Red Luas line should be closed

popebenny16

when the saggart line opened i used one of the P&R sites (a free one, i think it is the second stop). I didnt think much of it till we were coming back that evening and I suddenly realised it was in the middle of nowhere on a tram with long enough gaps after belgard. On my own i wouldnt care much, but i was wary of my kids and was anxious to see what state the car would be in when i got back. It was fine, but the only car in the place. Since then i use the Red Cow.

norrie rugger

popebenny16 wrote: »

when the saggart line opened i used one of the P&R sites (a free one, i think it is the second stop). I didnt think much of it till we were coming back that evening and I suddenly realised it was in the middle of nowhere on a tram with long enough gaps after belgard. On my own i wouldnt care much, but i was wary of my kids and was anxious to see what state the car would be in when i got back. It was fine, but the only car in the place. Since then i use the Red Cow.

so a good experience is a negative?

AlekSmart

listermint wrote: »

While i agree with various elements you have drawn, The fact is that these park and ride sites are empty because our economy crashed in 2008, house building stopped. Jobs were lost all over the place and there arent near the levels of ordinary workers that these services were planned for.

Additionally I know of no one from blessington that wouldnt just prefer to stay in the comfort of their car to get to work etc. It has nothing to do with feeling safe. Its ease of operation. jump in my car drive to city and listen to my radio... or park up at a park and ride wait around for a luas then get a connection then travel a further 40 minutes to get to the city centre and walk whereever your going.

The line suffered from stinky planning and trying to service too many areas, because all the TD's had their hands in the pie. It takes too long to get where it needs to go and additionally services many areas along the way already had in place adequate bus services.

I do also have to agree, that having used the entire line since its inception there are users here blowing it totally out of proportion and clearly havent used these types of systems globally. You must all write for the daily mail.

Can only speak for myself on this but when abroad I would tend to use public transport by preference.

I have indeed witnessed unsavoury carry-on on both London's Tube and Paris's Metro.

However given the age and scope of both these systems I would expect this,and I have to say I noted the speed and ferocity of the official response,particularly the RATP Sureté.

However that is not the issue here at all.

My own perception,is of a brand-spanking-new and mightly expensive LRT system which should,particularly in a recessionary environment,be performing at a far more effective and efficient rate.

The issues of comfort and convienence are all part of the package for sure,but so is security and the sense of a system which has standards of operation and who'se proprietors will make every effort to maintain them.

If keeping one's head down,avoiding eye contact and maintaining an imaginary sterile space are to be the defining components of a Luas Red Line customer then fair enough,many of us do it no matter where,BUT to sit,watch,listen and experience the creeping rot of anti-socialism is,to me,simply surrendering a big dollop of one's own Civil-Rights in order to placate increasingly self-confident savages.

It's a choice,but it should be OUR choice,as contributors rather than that of an ever increasing number of petty criminals,substance abusers,and assorted ne'er do wells.

end of the road

get a couple of army or x army lads on it and allow them to give such anti-social trash a good old beating and put the fear of god in them.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

from what I read on RUI if line A closes then Kildare-Waterford rail service will go soon after.

hmmmmmmmmmm?

dowlingm

end of the road wrote: »

hmmmmmmmmmm?

Some very antisocial behaviour going on apparently.

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

Some very antisocial behaviour going on apparently.

ah yeah i know what you meant now, was reading about that myself on RUI about the behaviour on some waterford services.

dardhal

foggy_lad wrote: »

Waiting for the Luas at Heuston Station the other day and two of the security guards spent at least 15 minutes chatting with a very nice looking young woman who appeared to be a language student and from the same country as one of the security guards, eventually another security guy came out from Heuston station and told off the other two telling them that they were on cctv all the time and if he knew how long they were dossing off them the boss would also find out, They said a long drawn out goodbye and eventually went back inside the station where they were obviously supposed to be working.

Are a dedicated transport police going to be any different? Spend peanuts on something and you get a pile of useless vegetables, Wouldn't it be better having Gardai numbers increased and more patrols in areas which are hot-spots for crime on the transport network?

