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Value based property tax?

124

Comments

  • #152
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    lugha wrote: »
    Now I thought you'd be off trying to figure out why it is grand for the sinners to change their political policies but not for anyone else? You've had a good few hours to come up with something. :pac:


    No need ta. If I might plagiarise your sig, I actually do live in the real world (and it’s not pretty at the moment, even if you do get rid of all those horrible bluehshirts :()

    Nothing more than further deflection.

    Another poster who likes to act the big wig with fancy words, and poncey slogans, but when challenged about silly statements they've made refuses to answer.

    As I've told you on numerous threads, if you wish to discuss policies and mandates of any other political Party, please do so on another thread.

    Another attempt to derail a thread.

    We're discussing a property tax here.


  • #153
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Don't do that. Join the Irish Democratic Party, they will all be good people.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76600414

    I'm still waiting on your response to your earlier 'misleading' info you posted (again)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80440149&postcount=52


  • #154
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    There is no end of whataboutery that can be engaged in if one decides to follow that line of argument. What about politician's expense? The HSE budget? Civil service pay? The social welfare bill? You could keep going till the end of time with it if you wanted. Yet who's saying you can't tackle more than one thing at a time?

    One of the (many) things that got us into this mess was a taxation system that contributed to the boom and bust cycle. By taxing transactions (stamp duty) rather than property, we got into a situation where we had bloated coffers in the good times (and an incentive for the government to keep them going) and a sudden shrinkage in revenues when things went bad. Having a property tax allows for a more stable and predictable source of tax revenue.


  • #155
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    dvpower wrote: »
    What's all this about ould wans being kicked out of their homes?
    More scaremongering?

    Not at all. No scaremongering. Just basic common sense. A property tax based on the value of an owner occupied home, irrespective of the income into that home, will inevitably create cases where people will not be able to afford that tax.
    They will have no choice but to sell up and move out - literally forced from their own homes that have been already been bought and paid for.


  • #156
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    lugha wrote: »

    I am not sure how anyone can decide that the property tax is unjust before we know the details of it? :confused:



    .

    Let me ask you this Lugha, no need for a side step, or further deflection.
    A simple yes or no to this question will do.

    You have been urging folk reading this thread to register for the HHC, and not be a 'tax evader' then, you follow that up by coming on here, and basiclly sneering at anyone who decides they cant afford to pay a tax on their home,
    I am not sure how anyone can decide that the property tax is unjust before we know the details of it? :confused:

    The question I would like a yes, or no answer to is this.

    Would you sign your name with a loan provider/financial institution for any financial service, while neither knowing.

    A: What it actually is your signing your name to.
    But also
    B: not being told what your repayment sums would be?

    Yes or no?


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  • #157
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    Not at all. No scaremongering. Just basic common sense. A property tax based on the value of an owner occupied home, irrespective of the income into that home, will inevitably create cases where people will not be able to afford that tax.
    They will have no choice but to sell up and move out - literally forced from their own homes that have been already been bought and paid for.

    In fairness, I think you may be incorrect about this. I don't recall anyone saying that people would be obliged to sell their homes. The only thing that's been suggested to date by the government is that they may get a court order for an attachment to someone's earnings if they refuse to pay.


  • #158
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    ...One of the (many) things that got us into this mess was a taxation system that contributed to the boom and bust cycle. By taxing transactions (stamp duty) rather than property, we got into a situation where we had bloated coffers in the good times (and an incentive for the government to keep them going) and a sudden shrinkage in revenues when things went bad. Having a property tax allows for a more stable and predictable source of tax revenue.

    There is very good sense in the above thinking - but there has to be safe-guards too, as well as recognition that a person/family which has bought a property, is still able to live in the standard they previously had when they bought the said property.

    Livelihoods (incomings) go up and down, for all the sake of a price of a property which has been bought at one stage.
    Meanwhile time has moved on and living monetary circumstances has changed possible - so this HAS to be allowed for too.
    To not do so is possible helping to shove people now already on the poverty line, under it is a wide brushing stroke of a tax on a property that was bought years ago when ones weekly earnings were much possibly different.

