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Value based property tax?
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I dont believe that a value based property tax can be fair but surely those living in mansions should be paying more than those living in less expensive areas. Of course it is crazy to introduce it now given the state of the property market.
Before that controversial report was pulled by the ERSI, it revealed that 44% of people, particuarlly those with children are financially better on welfare than in employment. How much of a burden can the middle class carry?
When your in the middle bracket, you are the worst affected.
Those who are not working will be exempt almost all of these new crippling taxes.
Those who are on the higher wage bracket will be able to afford these new taxes.
Thos on the middle will be brought to the point that there are finacially worse than those on welfare and forced to pay all these new taxes.
If the Troika think there is unrest in Greece, wait to they see people protesting after their water has been cut off.
Thats when things are going to be beyond the calming PR nonsense of a school teacher.0 -
OfflerCrocGod wrote: »This is good news. Even better would be to tax capital gains yearly. Wages are less tax efficient method of employing capital in the current system than property which is a nonsense state of affairs for any country to be in. Taxing wealth like property more and bring down employment costs is what we need to do.
Property == trapped capital.
This is a good blog post that refers to the paper I took the quote from. Having vast amounts of wealth untaxed and frozen in property is not a sensible policy.
Sorry where is this vast wealth?
How much is in this alladins cave?
Sure there are many wealthy people in this country. The divide between rich and poor has grown to its largest in decades.
You fail to understand that although plenty of wealthy people who can afford these new taxes, most of the country cant.
We may need to get a 2nd bailout after the austerity introduced to pay for the first has been so toxic to our economy and further increased the number of people defaulting in their mortage.
We are just going in a circle. If we pass more austerity and need a 2nd bailout , there will just be more mortage defaults and banking debt. So what then? More austerity to cover the last 2 bailouts and then a 3rd bailout.
Mortgage defaults = Bank debt = Bailout =Austerity=
Mortgage defaults = Bank debt = Bailout =Austerity= denial, markets crash and further bailouts and a continuation if the above flawed forumula. When the middle class are poorer than the lower class and the above formula continues, expect blood on the streets. Im no armchair rebel and would never advocate violence but history cant or at least should not be ignored.0 -
OfflerCrocGod wrote: »This is good news. Even better would be to tax capital gains yearly. Wages are less tax efficient method of employing capital in the current system than property which is a nonsense state of affairs for any country to be in. Taxing wealth like property more and bring down employment costs is what we need to do.
Property == trapped capital.
This is a good blog post that refers to the paper I took the quote from. Having vast amounts of wealth untaxed and frozen in property is not a sensible policy.
This is nonsense. You don't seem to know the difference between a property portfolio and a home. How is my home 'trapped capitol'? It's my home. It serves the only purpose for which it was built - to house people. It was built by men who paid taxes on their earnings and bought by me using money, on which I have already paid tax, to provide shelter for me and my family - the most basic of needs. Btw, I already paid stamp duty equivalent to about 60 years of the current household charge when I did so.
Why should i be forced to pay the government a lump sum on an annual basis, out of already taxed money, because I had the audacity to put a roof over my family's head - whether I have the means to pay it or not? And why should the notional value of the perfectly ordinary semi-D I chose, when my personal circumstances were very different, be used to determine how much that lump sum should be?0 -
Tin Foil Hat wrote: »This is nonsense. You don't seem to know the difference between a property portfolio and a home. How is my home 'trapped capitol'? It's my home. It serves the only purpose for which it was built - to house people. It was built by men who paid taxes on their earnings and bought by me using money, on which I have already paid tax, to provide shelter for me and my family - the most basic of needs. Btw, I already paid stamp duty equivalent to about 60 years of the current household charge when I did so.
Why should i be forced to pay the government a lump sum on an annual basis, out of already taxed money, because I had the audacity to put a roof over my family's head - whether I have the means to pay it or not? And why should the notional value of the perfectly ordinary semi-D I chose, when my personal circumstances were very different, be used to determine how much that lump sum should be?