Can't agree more with respect to the first paragraph. When living in Dublin, close to O'Connell street, I was sick and tired of seeing Garda members around (though less that I would have liked) that, while lots of crime, begging, threatening and general harrassment being commited by the usual scumbags/skangers/knacker in the area, they were happily standing, chatting among them or (and this pissed me off big time) texting on their mobile phones (specially a pair of female gards I saw several times doing the same day after day).

It doesn't matter if they are public workers wearing the Garda hat, or just private sector security agents with no powers whatsoever to enforce anything. It is a problem with attitude. Any person earning a salary to SERVE the public should take their job seriously, and SERVE the public. Serving the public is fighting high profile crime, of course, but most of the time and for most of the people is small crimes and daily annoyances what bothers people the most.

Even if courts, laws and politicians make it difficult for antisocial behaviour to be punished, the Gardai have the moral obligation to fight any crime or situation that threatens the population or makes their lives less convenient. Questioning a stupid stoned guy because we was fool enough to smoke a join in the open street may be seen by a small minority of the population as a good thing to spend their time on. Telling off groups of noisy teenagers in the afternoon may be right, but only some people would consider that a big enough annoyance.

But preventing some half human from coughing on your face, or a tourist face, just because he wants to get some pocket change, is something that should be avoided. Groups/gangs of knackers wreaking havoc in public transportation, Dublin bikes spots, parked cars or private property should be stopped. Beggars, if intimidating, should be told to stop. Open drug dealing should be prosecuted.

And every time any of the above gets into trouble, they should an annotation on their personal record, and those records should be shared with Welfare, so they can reduce or simply cancel their benefits. No one living on other's money should be allowed to cause the general public annoyances, disturbances, or anything worse than that.

Harrassing small crime and cutting benefits to those that spend their time causing problems would go a long way to reduce those kind of daily worries that affect tens of thousands of people in big cities in Ireland. Maybe they'll opt to keep the benefits and stop making trouble. In phase two, we may have a look at what incentive a scumbag may have in working hard for a future if they can do very well on taxpayer's money.

bmaxi

dardhal wrote: »

Can't agree more with respect to the first paragraph. When living in Dublin, close to O'Connell street, I was sick and tired of seeing Garda members around (though less that I would have liked) that, while lots of crime, begging, threatening and general harrassment being commited by the usual scumbags/skangers/knacker in the area, they were happily standing, chatting among them or (and this pissed me off big time) texting on their mobile phones (specially a pair of female gards I saw several times doing the same day after day).

It doesn't matter if they are public workers wearing the Garda hat, or just private sector security agents with no powers whatsoever to enforce anything. It is a problem with attitude. Any person earning a salary to SERVE the public should take their job seriously, and SERVE the public. Serving the public is fighting high profile crime, of course, but most of the time and for most of the people is small crimes and daily annoyances what bothers people the most.

Even if courts, laws and politicians make it difficult for antisocial behaviour to be punished, the Gardai have the moral obligation to fight any crime or situation that threatens the population or makes their lives less convenient. Questioning a stupid stoned guy because we was fool enough to smoke a join in the open street may be seen by a small minority of the population as a good thing to spend their time on. Telling off groups of noisy teenagers in the afternoon may be right, but only some people would consider that a big enough annoyance.

But preventing some half human from coughing on your face, or a tourist face, just because he wants to get some pocket change, is something that should be avoided. Groups/gangs of knackers wreaking havoc in public transportation, Dublin bikes spots, parked cars or private property should be stopped. Beggars, if intimidating, should be told to stop. Open drug dealing should be prosecuted.

And every time any of the above gets into trouble, they should an annotation on their personal record, and those records should be shared with Welfare, so they can reduce or simply cancel their benefits. No one living on other's money should be allowed to cause the general public annoyances, disturbances, or anything worse than that.