    I hope the above makes sense in what I'm trying to say.


  • #159
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    There is no end of whataboutery that can be engaged in if one decides to follow that line of argument. What about politician's expense? The HSE budget? Civil service pay? The social welfare bill? You could keep going till the end of time with it if you wanted. Yet who's saying you can't tackle more than one thing at a time?

    One of the (many) things that got us into this mess was a taxation system that contributed to the boom and bust cycle. By taxing transactions (stamp duty) rather than property, we got into a situation where we had bloated coffers in the good times (and an incentive for the government to keep them going) and a sudden shrinkage in revenues when things went bad. Having a property tax allows for a more stable and predictable source of tax revenue.


    That sentence in bold sounds all very cuddly on the face of it, doesn't it, but have you stopped to think what it means in practice?
    It means, and it can only mean, that people will still have to hand over large sums of money to the government whether they can afford to or not.

    'You lost your job? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'
    'Your husband died and you're raising three kids on a widows pension? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'
    'You've just retired and you could never afford a pension because you bought your house during the massive boom of the naughties? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'


  • #160
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    dvpower wrote: »
    What's all this about ould wans being kicked out of their homes?
    More scaremongering?

    Not at all. No scaremongering. Just basic common sense. A property tax based on the value of an owner occupied home, irrespective of the income into that home, will inevitably create cases where people will not be able to afford that tax.
    They will have no choice but to sell up and move out - literally forced from their own homes that have been already been bought and paid for.
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.


  • #161
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    Seriously, you don't understand?
    This depresses me!


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  • #162
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    The only thing that's obvious is that you're a bit thick.


  • #163
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore



    'You lost your job? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'
    'Your husband died and you're raising three kids on a widows pension? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'
    'You've just retired and you could never afford a pension because you bought your house during the massive boom of the naughties? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'

    ]


    In what parallel universe do you live? This is how the world works.


  • #164
    Tin Foil Hat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭Tin Foil Hat


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    In fairness, I think you may be incorrect about this. I don't recall anyone saying that people would be obliged to sell their homes. The only thing that's been suggested to date by the government is that they may get a court order for an attachment to someone's earnings if they refuse to pay.

    I didn't say refuse. I said 'can't'
    Do you deny that a valuation based property tax will throw up cases where people simple will not afford, and have no hope of affording, the €600, €800, €1000 that the government will ask from them on an annual basis?


  • #165
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    professore wrote: »
    In what parallel universe do you live? This is how the world works.

    That don't make it right - and its something that can be addressed if we can bother our backsides to!


  • #166
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    Ah youth.......... it's not all about buying.......


  • #167
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Biggins wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    Seriously, you don't understand?
    This depresses me!

    I understand all too well. Sh1t happens. People fall on hard times ask the time. The country is broke.


  • #168
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    And to the person who was born in the house they now live in? (not bought it)

    The house the Govt have now decided is worth whatever figure they decide to place on it in the future, yet the home owner simply cannot afford to pay it?

    Then what?


  • #169
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    The only thing that's obvious is that you're a bit thick.

    You have convinced me with your well constructed argument.


  • #170
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Ghandee wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    And to the person who was born in the house they now live in? (not bought it)

    The house the Govt have now decided is worth whatever figure they decide to place on it in the future, yet the home owner simply cannot afford to pay it?

    Then what?

    Sell it ?

    So your saying someone who inherits a house through an accident of birth deserves special treatment over someone who worked like a dog to buy one?


  • #171
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,190 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Taxes are fines for doing well in life.


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  • #172
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    professore wrote: »
    I understand all too well. Sh1t happens. People fall on hard times ask the time. The country is broke.

    Not too broke to pay the city council managers (of which your location is based) salary of €162,062 per year.

    Oh no, that cant be touched though:confused:


  • #173
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    professore wrote: »
    I understand all too well. Sh1t happens. People fall on hard times ask the time. The country is broke.

    ...And it might be you some day (I hope not) in a dire situation through no fault of your own.

