an absolute failure. it is just as remarkable as it is flawed.

Biggins

I got me popcorn ready...

Biggins

Biggins wrote: »

I got me popcorn ready...

I've already eaten mine!

The other threads have already discussed this to death.

lightspeed

Deleted User wrote: »

I've already eaten mine!

The other threads have already discussed this to death.

care to share a link?

ive seen a few threads on the household tax but not on this new value based property tax.

policarp

Sell your house and drink or gamble all your money away.
Go on the dole, then go to the local Co. Co. and look for a council house, medical card and a free buggy. . .
Property tax? What property tax?. . .

Biggins

policarp wrote: »

Sell your house and drink or gamble all your money away.
Go on the dole, then go to the local Co. Co. and look for a council house, medical card and a free buggy. . .
Property tax? What property tax?. . .

I agree with the sentiment - however looking at reality, for many (if they are even lucky), it might and does, take years just to get a council house.
* Medical card? Definitely possible. I'm also (maybe wrongly) assuming that a lot that get them, oft times really do need them.
* Free buggy? I've heard this loads of times - have yet to see evidence of it though in all my years.

kodoherty93

A value based property tax is an another tax on Dubliners

policarp

Biggins wrote: »

I agree with the sentiment - however looking at reality, for many (if they are even lucky), it might and does, take years just to get a council house.
* Medical card? Definitely possible. I'm also (maybe wrongly) assuming that a lot that get them, oft times really do need them.
* Free buggy? I've heard this loads of times - have yet to see evidence of it though in all my years.

It was a facetious comment. . .

Rawhead

kodoherty93 wrote: »

A value based property tax is an another tax on Dubliners

Here here,

just like the septic tank charge and bin charges.

Biggins

policarp wrote: »

It was a facetious comment. . .

Fair enough.

Sadly there is those that do espouse some of those positions though.

eth0

I'll just have to get a caravan, live by the side of the road. Maybe toss the old bag of rubbish into the ditch and annoy some of the locals. Soon I won't be able to push the door of the caravan open in the morning with the heap of keys to free houses the council will have thrown infront of it

Living an 'ordinary' with a normal job, normal house, wife, kids and maybe a couple of cars with tax and insurance outside the door is just getting too expensive. The government and private companies are just out there to fleece you in every way possible.

Tin Foil Hat

lightspeed wrote: »

thought the popular theory was that this flat tax was only to establish who owns what property so we could establish a fairer value based property tax.

I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of why a value based property tax is fair. The value of someones home is a terrible indicator of their ability to hand over a lump sum of cash to the government on an annual basis.

People can live in the same house for decades, often for their entire adult lives. During this time their circumstances change dramatically. Salaries go up and down, jobs are lost and found. Kids are born, maybe go to creche, go to school, go to college and eventually move out. People retire. Spouses die. Mortgages might be paid from one salary, or from two, or there might not be any mortgage at all.

A value based property tax is bollox, so it is.

Biggins

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of why a value based property tax is fair. The value of someones home is a terrible indicator of their ability to hand over a lump sum of cash to the government on an annual basis.

People can live in the same house for decades, often for their entire adult lives. During this time their circumstances change dramatically. Salaries go up and down, jobs are lost and found. Kids are born, maybe go to creche, go to school, go to college and eventually move out. People retire. Spouses die. Mortgages might be paid for one salary, or from two, or there might not be any mortgage at all.

A value based property tax is bollox, so it is.

One side might argue that if some of those events took place, there might be allowances and/or social adjustments which might be applied for or altered.
Now if one qualifies for them or if you miss out on them for the sake of €1.50 is another thing!

Taking into account that many are originally on POS (point of sale) purchasing because they might have saved up for years for a deposit and got help in cash lumps from ma/da too - does not necessarily mean afterwards they could still later down the road afford its then later taxes either!
(Thats the short version)

There is some sense in a value based property tax - but it HAS to be only only seen to be fair but also administered fair.
Will it?
I have serious doubts!

lightspeed

lightspeed wrote: »

care to share a link?

ive seen a few threads on the household tax but not on this new value based property tax.

The household charge megathread is morphing into the property tax thread.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056592766

eth0

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of why a value based property tax is fair. The value of someones home is a terrible indicator of their ability to hand over a lump sum of cash to the government on an annual basis.

People can live in the same house for decades, often for their entire adult lives. During this time their circumstances change dramatically. Salaries go up and down, jobs are lost and found. Kids are born, maybe go to creche, go to school, go to college and eventually move out. People retire. Spouses die. Mortgages might be paid from one salary, or from two, or there might not be any mortgage at all.