Harrassing small crime and cutting benefits to those that spend their time causing problems would go a long way to reduce those kind of daily worries that affect tens of thousands of people in big cities in Ireland. Maybe they'll opt to keep the benefits and stop making trouble. In phase two, we may have a look at what incentive a scumbag may have in working hard for a future if they can do very well on taxpayer's money.

There is no tradition of public service in Ireland because there is no accountability. Every arm of the Civil and Public service is the same, you turn up, do your eight hours, go home and collect your pay cheque at the end of the month, there is no supervision to speak of. Put these people on a factory production line and they'd be sacked before a day was out. It never ceases to amaze me, the amount of the bill for overtime in the Gardaí, the Health Service,the Education service the Local Authorities etc. Overtime to do what? if they did what they were supposed to do in normal time I'm sure the bill could be cut by 90%, most of the overtime is accumulated by staff standing in for colleagues who are taking sick days or privilege days.
It pisses me off too to watch Gardaí holding up the columns at the GPO and the Bank of Ireland, while every petty criminal in the city has free rein in Talbot St. and Henry St.
Against my better judgment I reported an act of vandalism to Kevin St. Gardaí while I was heading home. I was informed that because I wouldn't be around to make a statement, it would be a waste of time for them to attend. WTF, what happened to policing and showing the uniform? The perpetrators were still in the area and at least might have been put off from doing any more damage.
Until such times as our politicians are themselves held to account, this type of attitude in the Public Service will carry on.

miller50841

dardhal wrote: »

Can't agree more with respect to the first paragraph. When living in Dublin, close to O'Connell street, I was sick and tired of seeing Garda members around (though less that I would have liked) that, while lots of crime, begging, threatening and general harrassment being commited by the usual scumbags/skangers/knacker in the area, they were happily standing, chatting among them or (and this pissed me off big time) texting on their mobile phones (specially a pair of female gards I saw several times doing the same day after day).

It doesn't matter if they are public workers wearing the Garda hat, or just private sector security agents with no powers whatsoever to enforce anything. It is a problem with attitude. Any person earning a salary to SERVE the public should take their job seriously, and SERVE the public. Serving the public is fighting high profile crime, of course, but most of the time and for most of the people is small crimes and daily annoyances what bothers people the most.

Even if courts, laws and politicians make it difficult for antisocial behaviour to be punished, the Gardai have the moral obligation to fight any crime or situation that threatens the population or makes their lives less convenient. Questioning a stupid stoned guy because we was fool enough to smoke a join in the open street may be seen by a small minority of the population as a good thing to spend their time on. Telling off groups of noisy teenagers in the afternoon may be right, but only some people would consider that a big enough annoyance.

But preventing some half human from coughing on your face, or a tourist face, just because he wants to get some pocket change, is something that should be avoided. Groups/gangs of knackers wreaking havoc in public transportation, Dublin bikes spots, parked cars or private property should be stopped. Beggars, if intimidating, should be told to stop. Open drug dealing should be prosecuted.

And every time any of the above gets into trouble, they should an annotation on their personal record, and those records should be shared with Welfare, so they can reduce or simply cancel their benefits. No one living on other's money should be allowed to cause the general public annoyances, disturbances, or anything worse than that.

Harrassing small crime and cutting benefits to those that spend their time causing problems would go a long way to reduce those kind of daily worries that affect tens of thousands of people in big cities in Ireland. Maybe they'll opt to keep the benefits and stop making trouble. In phase two, we may have a look at what incentive a scumbag may have in working hard for a future if they can do very well on taxpayer's money.

The private security on the luas and Ir/Dart have powers under company bye laws the only problem is many don't want to get involved including the cops as everthing is turning into a case where they leave themselves open to be sued.
If you do nothing you can't be sued.

Really pisssed off with the attitude of people in this country its turning into a bit of a jungle

MANUTD99

I'm so sleepy in the morning and always worry about tagging my Leap Card. I n even go out of my way to have it at hand. I get the 7.05 Luas from Heuston to the Point.