    ...But as already alluded to by another good poster "Tough schite... cough up!"
    professore wrote: »
    Sell it ?

    Yea, its that easy - with negative equity and homes not selling anyway!


  • #174
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Biggins wrote: »
    Livelihoods (incomings) go up and down, for all the sake of a price of a property which has been bought at one stage.
    Meanwhile time has moved on and living monetary circumstances has changed possible - so this HAS to be allowed for too.
    To not do so is possible helping to shove people now already on the poverty line, under it is a wide brushing stroke of a tax on a property that was bought years ago when ones weekly earnings were much possibly different.

    I hope the above makes sense in what I'm trying to say.
    Tin Foil Hat wrote: »
    That sentence in bold sounds all very cuddly on the face of it, doesn't it, but have you stopped to think what it means in practice?
    It means, and it can only mean, that people will still have to hand over large sums of money to the government whether they can afford to or not.

    'You lost your job? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'
    'Your husband died and you're raising three kids on a widows pension? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'
    'You've just retired and you could never afford a pension because you bought your house during the massive boom of the naughties? Tough sh1t. Pay me.'

    Both good points there. You do have to have some consideration of if/when there are cases of hardship.

    One thing to bear in mind is that people will be hit by alternative revenue raising measures as well, whether is raising other taxes or cutting public spending.

    From my own point of view, if I had the choice between increased income tax (which impacts the labour market), increased VAT (which harms consumption) or a property tax for example, I'd opt for the latter. Either way I'm paying more tax, but at least its moving some way towards reform of the taxation system.

    I mentioned this on another thread, but it was the Commission on Taxation report that first raised the idea of the Property Tax. It contains a fair bit of interesting reading on the reasoning behind it and was what went a long way towards convincing me that it was a good idea.


  • #175
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    Some posters are posing the question about an alternative to the property tax, which as pointed out in my previous post is really a form of the old 'rates' system, now that we know it will be value based. It was a high and an extremely inequitable tax, as it bore no relation to the house owners ability to pay. Local Authority houses were exempt which was another inequity in the system.

    Nowadays the situation is worse as job instability has increased and are scarce due to the deep recession. Mortgage values vary greatly depending in what decade you bought your house and lots of mortgage holders are in arrears.

    Any tax, unpopular as all taxes are, (call them charges if you will) should at least be based on one's ability to pay. It's governments job to ensure there is equity, they're paid handsomely to come up with a alternative and fair solution, but to try, in possibly many instances, to get blood from a stone just ain't going to work.


  • #176
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,562 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Ghandee wrote: »
    And to the person who was born in the house they now live in? (not bought it)

    The house the Govt have now decided is worth whatever figure they decide to place on it in the future, yet the home owner simply cannot afford to pay it?

    Then what?

    There might a system like in the North.

    http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-cant-pay-my-rate-bill


  • #177
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Ghandee wrote: »
    Let me ask you this Lugha, no need for a side step, or further deflection.

    I hope it will be a proper question and not like your last one when you asked what previous governments did after entering a bail out programme! :rolleyes:

    Ghandee wrote: »
    Would you sign your name with a loan provider/financial institution for any financial service, while neither knowing.

    A: What it actually is your signing your name to.
    But also
    B: not being told what your repayment sums would be?

    Yes or no?

    This is in effect exactly what happens when you sign up for a variable rate loan! Rates can and do go up over time. And an increase of even 0.25% in a variable rate would add €500 per annum to a €200K mortgage. And that’s in the ball park of what the property tax will be.

    More generally, if you live and work in any economy, you implicitly accept in advance any changes in taxes / allowances that any future government might introduce.

    And in terms of our local mess here, anybody who has even a rudimentary understanding of the scale of our problem would appreciate that there will be a lot of pain for us in the future, one way or another, without the government having to spell it out for us.
    Ghandee wrote: »
    And to the person who was born in the house they now live in? (not bought it)

    The house the Govt have now decided is worth whatever figure they decide to place on it in the future, yet the home owner simply cannot afford to pay it?

    Then what?