A value based property tax is bollox, so it is.

+1

Also the value of the houses change, I don't know if they are going to re-assess these every few years or increase them all by a few % every year. So the value of your house could go up for whatever reason, while you are quietly minding your own business and not wanting to move. Suddenly the council will be looking for more money off you

nokia69

kodoherty93 wrote: »

A value based property tax is an another tax on Dubliners

not really

the whole point of property tax is to reduce income tax, but in Ireland we will have high income tax and high property tax

also not all property owners will have to pay the property tax, I bet the only people who will be on the hook will be PAYE workers, so IMO its just another tax on the working suckers who pay for everthing in this joke of a banana republic

what we really need is a land value tax, but we will never get it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_George

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_and_Poverty

The following excerpt represents the crux of George's argument and view of political economy.[1]

"Take now... some hard-headed business man, who has no theories, but knows how to make money. Say to him: "Here is a little village; in ten years it will be a great city-in ten years the railroad will have taken the place of the stage coach, the electric light of the candle; it will abound with all the machinery and improvements that so enormously multiply the effective power of labor. Will in ten years, interest be any higher?" He will tell you, "No!" Will the wages of the common labor be any higher...?" He will tell you, "No the wages of common labor will not be any higher..." "What, then, will be higher?" "Rent, the value of land. Go, get yourself a piece of ground, and hold possession." And if, under such circumstances, you take his advice, you need do nothing more. You may sit down and smoke your pipe; you may lie around like the lazzaroni of Naples or the leperos of Mexico; you may go up in a balloon or down a hole in the ground; and without doing one stroke of work, without adding one iota of wealth to the community, in ten years you will be rich! In the new city you may have a luxurious mansion, but among its public buildings will be an almshouse."

steamengine

There was a value based property tax years ago. It was called 'rates' - each house had a 'rateable valuation' which acted as a multiplier for the actual 'rate' which was decided annually. When it was abandoned it was supposed to be for ever !!!

This property tax is really a re-introduction of rates by the back door, with a twist though - water (proposed), refuse and septic tank charges will be extra.

Biggins

steamengine wrote: »

There was a value based property tax years ago. It was called 'rates' - each house had a 'rateable valuation' which acted as a multiplier for the actual 'rate' which was decided annually. When it was abandoned it was supposed to be for ever !!!

This property tax is really a re-introduction of rates by the back door, with a twist though - water (proposed), refuse and septic tank charges will be extra.

...As will calling for a fire service?

So what exactly is one paying for?
I suppose thats discussed in the other thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056592766

emo72

Its too much. I'm not gonna pay it. Really don't give a **** anymore. I'm sure I'm not the only onewho feels like this.

Ghandee

You know its a silly idea when auctioneers and valuers don't even agree with it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/valuebased-property-tax-is-crazy-say-auctioneers-3210001.html

Some of the powers that be really and truly do not have a clue.

RandomName2

Biggins wrote: »

...As will calling for a fire service?

So what exactly is one paying for?

Yup

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0116/firebrigade.html

We are paying back the bailout with the property tax - it is even stipulated by the Troika that the property tax should be introduced to do so.

I mean, that's fair enough - but they could be a bit more honest about it.

Also a bit more fair! Value based property tax? What do they want us to do? Sell our homes!? I think a poll tax (yes, yes, I know) for a modest sum would be the most fair.

opti0nal

nokia69 wrote: »

not really the whole point of property tax is to reduce income tax,

The idea is to get at the savings of people who are otherwise outside of the income tax net - pensioners for example.

dvpower

Tin Foil Hat wrote: »

I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of why a value based property tax is fair. The value of someones home is a terrible indicator of their ability to hand over a lump sum of cash to the government on an annual basis.

People can live in the same house for decades, often for their entire adult lives. During this time their circumstances change dramatically. Salaries go up and down, jobs are lost and found. Kids are born, maybe go to creche, go to school, go to college and eventually move out. People retire. Spouses die. Mortgages might be paid from one salary, or from two, or there might not be any mortgage at all.

Net income is only a marginally better indicator but thats what we use for the bulk of personal taxation.

dvpower

Ghandee wrote: »

You know its a silly idea when auctioneers and valuers don't even agree with it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/valuebased-property-tax-is-crazy-say-auctioneers-3210001.html

Some of the powers that be really and truly do not have a clue.

They're a vested interest. Property taxes will put downward pressure on house prices and they get rich when prices are going through the roof.

dvpower

steamengine wrote: »

There was a value based property tax years ago. It was called 'rates' - each house had a 'rateable valuation' which acted as a multiplier for the actual 'rate' which was decided annually. When it was abandoned it was supposed to be for ever !!!