Every single morning the inspectors get on and check for tickets. Everybody at this time is going to work and from my experience always have tickets validieted. I seen one bloke last week who I know from the Luas who had some issue and got fined. I know from seeing him on the Luas he always had his Leap Card.He may not of topped it up

Fast forward to when I go home and the Luas is full of scumbags, I never feel safe, it is full of junkies taking drugs(ive seen this first hand) and the inspectors never punish the c&nts who don't have tickets from 3-6pm

miller50841

That is crazy but more need to bring this to the attention of the company and not a phone call a letter is what is needed. See there is another thing to all this scum most have free travel and now at this stage the inspectors may know them or like you would rather have nothing to do with them.
These a holes are unpredictable but saying that I would have no problem as I already deal with them in my job and find it harder each day to look at it from both sides if you get me. They know they can't be touched and sure have nothing to lose

CIE

miller50841 wrote: »

That is crazy but more need to bring this to the attention of the company and not a phone call a letter is what is needed. See there is another thing to all this scum most have free travel and now at this stage the inspectors may know them or like you would rather have nothing to do with them.
These a holes are unpredictable but saying that I would have no problem as I already deal with them in my job and find it harder each day to look at it from both sides if you get me. They know they can't be touched and sure have nothing to lose

They always have something to lose. If this keeps up though, watch out for vigilante gangs to start going after them.

miller50841

They have no brain cells left so think they have lost it all so just give 2 fingers to us all

JustAddWater

foggy_lad wrote: »

How will the transport police be funded?

You could start by fining those who have no tickets.... Money raised pays towards the policing

foggy_lad

miller50841 wrote: »

The private security on the luas and Ir/Dart have powers under company bye laws the only problem is many don't want to get involved including the cops as everthing is turning into a case where they leave themselves open to be sued.
If you do nothing you can't be sued.

Really pisssed off with the attitude of people in this country its turning into a bit of a jungle

It is Veolia IR and the other companies who issue instructions to security staff on how to handle situations they encounter. All the bye-laws contain lengthy parts on barring persistent troublemakers and those who are anti social but for some reason the companies refuse to tackle these nasty scumbags through the courts!

miller50841 wrote: »

That is crazy but more need to bring this to the attention of the company and not a phone call a letter is what is needed. See there is another thing to all this scum most have free travel and now at this stage the inspectors may know them or like you would rather have nothing to do with them.
These a holes are unpredictable but saying that I would have no problem as I already deal with them in my job and find it harder each day to look at it from both sides if you get me. They know they can't be touched and sure have nothing to lose

Free travel should not protect anyone engaged in illegal or anti-social behaviour but when the companies refuse to prosecute and get barring orders why would they bother even throwing these people off the trams and trains!

AlekSmart

listermint wrote: »

I do also have to agree, that having used the entire line since its inception there are users here blowing it totally out of proportion and clearly havent used these types of systems globally. You must all write for the daily mail.

......................................................................................

MANUTD99: Fast forward to when I go home and the Luas is full of scumbags, I never feel safe, it is full of junkies taking drugs(ive seen this first hand) and the inspectors never punish the c&nts who don't have tickets from 3-6pm

Aha !!...Another Daily Mail columnist uncovered...Where do I claim my reward ? :eek:

Problem..?....What problem...???

Irish and Proud

darkman2 wrote: »

I think I am in a majority that calls for the line to be dismantled. Anti social behaviour and far worse is the norm on this tram line. Dubliners are intimidated and what of tourists? It goes through the city centre - it is embarrassing and disgraceful. Of course it ferries scum (for free) from Tallaght to the Children's court (great planning that eh?) and no matter what security is on it it will not make any difference. The scumbags have the run of it. When the judge let's the feral children out after 10 convictions they simply hop on the tram and go home (not paying of course and intimidating passengers). I think the line should be closed because it is a free ride for scum in and out of our capital city and addicts looking for the clinic behind Clearys. Until the council use their heads I don't think this line should remain open. I think the line is dangerous and represents an appalling image of this city to tourists who are also at risk of harm.