    Attach it as a liability to the house. If it is bequeathed to somebody then they will have got themselves a free, er asset, and I would have no qualms with tapping such people to shoulder a little more of the burden.


  • #178
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There might a system like in the North.

    http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-cant-pay-my-rate-bill

    Fingers crossed then in hope!


  • #179
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    professore wrote: »
    Sell it ?

    So your saying someone who inherits a house through an accident of birth deserves special treatment over someone who worked like a dog to buy one?

    No, what I'm saying is that it would be completely unfair to simply turf someone out of the home they were born and reared in because the Govt have decided to place a charge on living in it.

    Its not rocket science tbh, although I get the feeling your being deliberately obtuse.


  • #180
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There might a system like in the North.

    http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-cant-pay-my-rate-bill

    Well they have got everything right so far regarding the household charge........


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  • #181
    steamengine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭steamengine


    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    A sweeping statement if ever there was one !!!


  • #182
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Ghandee wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    I understand all too well. Sh1t happens. People fall on hard times ask the time. The country is broke.

    Not too broke to pay the city council managers (of which your location is based) salary of €162,062 per year.

    Oh no, that cant be touched though:confused:

    I can't do anything about that.

    This thread is about a value based property tax. The alternative is a flat tax where micheal o'leary pays the same as someone on minimum wage then value based is fairer. Not perfect, but as fair as possible.


  • #183
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    There might a system like in the North.

    http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/what-happens-if-i-cant-pay-my-rate-bill

    Are you not going to make the slightest attempt to discuss the mistruths you posted earlier?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80440149&postcount=52


  • #184
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    steamengine wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    In that case they obviously bought houses they couldn't afford.

    A sweeping statement if ever there was one !!!

    Or can't afford anymore.


  • #185
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    professore wrote: »
    Or can't afford anymore.

    I see you come from the Gillette Mach three school of home valuation.


  • #186
    touts
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,557 ✭✭✭touts


    Best of luck to them coming up with a value on my house as my neighbours house has been on the market for 2 years and the price is now 60% what we paid and still have a mortgage for. They havent had any serious interest and if they did a deal in the morning they would be lucky to get 20% of the original price.

    They need to start charging for services. If you are on a public sewage system thats €100. There are lights on the road outside your house €20. A public playground within one mile €10. A library within 10 miles €10. That sort of thing.

    But that would involve work by our public service so they will base it on some made up fantasy value of what the house would sell for in happy happy dreamy dreamy land with no recession and you could continue to live in it rent free till you die. It would also hit those same public servants hardest as they all live in Dublin with all the free public services.


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  • #187
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    touts wrote: »
    They need to start charging for services. If you are on a public sewage system thats €100. There are lights on the road outside your house €20. A public playground within one mile €10. A library within 10 miles €10. That sort of thing.

    Do you think proximity to public services would increase or decrease the value of a house and therefore it's tax liability? Do you think charging individually for every single public service would increase or decrease the administration budget for a local authority?


  • #188
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    Originally Posted by Ghandee
    Would you sign your name with a loan provider/financial institution for any financial service, while neither knowing.

    A: What it actually is your signing your name to.
    But also
    B: not being told what your repayment sums would be?

    Yes or no?



    lugha wrote: »
    This is in effect exactly what happens when you sign up for a variable rate loan! Rates can and do go up over time. And an increase of even 0.25% in a variable rate would add €500 per annum to a €200K mortgage. And that’s in the ball park of what the property tax will be.

    More generally, if you live and work in any economy, you implicitly accept in advance any changes in taxes / allowances that any future government might introduce.

    And in terms of our local mess here, anybody who has even a rudimentary understanding of the scale of our problem would appreciate that there will be a lot of pain for us in the future, one way or another, without the government having to spell it out for us.

    YES!
    .

    FYP!


  • #189
    bonzos
    Registered Users Posts: 806 ✭✭✭bonzos


    If an alcoholic asked you more money and promised not to spend it on drink would you hand over money?...Not a nope!So why give money to a county council which is top heavy with overpaid wasters who have proven that they have no respect for taxpayers money.


