Ireland World Cup Bid for 2023 or 2027 - GAA coming on board...

Heroditas

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I don't get this argument surely if you where sitting 15 rows back in a dedicated rugby ground you'd have the same net affect?

The stands in GAA stadia are quite shallow, meaning that if you're a good bit further back from the pitch than you would be in a rugby/soccer stadium.

Regarding the argument about hotels, good grief we're overflowing with the bloody things.
The RWC would also be at a time when the tourist season is winding down so overcrowding might not be such an issue.
2 stadia in Dublin
1 in Belfast
1 in Galway
1/2 in Limerick
1 in Cork
Maybe 1 in Clones or Waterford
Farm it out to Wales and Scotland - stadium each - job done.

GerM

An issue I can see is the stadia that are proposed being too big. The likes of Fitzgerald or Pearse will not come close to being filled for a WC pool game. The stadia in NZ were nearly all smaller. Pearse is the smallest of the proposed GAA grounds and would have been the third biggest ground if it was in last year's WC. For pool games in NZ's own group stadia had large empty sections last year. Even quarter final matches had empty seats in what is considered to be a rugby mad country. With our small population, I wouldn't be surprised to see these proposed stadia count against us to an extent. Thomond and the RDS are the perfect size for WC games. If we're using GAA grounds, somewhere like Celtic Park in Derry would be ideal; it holds 22,000 and is in a city that has its own airport and a relatively short drive to Belfast.

ormond lad

GerM wrote: »

An issue I can see is the stadia that are proposed being too big. The likes of Fitzgerald or Pearse will not come close to being filled for a WC pool game. The stadia in NZ were nearly all smaller. Pearse is the smallest of the proposed GAA grounds and would have been the third biggest ground if it was in last year's WC. For pool games in NZ's own group stadia had large empty sections last year. Even quarter final matches had empty seats in what is considered to be a rugby mad country. With our small population, I wouldn't be surprised to see these proposed stadia count against us to an extent. Thomond and the RDS are the perfect size for WC games. If we're using GAA grounds, somewhere like Celtic Park in Derry would be ideal; it holds 22,000 and is in a city that has its own airport and a relatively short drive to Belfast.

You would bigger stadiums for a world cup here. attendances would be much bigger than last year in NZ.
All the 6 nations sides would need big stadiums for their games as would NZ, SA and AUS(who would have big support travelling up and have big expat support)
Comparing a world cup held in NZ to one held in Ireland is wrong as the crowds would be much bigger here with european fans able to come over to games on weekend trips which wasnt possible in NZ for anyone but Australia

.ak

There's also the case that most of those capacities are based on standing numbers. If you put seats in it'd dramatically drop, no?

Diamondmaker

1st post in Donkeys Years ! But as one who attended the RWC in NZ and France I can see Ireland working.

We have better and way more, hotels than NZ, better roads and rail netork also. Euro fights and internal flights far cheaper and more options also.

Less NH supporters travelled to NZ due to cost / distance. Not an issue in an Irish bid.

6N teams would base at home and fly in, as would the fans and the further afield teams would come in and tour. Ireland is a great size country for an event like the RWC where you dont have to worry about segregating fans one from the other.

None of the 4 NZ stadia I visited on North Island is superior to an Irish equivilant.

Its far enough away that any of the issues we do have could be resolved.

Only question is who would we be up against ? We could topple the Welsh and Scots....US or Canada be up for this one >??

WOudl be great to go home for a RWC with the little fella

iwasonbwh

The stadia here would be larger than NZ, however compared to France 2007, they're slightly smaller.

FRANCE 2007

Stade de France 80,000
Cardiff Millennium Stadium 73,350
Edinburgh Murrayfield 68,000
Marseille Stade Vélodrome 59,500
Paris Parc des Princes 47,870
Lens Stade Félix-Bollaert 41,400
Lyon Stade de Gerland 41,100
Nantes Stade de la Beaujoire 38,100
Toulouse Stadium de Toulouse 35,700
Saint-Étienne Stade Geoffroy-Guichard 35,650
Bordeaux Stade Chaban-Delmas 34,440
Montpellier Stade de la Mosson 33,900

ENGLAND 2015

London Wembley 90,000
London Twickenham 82,000
Manchester Old Trafford 76,212
Cardiff Millennium Stadium 74,500
London Emirates Stadium 60,355
Newcastle St. James' Park 52,387
Liverpool Anfield 45,276
Leeds Elland Road 37,900
Southampton St. Mary's Stadium 32,689
Coventry Ricoh Arena 32,609
Leicester Welford Road Expansion to 30,000
Gloucester Kingsholm Stadium Expansion to 19,700