It's been a while since we had one like you in these threads. The "Look at me, I bought a house" types. A feat achieved by only a few million people before you. There is nothing in what you say that makes you entitled to choose which laws you will abide by and there is nothing unique about Ireland to make us so different that we shouldn't have a property tax like the rest of the world.0 -
I'm going to declare myself a traveller. They pay for nothing. I suggest everyone else do the same.0
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dxhound2005 wrote: »It's been a while since we had one like you in these threads. The "Look at me, I bought a house" types. A feat achieved by only a few million people before you. There is nothing in what you say that makes you entitled to choose which laws you will abide by and there is nothing unique about Ireland to make us so different that we shouldn't have a property tax like the rest of the world.
You might try to challenge my points rather that regurgitating a government mantra. Unfair laws deserve to be challenged. Just because most countries do it, doesn't mean it's right or fair.
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how the notional value of my home is a fair indicator of my ability to give the government a lump sum of cash on an annual basis, irrespective of my ever changing circumstances.0 -
dxhound2005 wrote: »It's been a while since we had one like you in these threads. The "Look at me, I bought a house" types. A feat achieved by only a few million people before you. There is nothing in what you say that makes you entitled to choose which laws you will abide by and there is nothing unique about Ireland to make us so different that we shouldn't have a property tax like the rest of the world.
Just have a pre-emptive dig at the kind of person you think the poster is. It hasnt been long at all since someone has tried this and the various other ways of passing a snide remark to someone in one of these threads without directly insulting them and getting banned.
There is nothing unique about not paying property tax either. Its not everywhere, it might be a bit of a fad in Europe these days since they are essentially forcing it upon countries like Ireland and Greece in return for bailout money.
There is also no reason why Ireland should be afraid to stand out when every other country does things a certain way. We had a great thing going when you could buy your house and never have to worry about the massive bill from the govt you be getting every year to be allowed keep it.0 -
dxhound2005 wrote: »It's been a while since we had one like you in these threads. The "Look at me, I bought a house" types. A feat achieved by only a few million people before you. There is nothing in what you say that makes you entitled to choose which laws you will abide by and there is nothing unique about Ireland to make us so different that we shouldn't have a property tax like the rest of the world.
This its the law argument is a bit tiring-as if to say all laws or taxes are just and should be followed no matter what-Throughout history to the present day people have fought and resisted unjust laws-Lech Wałęsa resisted unjust laws under soviet rule-women have fought against unjust laws denying them the right in vote-Manal Al-Sharif presently in Saudi Arabia is fighting against unjust laws denying women the right to drive-Gandhi resisted unjust laws under British rule,In Boliva in the late 90s the state passed laws making it Illegal to collect rainwater for use the people fought back and resisted that unjust law,Rosa Parks fought against unjust laws when she refused to give up her seat on a bus for a white person,Il move onto unjust taxes, a lot of people have prob never heard of the Jizyah Tax, as explained.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah_(Tax)
Jizyah or jizya (جزْي) is the extra tax imposed on
non-Muslims
who live under Muslim rule
the
ruler can impose a taxation on those non-Muslims who will not convert to Islam.
I could go on about unjust laws/taxes-but Im sure you get the picture- and people who are boycotting this unjust household/property tax are 100% in the right-
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=276371
I finish by asking you the following questions- If the Irish government were to pass new laws making it Illegal to collect rainwater, denying women the right to drive,for a black person to give up a seat on a bus for a white person, If the Irish government were to bring in a new tax equivalent to a Jizyah Tax on people to try persuade people to convert to a certain religion, do you think people should blinding obey such laws and pay such taxes without question ?0 -
Who exactly will be doing the valuing?
If there are houses around where you live on the market for €x, and they aren't selling, does this mean that your house will be valued at that price or lower?0 -
Self assesment most likely. Your assesment will be validated against other assesments and actual prices from the new database of all house sales.Who exactly will be doing the valuing?
If there are houses around where you live on the market for €x, and they aren't selling, does this mean that your house will be valued at that price or lower?0 -
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Alas, our problems won’t go away. It is possible, though unlikely I think at this stage, that property tax will be abandoned but even if it is, there will be some other tax on something else in its place that will cause every bit as much hardship. I have yet to hear a credible way out of this crisis that would not impact severely on the majority of people.I'm going to declare myself a traveller. They pay for nothing. I suggest everyone else do the same.