  • #190
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    The devil is in the detail of how they value the houses. The only way they can practically do it is look at house sales in an area, or failing that, asking prices, and base it on that. Like VRT.


  • #191
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Ghandee wrote: »
    FYP!
    Well spotted! I would and I did. As would you and as (probably) did you!

    Have you any more questions? :pac:


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  • #192
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,321 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    professore wrote: »
    The devil is in the detail of how they value the houses. The only way they can practically do it is look at house sales in an area, or failing that, asking prices, and base it on that. Like VRT.

    It couldn't be based on asking prices.

    Around here there are houses on the market for 3 years with no viewers because sellers are still asking silly money.

    I also bought my house 2yrs ago and a house close by reduced by €40k in the last year and still can't sell. Would I be valued at what I paid or what the going rate for houses is in my area?

    I don't envy them trying to work this one out.


  • #193
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    professore wrote: »
    I can't do anything about that.
    .

    You can you know.

    You could refuse to register/pay for any hhc or proposed property tax, let them fix the problems at the top first.


  • #194
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    NIMAN wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    The devil is in the detail of how they value the houses. The only way they can practically do it is look at house sales in an area, or failing that, asking prices, and base it on that. Like VRT.

    It couldn't be based on asking prices.

    Around here there are houses on the market for 3 years with no viewers because sellers are still asking silly money.

    I also bought my house 2yrs ago and a house close by reduced by €40k in the last year and still can't sell. Would I be valued at what I paid or what the going rate for houses is in my area?

    I don't envy them trying to work this one out.

    I agree it'll just be a guess in a lot of areas.


  • #195
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Ghandee wrote: »
    professore wrote: »
    I can't do anything about that.
    .

    You can you know.

    You could refuse to register/pay for any hhc or proposed property tax, let them fix the problems at the top first.

    And how will that help? Where I live the people with bumper stickers saying they won't pay are all driving 2012 cars.

    If it gets bad enough I'll get on the streets but not yet. We're starting to make progress on a bank deal, which is our best chance.


  • #196
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    bonzos wrote: »
    If an alcoholic asked you more money and promised not to spend it on drink would you hand over money?...Not a nope!So why give money to a county council which is top heavy with overpaid wasters who have proven that they have no respect for taxpayers money.

    Crude but correct.


  • #197
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Having a property tax allows for a more stable and predictable source of tax revenue.

    A predictable source of revenue for who, Vlad. Definitely not for the people whose bills have gone through the ceiling in the past 4/5 years, while wages have been cut everywhere(ok, maybe some people received some recompense through increments and rises, but not everyone). There are people out there with no more than €20 a week disposable income and a lot of them are liable for all the taxes coming down the road. What do we say to them.


  • #198
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    professore wrote: »
    And how will that help? Where I live the people with bumper stickers saying they won't pay are all driving 2012 cars.
    .

    Which they'll have paid vrt on, motor tax on, more than 60c in the euro per litre at the pumps.......

    They've also possibly paid tens of thousands in stamp duty on the houses they live in too?


  • #199
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    professore wrote: »
    The devil is in the detail of how they value the houses. The only way they can practically do it is look at house sales in an area, or failing that, asking prices, and base it on that. Like VRT.

    If its based on current market values and is index linked taxes could reduce. Property values are falling and will fall further.

    It needs to be more scientific than just value of house but should take account of location, services provided, number of people in household and ability to pay.


  • #200
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    lugha wrote: »
    Well the particular issue you are focused on (government members / officials living the good life as they go about their business) is something every government I remember, of all parties, did in the past and I expect every government in the future will probably do.

    I regard it as frivolous, but if you think it is important then it is important.


    Its very important when we are in the worst recession that I remember.


  • #201
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    darkhorse wrote: »
    Its very important when we are in the worst recession that I remember.

    For people who obviously know we are in a recession/depression and ate pushing for more taxes including this proposed property tax there is plenty of people on here (always the same) who feel they need to defend wasteful spending and the gravy train the politicians are still on. Every time it's mentioned the same people are on saying its fluff and not worth worrying about. "just give us your money...I need it for my undocumented expenses".


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