IRELAND

Dublin Croke Park 82,300
Cardiff Millennium Stadium 73,350 (WALES)
Edinburgh Murrayfield 68,000 (SCOTLAND)
Thurles Semple Stadium 53,500
Dublin Aviva Stadium 51,700
Limerick Gaelic Grounds 49,500
Cork Pairc Uí Chaoimh 43,500
Killarney Fitzgerald Stadium 43,000
Clones St. Tiernach's Park 36,000
Galway Pearse Stadium 34,000
Limerick Thomond Park 26,500
Belfast New Ravenhill 18,200

GerM

ormond lad wrote: »

You would bigger stadiums for a world cup here. attendances would be much bigger than last year in NZ.
All the 6 nations sides would need big stadiums for their games as would NZ, SA and AUS(who would have big support travelling up and have big expat support)
Comparing a world cup held in NZ to one held in Ireland is wrong as the crowds would be much bigger here with european fans able to come over to games on weekend trips which wasnt possible in NZ for anyone but Australia

I'd be assuming that those countries would have their games in the bigger stadia. England, Wales, France, NZ would play in the likes of CP, AP, Thomond and one or two large GAA grounds. However, we're still looking at a large number of games that will have very little travelling support and very little domestic interest being proposed for stadiums that fit over 30,000 people. We really need about 5 grounds that hold between 18,000 to 28,000.

There will be about 3 matches in every pool that are contested by sides outside of the top 8 in the world. There will be very little interest in these games. Also, I don't see there being huge travelling support for games such as the southern hemisphere sides or France facing a lower tier nation. If we have grounds that are all well in excess of 30,000, we will almost certainly have a large number of games in half empty stadia.

.ak, fair point on the seating. I'm not sure what the scenario is there though as terraces are allowed for rugby and most of the grounds in NZ had significant standing areas.

GerM

iwasonbwh wrote: »

The stadia here would be larger than NZ, however compared to France 2007, they're slightly smaller.

True but the population of France is about 65 million compared to about 6 million for this island. They can put a pool game in a rugby mad city like Toulouse and have a population of over 1 million in the metropolitan area. The entire province of Munster has about the same population.

Tox56

Filling the grounds will be the big issue. For England's bid, apart from the big capital cities like London and Cardiff, they could call upon the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds who aren't all rugby mad, but have populations well over half a million.

Even the smaller cities they could use like Southampton, Leicester and Coventry are all 2 or 3 times bigger than Cork or Limerick.

I just don't think we're big enough to hold something like this unfortunately.

ArmaniJeanss

jm08 wrote: »

The 6Ns teams would probably just fly in for their games (which is why they might be very supportive of an Ireland bid).

Diamondmaker wrote: »

6N teams would base at home and fly in,

Minor point but why would teams base at home and fly in for matches. They didn't do so for the France World Cup so why do so for an Irish World Cup?
Having one base and staying there, rather than travelling back and forth, is surely the best way of maximising your chances.

jm08

New Zealand had 133K rugby tourists - considering our proximity to Europe, I think we can do as well as that. (I seem to remember that something like 60K Irish people went to the world cup in France alone).

Seems to me that all the venues mentioned means that each city all have a large & a small venue - i.e., Belfast has Casement & Ravenhill. Dublin would have 3 as the RDS would probably be available as well. Cork would have Pairc Ui Caoimh & Musgrave which would be suited to a big and a small team being centred there. I'd imagine the 6Ns teams would just fly in for the games the day before. I'm sure Michael O'Leary would come up with a plan to line RyanAir's pockets!

For the small teams, it might be a good idea to get a town to adopt them who would probably turn up and support them then for their games.

jm08

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Minor point but why would teams base at home and fly in for matches. They didn't do so for the France World Cup so why do so for an Irish World Cup?
Having one base and staying there, rather than travelling back and forth, is surely the best way of maximising your chances.

It might have had something to do with getting used to the heat in France as it was still fairly hot at the start of the tournament in early September.

For the 6Ns and HCup teams are well used to flying in a day or two before the match.

irishbucsfan

Every team would have to be based here

duckysauce

Tox56 wrote: »

Filling the grounds will be the big issue. For England's bid, apart from the big capital cities like London and Cardiff, they could call upon the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds who aren't all rugby mad, but have populations well over half a million.

Even the smaller cities they could use like Southampton, Leicester and Coventry are all 2 or 3 times bigger than Cork or Limerick.