Yes, we structured our tax system so that during the boom we generated and spent massive amounts from temporary property related taxes. That stream has collapsed, which has a lot to do with the bother we are in now. Surely, at least in hindsight, you can see that we really did not have “a great thing going”?We had a great thing going when you could buy your house and never have to worry about the massive bill from the govt you be getting every year to be allowed keep it.This its the law argument is a bit tiring-as if to say all laws or taxes are just and should be followed no matter what-Throughout history to the present day people have fought and resisted unjust laws
But this works both ways. If the law is not absolutely binding then can everyone not decide for themselves what laws the consider just? Many very wealthy people for example genuinely do believe that it is unjust that they are asked to pay more tax that everyone else. Would you pardon them if they decided to evade their tax obligations?
Or what about the small number of politicians who were fingered by tribunals for corruption? They insist they saw nothing wrong with what they were doing. Absolution for them too?
Most of the law-defying examples you mentioned involved situations where people’s basic human rights were been infringed. What we are looking at here, despite all the passion, is the rather ho hum matter of how a democratically elected government structures its taxation system! If the people don’t like what they do, they can vote them out of office next time around.
One of the dafter notions the no side put out was to liken their battle with that against apartheid in SA! Thankfully they seem to have abandoned this nonsense.0 -
Who exactly will be doing the valuing?
If there are houses around where you live on the market for €x, and they aren't selling, does this mean that your house will be valued at that price or lower?
We have no details yet. It would only be speculation to say otherwise. It maybe self assessment or it maybe independently valued. They may start out with self assessment to get the ball rolling and in the coming years employ the same people responsible for assessing rates to assess the market value or simply ask the householder to employ an auctioneer/valuer to produce the figure.
At this moment in time we simply don't know.0 -
This its the law argument is a bit tiring-as if to say all laws or taxes are just and should be followed no matter what-Throughout history to the present day people have fought and resisted unjust laws-Lech Wałęsa resisted unjust laws under soviet rule-women have fought against unjust laws denying them the right in vote-Manal Al-Sharif presently in Saudi Arabia is fighting against unjust laws denying women the right to drive-Gandhi resisted unjust laws under British rule,In Boliva in the late 90s the state passed laws making it Illegal to collect rainwater for use the people fought back and resisted that unjust law,Rosa Parks fought against unjust laws when she refused to give up her seat on a bus for a white person,Il move onto unjust taxes, a lot of people have prob never heard of the Jizyah Tax, as explained.
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Jizyah_(Tax)
I could go on about unjust laws/taxes-but Im sure you get the picture- and people who are boycotting this unjust household/property tax are 100% in the right-
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=276371
I finish by asking you the following questions- If the Irish government were to pass new laws making it Illegal to collect rainwater, denying women the right to drive,for a black person to give up a seat on a bus for a white person, If the Irish government were to bring in a new tax equivalent to a Jizyah Tax on people to try persuade people to convert to a certain religion, do you think people should blinding obey such laws and pay such taxes without question ?
Would you have the same concerns for our fellow citizens across the border who are living under an administration which has a party trying to get into power in this country. This is what happens under their watch if you don't pay your property tax there.
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-don-t-pay-my-rates
If you don't pay your rates
If you do not pay your rates or contact LPS to make an arrangement to clear your account, you will be taken to court. This will mean:
•additional costs
•your credit rating could be affected, and as a result you may not be able to apply for credit or a loan
•you could be made bankrupt
•your home could be repossessed
In 2011 - 12 court action was taken against 45,902 ratepayers for non-payment of rates.