Only a matter of time before someone is killed within a tram on that line. Mark my words that will happen. Anyone that cannot see the security implications with this line is a complete idiot and clearly has never used the tram.

Before I even read any more into this thread, I've this to say: It's the same nonsense of blaming cars for everything - the problem is society, not the trams. I don't want to be controversial, but I think the only solution that remains for anti social behavior is the introduction of boot camps for unruly teenagers etc - this would IMO eventually get rid of the "what will you do if I don't?" mentality. It would IMO dissolve the impunity factor among our teens and would eventually restore a sense of respect - this measure would take time to make a big impact, but I think it would work. Why should we have to forgo the LUAS because of a few unruly teenagers etc. Parents should also be tackled for not rearing their children properly. I would also gradually abolish child allowance and would instead tackle the cost of education for families as well as introducing a nationwide school meals programme to ensure the children are getting proper food at least five times a week - nutrition, I guess, is one of the problems with children these days. The abolition of child allowance would also stop the practice of having children for financial benefit which obviously causes problems.

Just had to get that off my chest - the LUAS cost a lot of money to build and is an excellent way to get around - corrective measures are what's needed, not scrapping it!

kieran4003

While living in Cork, I visit Dublin reguarly and I always use the Red line Luas. I have never once seen any trouble of any form on it or felt uncomfortable on it. I was only on it last Friday, several times and again no problem. Just Commuters, Shoppers and tourists. I did notice security boarding the tram in Jervis in the evening, but there was certainly no trouble on it. It is a fantastic service but I think stories are exagerated a bit on here sometimes. Of course there is occasional problems, but a good security and staff presence is a deterrant.

ShaneScouse

God this and that daft thread about crime rates in Tallaght, people really are just ignorant at times are they not. Im worried Ill damage my eyes If I roll them any more reading this tripe.

The red luas is used by a crazy amount of people the ratio of people that use it in all of its areas(shock horror its not just full of 99.5% of people from tallaght bar yourself and that posh lad with the Ipad over there) compared to the Bus lines they could use to commute aswell says it all. Its the most used transport system in the city, so ofc theres gona be scangers and scumbags and antisocial behaviour. The more population there is on something or in somewhere then ofc the higher the % of gits.

And Ill repeat whats been said several times already in here, I got it for years for college and work from Tallaght-Town and never a bother, at all hours. Only get it once a week now prob as I drive, but it gets you from A-B and I cant think of a family member or friend who doesnt get it at least once as week, and never a problem for them. Using joe duffy or talk shows on the whole as a basis for your assesment of something is so flawed Im embarresed for you.

Also I see people get caught and tickets given for never having tickets, kids pensioners you name it, Not sure what time or what luas people are getting to be seeing it full of junkies and chancers without tickets everytime they go home from work, all I can say is work an extra 20mins from now on, and get a diff one.

Judgement Day

That's great so, everything is perfect on the Red Luas line and we all listen to the Joe Duffy Show too much. :rolleyes:

kieran4003

Judgement Day wrote: »

That's great so, everything is perfect on the Red Luas line and we all listen to the Joe Duffy Show too much. :rolleyes:

Have it in one.

n97 mini

Three times as many "incidents" of anti social behaviour etc on Red Line as on Green Line according to Veolia

http://www.thejournal.ie/three-quarters-of-luas-public-disorder-offences-occur-on-red-line-324411-Jan2012/

ShaneScouse

n97 mini wrote: »

Three times as many "incidents" of anti social behaviour etc on Red Line as on Green Line according to Veolia

http://www.thejournal.ie/three-quarters-of-luas-public-disorder-offences-occur-on-red-line-324411-Jan2012/

Comparing a service that takes thousands less a day(and diff ratio of age groups, aka more old people :P ) that passes through some of the more upperclass areas of the city, against a far more busy service that goes a longer distance through a more varied route inc many working class areas of the city, and crying in horror as one has a few more probs and social issues then the other??

I do believe you may have the answers to human kinds social problems

pawrick

Better enforcement of rules is all that's needed.