This property tax is really a re-introduction of rates by the back door, with a twist though - water (proposed), refuse and septic tank charges will be extra.

There was another one after that - it was called Property Tax.

steamengine

Biggins wrote: »

...As will calling for a fire service?

So what exactly is one paying for?
I suppose thats discussed in the other thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056592766

Yes indeed, forgot about the fire service.

I've no doubt that exactly what is being paid for is filling in that big black hole in the Exchequer. We all know by now how that came about and the powerful privileged groups that created it by their combined greed and incompetence. !!!

Biggins

RandomName2 wrote: »

Yup

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0116/firebrigade.html

We are paying back the bailout with the property tax - it is even stipulated by the Troika that the property tax should be introduced to do so.

I mean, that's fair enough - but they could be a bit more honest about it.

Yep - if they would just be honest (yea... I know!) instead of lying, it would be a good start.

...And on the assumption that the bailouts will be paid off some day - I won't be around to see it I suspect - we might assume then the charge placed upon the public will be done away with?

Some chance!

girl in the striped socks

I don't know about anyone else but I've honestly had enough. You can't take what's not there. A lot of people simply don't have the money.
If we lie down & take all of the proposed increases they are talking about then we may just prepare ourselves to get roasted with further increases down the line.
I didn't see the cost of living go down at all. But yet we're expected to roll over & pay out extra taxes on top of the ones already implemented & on top of wage cuts.
I'm sorry but that's just horse****.
Before the elections every sleazy prick of a politician was lining up to shake our hands & look for our vote.
Where are they all now with their broken promises & false concern?

Tin Foil Hat

dvpower wrote: »

Net income is only a marginally better indicator but thats what we use for the bulk of personal taxation.

It's a vastly better indicator. It's not perfect, I'll give you that, but it's worlds apart from taxing somebody on the notional value of a home that might have been bought last year, six or seven years ago in the height of the boom, or a half a century ago.

A property tax on an owner occupied home serves one purpose and one purpose only - to gouge money out of someone whether they have the means to pay it or not.

Biggins

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

I don't know about anyone else but I've honestly had enough. You can't take what's not there. A lot of people simply don't have the money.
If we lie down & take all of the proposed increases they are talking about then we may just prepare ourselves to get roasted with further increases down the line.
I didn't see the cost of living go down at all. But yet we're expected to roll over & pay out extra taxes on top of the ones already implemented & on top of wage cuts.
I'm sorry but that's just horse****.
Before the elections every sleazy prick of a politician was lining up to shake our hands & look for our vote.
Where are they all now with their broken promises & false concern?

You can only drain a person so much by so many ways.
...And the present lot in power continue to do this draining in any number of ways that they can possibly invent - then increase.

When people have nothing else left to give, what does the government expect!
When people have nothing else left to give business fail, they don't buy homes, they don't buy cars, they don't buy products, they don't buy insurances and further medical coverage plans, they work the black economy just to survive (which in turn has another knock-on effect of taking money out of the tax system).
All this and more happens and for many, they have reached this point some time ago.

Is the government listening? No.
They are going to cut more money going into people pockets.
They are going to more introduce and/or increase present charges.
They are going to further cut services and hike up other chargeable items because the money is not there.

The problem is that austerity prompts strikes and slowdowns, which, in turn, shrink the domestic market, investment and tax receipts. As unemployment spreads and wages fall, mortgage arrears and defaults soar. Property prices have plunged too.

Financial Times

Jeasus... I wonder why the money is not there!
Let me think about that for all of five seconds!

OfflerCrocGod

This is good news. Even better would be to tax capital gains yearly. Wages are less tax efficient method of employing capital in the current system than property which is a nonsense state of affairs for any country to be in. Taxing wealth like property more and bring down employment costs is what we need to do.

John Stuart Mill wrote:

capital may be temporarily unemployed, as in the case of unsold goods ... during this interval it does not set in motion any industry ... Capital is kept in existence from age to age not by preservation, but by perpetual reproduction. ... To set free a capital which would otherwise be locked up in a form useless for the support of labor, is, no doubt, the same thing to the interests of laborers as the creation of a new capital.
Capital ...in unsold goods does not set in motion any industry. Capital may be so employed as not to support laborers, being fixed in machinery, buildings,... locked up in the form useless for the support of labor.
Suppose half (one's capital) effects a permanent improvement. ... He will employ next...year only half the number of laborers

Property == trapped capital.

This is a good blog post that refers to the paper I took the quote from. Having vast amounts of wealth untaxed and frozen in property is not a sensible policy.