You are living in a democracy, not a muslim caliphate or a communist dictatorship. Not only was the law introducing the HHC passed with a large majority but a bill intoduced by its opponents to have have repealed was also soundly defeated. This is democracy and the rule of law in action and if the campaign of illegality against it suceeds we are in big trouble.
http://www.thejournal.ie/bill-to-repeal-household-charge-to-be-debated-in-the-dail-tonight-492626-Jun2012/0 -
Most of the law-defying exaFor example: small bubbles, scuffs, etc. should be considered normal for chromed figures. If you are a highly selective collector, we caution you keep this in mind before placing your order. So if you're bothered by small imperfections…PLEASE DO NOT ORDER THIS STATUE. IT'S NOT FOR YOU BUB. SAVE YOUR MONEY FOR SOMETHING THAT WILL HAVE A BETTER CHANCE OF MEETING YOUR EXPECTATIONS.mples you mentioned involved situations where people’s basic human rights were been infringed. What we are looking at here, despite all the passion, is the rather ho hum matter of how a democratically elected government structures its taxation system! If the people don’t like what they do, they can vote them out of office next time around.
One of the dafter notions the no side put out was to liken their battle with that against apartheid in SA! Thankfully they seem to have abandoned this nonsense.
When was the last time you recall a new government being elected on a clear mandate to reverse or call a halt to the actions of the previous government and following through on their mandate? Many people elected FG in with their promise to stand up to the EU/IMF and the banks. No more money to BR pumped into the banks, bond holders to be burnt....etc. The fact of the matter is once they introduce a tax (household charge is not a tax but a charge) it is here to stay. The USC and levy on pensions will no doubt be here to stay yet we were told it was only for a number of years. The USC is a rise in income tax. They argue that a rise in income tax hurts our opportunity to protect employment yet they rise VAT on professionals fees from 21 to 23%. How is that protecting the self employed professionals?
FG was also elected in to take on the public sector unions and the first thing they do is bring Labour in (they could have made up the numbers with independents). This meant they were never interested in taking on the unions when they told bare face lies at the doorstep.
So while it is all very nice to say we can elect someone else in this country the fact is they are all the same lying scum.0 -
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I think there are two separate but interrelated points here.
On the first issue, I agree, a house is a home, but it's also an asset. However, if a house is the only one in one's possession and is providing its primary purpose, it should not be considered a pure wealth asset. However, as David Harvey points out, houses are not 'ordinary commodities' because they can, while providing their primary function in the short and medium-term, also provide a wealth asset. The balance needs to be struck here.
The second issue is taxation. Let's recap: taxation is a method of the state to raise revenues to provide security and services to citizens. In more recent history, and in the context of capitalism, taxation is also a method to shift wealth between groups in society for 'progressive' or 'regressive' purposes. Lesson over. In other countries, a property tax is levied to promote social equity and to pay for local services. Those countries have a real local government system where local governments are truly accountable for the quality of services they provide or do not provide. With our dysfunctional system of governance, all taxes are in effect central taxes (with the exception of local service charges). Speaking personally, I would be content paying a local tax or property tax if and only if it was linked to local service delivery so that I, and we all, could hold those responsible to account. We need a local/national tax split where we can be clearly informed where the money is going, empowering us to hold whoever is responsible to account. This kind of thing has been rolled out in the jungles of Uganda, why can't we have it?
Will I pay this tax. Yes, because I value my liberty. Do I think it's right as proposed. I don't know because we don't have the detail. Speaking for myself, I'm about to get the keys for a house. My wife and I have saved prodigiously over the past ten years - always working on very modest and unstable salaries. We will be moving into a modest Dublin house, and our incomes will continue to be modest. I am worried that, with a property tax based on value rather than size, we will be unable to pay through no fault of our own and lose our home which we grafted hard to be able to afford - but through the fault of property speculators.
And here's an anecdote. My stepmother knows a very old lady in America. She lived in a beautiful, modest home on a scenic part of the Maine coastline. She lived there all her life, before any real-estate boom. She raised her family there. Her husband died, her kids moved out. She was a pensioner. Because property tax there was value-based, she could not pay and there were no waivers. Heartbroken, she was forced to leave her home of over 50 years.
I just cannot trust the government or the IMF when it comes to taxation. I've read too much about what the IMF does to impoverish the poorest of the poor in developing countries. The same beast is at work here.0 -
girl in the striped socks wrote: »I don't know about anyone else but I've honestly had enough. You can't take what's not there. A lot of people simply don't have the money.