I just don't think we're big enough to hold something like this unfortunately.

If the irfu price it properly they will fill them , there would be massive interest in a one off event like this, if it is priced right. The last wc was priced way to high for the pool games and that's why they were half empty. The pool games with the so called lesser nations are sometimes the most entertaining. Hope this comes off.

GerM

Tox56 wrote: »

Filling the grounds will be the big issue. For England's bid, apart from the big capital cities like London and Cardiff, they could call upon the likes of Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds who aren't all rugby mad, but have populations well over half a million.

Even the smaller cities they could use like Southampton, Leicester and Coventry are all 2 or 3 times bigger than Cork or Limerick.

I just don't think we're big enough to hold something like this unfortunately.

I don't think it's a matter of size really but a matter of being capable of putting on the event and possessing adequate facilities to do so. France was the exception to the rule in terms of the stadia they provided. All other countries that have hosted have had a large number of games in small stadia. In 2011, NZ had a raft of grounds in and around the 20k mark. The same was true of Australia in 2003 with large towns hosting games. In 1999, Borders ground in Galashiels hosted games (capacity approx 6k) and the likes of Welford Road and Stradey Park were used.

I think we're able to host the tournament if we put in some work between now and then in bringing things up to scratch. I would certainly worry though if we do intend to use these large GAA grounds though. We can't sell out Lansdowne for some Irish internationals. Not a chance we'll get 30k along to view the likes of Fiji, Argentina or Italy in less densely populated areas let alone Russia or Uruguay.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Every team would have to be based here

Why? Bearing in mind that France hosted the last world cup and France played NZ in their QF in Cardiff.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

Why? Bearing in mind that France hosted the last world cup and France played NZ in their QF in Cardiff.

For fairness. Bear in mind everyone was based in France!

.ak

Would the schools/clubs facilities not be used in this case? Would they not be of standard for visiting teams?

GerM

duckysauce wrote: »

If the irfu price it properly they will fill them , there would be massive interest in a one off event like this, if it is priced right. The last wc was priced way to high for the pool games and that's why they were half empty. The pool games with the so called lesser nations are sometimes the most entertaining. Hope this comes off.

As a nation, we love our big day out but the pool games won't constitute that. A quick glance even through GAA attendances shows that these grounds 3are rarely close to being at capacity despite GAA being our national game and hugely popular. There isn't the population to sustain these stadia. It's madness having 40k+ grounds in places like Killarney and Castlebar when they're filled once in a blue moon.

I'd love if we identified smaller grounds where we could put the same amount of work/investment into them that we would the larger ones and instead of turning a 40k stadium into a passable venue, turn a 20k stadium into a great small ground that could put on a great tournament.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

For fairness. Bear in mind everyone was based in France!

It was hardly fair that Wales played Australia in Cardiff no matter where Wales based themselves!

Who cares where they base themselves? If they wanted to, they could base themselves here - I'm sure none of them would end up in a hotel in some industrial estate miles from nowhere as happened to Ireland in Bordeaux.

irishbucsfan

jm08 wrote: »

It was hardly fair that Wales played Australia in Cardiff no matter where Wales based themselves!

Who cares where they base themselves? If they wanted to, they could base themselves here - I'm sure none of them would end up in a hotel in some industrial estate miles from nowhere as happened to Ireland in Bordeaux.

Why wasn't it fair? That's like saying its not fair New Zealand got to play at home in the last world cup! The games where scheduled before anyone knew who'd be involved.

You can't give a bunch of teams the benefit of training at home because they're lucky enough to be located close to the host nation. Everyone should operate under the same circumstances, bar the hosts.

ArmaniJeanss

jm08 wrote: »

Why? Bearing in mind that France hosted the last world cup and France played NZ in their QF in Cardiff.

That raises an interesting point.
If powerful France couldn't swing the vote for a solo world cup without having to give up 8 games to Scotland and Wales inc a quarter final, then what chance Ireland being able to bink a solo World Cup?

There a lots of new countries lining up to host it ; Italy, Argentina, and USA/Canada as newbies, and Australia and SouthAfrica believing that it'll soon be their turn again.
So how likely is it that Scotland and Wales would vote for an Ireland solo bid knowing that it would mean that they themselves wouldn't get to host it for another 20 years? Little chance imo.
I'd say a joint 3 way bid is most likely.

Trained Monkey

Could the 8 rugby playing countries be drawn into quarter finals? That way they could use The Aviva, The RDS, Thomond Park and Croke Park. Wouldnt be a huge undertaking. Quarters finals on one weekend. Semi finals on Tuesday and Wednesday midweek and the final on the Saturday in Croke Park?