If we lie down & take all of the proposed increases they are talking about then we may just prepare ourselves to get roasted with further increases down the line.
I didn't see the cost of living go down at all. But yet we're expected to roll over & pay out extra taxes on top of the ones already implemented & on top of wage cuts.
I'm sorry but that's just horse****.
Before the elections every sleazy prick of a politician was lining up to shake our hands & look for our vote.
Where are they all now with their broken promises & false concern?
That's right. Theres a huge imbalance of income and wealth. Some people have money, others don't. Then we have the ones in the middle - working, earning a wage, but everything going on outgoings mortgage commitments, bills. They may struggle to find money for a doctors appointment. I'm sure they made adjustments to their bills and spendings to try and save but now there are extra outgoings. These people do not have SW or a medical card to fall back on. They are called the new poor.
It's going to go around in circles. Take money away from those that have little, the less they have to spend in the local economy which would equal more unemployment which will equal more people on SW which is more strains on the SW system and the deficit will still remain. Which will mean - raise more taxes.
The government is going about it wrong in my opinion. We have so many problems that money is just thrown at in the country instead of change and reform. FG are 18 months+ in office and they are not doing it. They are doing mickey mouse changes just to be seen to do something.0 -
Why doesn't the government just tax the rich?0
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dxhound2005 wrote: »Would you have the same concerns for our fellow citizens across the border who are living under an administration which has a party trying to get into power in this country. This is what happens under their watch if you don't pay your property tax there.
http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-don-t-pay-my-rates
If you don't pay your rates
If you do not pay your rates or contact LPS to make an arrangement to clear your account, you will be taken to court. This will mean:
•additional costs
•your credit rating could be affected, and as a result you may not be able to apply for credit or a loan
•you could be made bankrupt
•your home could be repossessed
In 2011 - 12 court action was taken against 45,902 ratepayers for non-payment of rates.
You are living in a democracy, not a muslim caliphate or a communist dictatorship. Not only was the law introducing the HHC passed with a large majority but a bill intoduced by its opponents to have have repealed was also soundly defeated. This is democracy and the rule of law in action and if the campaign of illegality against it suceeds we are in big trouble.
http://www.thejournal.ie/bill-to-repeal-household-charge-to-be-debated-in-the-dail-tonight-492626-Jun2012/
The DUP are not 'trying to get into power' in this country.
You will claim that Sinn Fein are operating the domestic rates system in the North, and I will (once more) point out the flaws in your argument.
Firstly, Sinn Fein are not in power in the North, they are in a coalition govt with the DUP. Neither party have direct powers when it comes to taxation though, as these powers come direct from parliament (which you are quite aware of)
One tiny snippet of proof of this can be seen here, where the DUP and Sinn Fein jointly ask Westminster to reduce the corporation tax in the North to match the rate in the South.
Why do they need to campaign to Westminster? Because setting taxation levels is not within their power!"This is really serious stuff before the Westminster government makes a decision one way or the other as to whether we will devolve corporation tax."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16190777
Secondly, once again I will make readers of these threads aware of what Domestic rates are, versus what a property tax is, and what you will get for your money.What do rates pay for?
Rates fund public services in Northern Ireland, both regional and local. Your rate bill is made up of two parts, the regional rate and the district rate.
Regional rate
The regional rate is set annually by the Northern Ireland Executive and is applied to each district council area in Northern Ireland. This pays for such services as:
education
emergency services
health
housing
roads
water and sewerage
Although a contribution is made by all ratepayers towards public services, there is no specific proportion that can be linked to the availability or usage of any particular public service.
District rate
The district rate is set annually by each of the district councils in Northern Ireland, and is used to fund services such as:
arts, events and recreation
building control
community centres
environmental health
leisure facilities
tourism
waste management
You can get more information about your district rate and what it pays for in your local area by contacting your council.
Property tax will not get you any of the services listed above however, and as one poster rightfully pointed out earlier, you could be born into a house, quietlky minding your own business, when suddenly the tax burden placed on the family home becomes impossible to pay, forcing you to leave the family home.
I realise services need to be paid for, and for the record, I agree with the rates system in operation in the North.
The Gov are not attempting to bring in a system akin to rates though, were you will receive a service in exchange for your cash.
They want your cash. Thats it.0 -
Tin Foil Hat wrote: »I have yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of why a value based property tax is fair. The value of someones home is a terrible indicator of their ability to hand over a lump sum of cash to the government on an annual basis.
People can live in the same house for decades, often for their entire adult lives. During this time their circumstances change dramatically. Salaries go up and down, jobs are lost and found. Kids are born, maybe go to creche, go to school, go to college and eventually move out. People retire. Spouses die. Mortgages might be paid from one salary, or from two, or there might not be any mortgage at all.
A value based property tax is bollox, so it is.
No.
A value based tax is actually very progressive.
Real wealth is the sum of assets minus debts, add to that the ability to earn. We already have . The prevalence of old people living in mansions, while professionals can only afford small boxy apartments resulting the proliferation of low quality apartment buildings is backwards and damaging to society. So yes, assets should be value based taxed. Every other assets which grows in value is taxed. The dividend the occupier is paid (accommodation and a nice place to live) should equally be taxed.0 -
No.
A value based tax is actually very progressive.
Real wealth is the sum of assets minis debts, add to that the ability to earn. We already have . The prevalence of old people living in mansions, while professionals can only afford small boxy apartments resulting the proliferation of low quality apartment buildings is backwards and damaging to society. So yes, assets Gould be value based taxed. Every other assets which grows in value is taxed. The dividend the occupier is paid (accommodation and a nice place to live) should equally be taxed.
A 340k mortgage taken out on a family home, which has plummeted in value to 150k (less than half the morgage on it) is a very funny notion of an 'asset'.0 -
I'm dying to find out how much my home (for sale for 2 years now) is valued at. Might get a friend to put in an offer of €20k. That's the value then if there are no other offers. €50 per year property tax - (20k x .0025).0
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Alas, our problems won’t go away. It is possible, though unlikely I think at this stage, that property tax will be abandoned but even if it is, there will be some other tax on something else in its place that will cause every bit as much hardship. I have yet to hear a credible way out of this crisis that would not impact severely on the majority of people.
Yes, we structured our tax system so that during the boom we generated and spent massive amounts from temporary property related taxes. That stream has collapsed, which has a lot to do with the bother we are in now. Surely, at least in hindsight, you can see that we really did not have “a great thing going”?
We shouldn't be forced to drip feed the government a steady supply of tax with the threat of the roof being removed from over your head, just because the government couldn't handle a lump sum without going mad spending. People's incomes won't be as steady as the demands for property tax either. Property tax attempts to extract money from people whether they have it or not.
The credible way out would be for a better organised ganging up effort on the Germans and would involve a lot of bank debt not being paid. As it is the Germans are milking countries like Ireland dry (they lend us money and demand high interest, so we can pay older loans + interest back to them). The rest of the deficit can be sorted with more cuts, every day I still see people who are getting paid far too much by the government for the few strokes of work they do0 -
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The prevalence of old people living in mansions
What relevance does that have?
They've bought and paid for their homes using income that's already been taxed. It costs a lot more for the State to deliver services to some shack in Connemara than to a mansion in Ballsbridge, so the very idea of a value based system is outrageous.
If these fictional elderly people have the income to pay a property tax, then they should pay it. But I they don't have the income to pay such a tax, they should not be forced from their home. Suggesting that they should is ridiculous.0 -
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What relevance does that have?
They've bought and paid for their homes using income that's already been taxed. It costs a lot more for the State to deliver services to some shack in Connemara than to a mansion in Ballsbridge, so the very idea of a value based system is outrageous.
If these fictional elderly people have the income to pay a property tax, then they should pay it. But I they don't have the income to pay such a tax, they should not be forced from their home. Suggesting hat they should is ridiculous.
If I invest in any asset, I pay tax on the dividends. Why should property be different?
Yes, these real ok people should have to sell up and move if they can't afford payments. It makes no sense for prime real estate to stay mothballed while awaiting their death.0 -
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