Casander

jm08 wrote: »

Bearing in mind that France hosted the last world cup and France played NZ in their QF in Cardiff.

I'd be really against this kind of carry on, similarly an Irish bid utilising Scottish or Welsh stadiums.

The whole purpose of such an event is to stage a showpiece festival of the sport in a given location, where it will be celebrated with a purpose and atmosphere that can't be created anywhere else. Just doesn't feel the same otherwise. I feel it cheapens the tournament to have the likes of Wales get to play in Cardiff, like in 2007.

If we give this a swing, let's do it alone.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why wasn't it fair? That's like saying its not fair New Zealand got to play at home in the last world cup! The games where scheduled before anyone knew who'd be involved.

You can't give a bunch of teams the benefit of training at home because they're lucky enough to be located close to the host nation. Everyone should operate under the same circumstances, bar the hosts.

It might not be much of an advantage to train at home. I seem to remember reading that Wales thought it was a bit of an advantage to be well away from being in a goldfish bowl of south Wales for the duration of the last world cup.

jm08

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

That raises an interesting point.
If powerful France couldn't swing the vote for a solo world cup without having to give up 8 games to Scotland and Wales inc a quarter final, then what chance Ireland being able to bink a solo World Cup?

England won't be bidding so neither Scotland or Wales will be able to play one off against the other. France won't be bidding either as they have just had it. The Millenium is going to be used again in 2015, so there is a good chance that the 6Ns countries would support an Ireland bid (as it would give them a bit of an advantage over SH teams).

There a lots of new countries lining up to host it ; Italy, Argentina, and USA/Canada as newbies, and Australia and SouthAfrica believing that it'll soon be their turn again.

Sure - and Ireland has as good a chance as any of them.

So how likely is it that Scotland and Wales would vote for an Ireland solo bid knowing that it would mean that they themselves wouldn't get to host it for another 20 years? Little chance imo.
I'd say a joint 3 way bid is most likely.

Scotland and Wales have being doing very well up to now with games from France & England. If Ireland doesn't want to do a bid with them, they won't be hosting it anyway.

Podge_irl

I think there is a concious effort being made to move away from split country RWCs and have everything in one place. I would dislike if we farmed games off to Wales and Scotland - and we certainly don't need to.

I'm excited about this though it all very much depends on who else bids.

TheKeenMachine

GerM wrote: »

As a nation, we love our big day out but the pool games won't constitute that. A quick glance even through GAA attendances shows that these grounds 3are rarely close to being at capacity despite GAA being our national game and hugely popular. There isn't the population to sustain these stadia. It's madness having 40k+ grounds in places like Killarney and Castlebar when they're filled once in a blue moon.

I'd love if we identified smaller grounds where we could put the same amount of work/investment into them that we would the larger ones and instead of turning a 40k stadium into a passable venue, turn a 20k stadium into a great small ground that could put on a great tournament.

One thing important to remember is that rugby is one of the fastest growing sports in the world. In eleven years, the fanbase for a RWC will be far larger than it is today.

OldRio

2023.
2027.
Just one thought comes to my mind.
Will OAP tickets be cheaper ?

ArmaniJeanss

GerM wrote: »

I don't think it's a matter of size really but a matter of being capable of putting on the event and possessing adequate facilities to do so. France was the exception to the rule in terms of the stadia they provided. All other countries that have hosted have had a large number of games in small stadia. In 2011, NZ had a raft of grounds in and around the 20k mark. The same was true of Australia in 2003 with large towns hosting games. In 1999, Borders ground in Galashiels hosted games (capacity approx 6k) and the likes of Welford Road and Stradey Park were used.

I think we're able to host the tournament if we put in some work between now and then in bringing things up to scratch. I would certainly worry though if we do intend to use these large GAA grounds though. We can't sell out Lansdowne for some Irish internationals. Not a chance we'll get 30k along to view the likes of Fiji, Argentina or Italy in less densely populated areas let alone Russia or Uruguay.

Don't think you can compare it to NZ 2011 and say we match up. Its generally accepted that NZ was a fairly crap bid and they pulled in every favour they had in order to get it over the line. Going further back to 1999 and 6K stadiums and thinking its somehow relevant is madness.

England 2015 and Japan 2019 bids are a better comparison as to what is expected going forward, 6 or 7 stadia with 45,000+ capacity. The sort of thing which our potentials rivals for the bid like South Africa, Italy and USA/Canada could provide, and thus what our bid will need to aim at.