I use the red line a a few times a week and generally I see no trouble apart from hearing loud conversations about someone wanting to break someones face for grassing on them etc. maybe I'm immune to it at this point.
Once getting on at st. james I did see a couple of skangers try to have sex at the platform which was weird but mostly because they couldn't seem to figure out how to do it with their tracksuits still on which lead to a lot of shouting and swearing.

ordinary_girl

pawrick wrote: »

Once getting on at st. james I did see a couple of skangers try to have sex at the platform which was weird but mostly because they couldn't seem to figure out how to do it with their tracksuits still on which lead to a lot of shouting and swearing.

That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard.

The red line definitely shouldn't be closed, the then 77/now 27 has become bearable since the LUAS started!

AlekSmart

ShaneScouse wrote: »

The Red Luas is used by a crazy amount of people the ratio of people that use it in all of its areas(shock horror its not just full of 99.5% of people from tallaght bar yourself and that posh lad with the Ipad over there) compared to the Bus lines they could use to commute as well says it all. Its the most used transport system in the city, so ofc theres gona be scangers and scumbags and antisocial behaviour. The more population there is on something or in somewhere then ofc the higher the % of gits.....

.... Using Joe Duffy or talk shows on the whole as a basis for your assesment of something is so flawed Im embarresed for you.

I would suggest that the "Crazy Amount" of people using the Red Line is nowhere near as Crazy as it could or should be.

One of (not the entire) reasons for the significant drop in usership within the Tallaght area is the documented incidences of ASB in and around it.

There are a LOT of spare seats on Luas Red Line services serving Tallaght,which I see as being marketable to NEW Public Transport users,particularly as Motor Fuel heads for €2.00 per litre.

I would disagree with Shane Scouse about this being a media-driven exercise,as many posters here merely recount their own unsavoury experiences on the Line itself and more particularly the City West extension.

I am glad to hear that at least one person is satisfied with the situation but I believe the entire system requires some significant attention if it is to prosper as it should.

n97 mini

ShaneScouse wrote: »

Comparing a service that takes thousands less a day(and diff ratio of age groups, aka more old people :P )

Red Line doesn't take 3 time more passengers, it carries 28% more. Age groups, socio economic backgrounds etc are irrelevant to the statistics. For any given numbers of passengers, there will be more trouble makers per head on the Red Line than on the Green.

As I've said it before, proper transport police which are an arm of the Gardaí, is the only solution.

KD345

ShaneScouse wrote: »

Comparing a service that takes thousands less a day(and diff ratio of age groups, aka more old people :P ) that passes through some of the more upperclass areas of the city, against a far more busy service that goes a longer distance through a more varied route inc many working class areas of the city, and crying in horror as one has a few more probs and social issues then the other??

I do believe you may have the answers to human kinds social problems

Where are you getting those statistics from, such as the age profile of the Luas passengers you quote?

I have always found the age profile of a green line passenger to be younger than that of the red line. That's just from my observations, but would be very interested to see your statistics.

The red luas is used by a crazy amount of people the ratio of people that use it in all of its areas(shock horror its not just full of 99.5% of people from tallaght bar yourself and that posh lad with the Ipad over there) compared to the Bus lines they could use to commute aswell says it all. Its the most used transport system in the city, so ofc theres gona be scangers and scumbags and antisocial behaviour. The more population there is on something or in somewhere then ofc the higher the % of gits.

It's not. The bus is used most in Dublin.

Using joe duffy or talk shows on the whole as a basis for your assesment of something is so flawed Im embarresed for you.

There have been many reports and news stories written about this problem over the last few years with Veolia releasing figures to support the claims, so there's really nothing too flawed about it at all. I think the most recent figures show there are about three reported incidents a day on the service, with the vast majority of these occurring on the red line.

http://www.thejournal.ie/three-quarters-of-luas-public-disorder-offences-occur-on-red-line-324411-Jan2012/

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0114/luas.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/increase-in-antisocial-behaviour-and-racism-on-the-luas-2982866.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/td-calls-for-more-security-on-the-luas-red-line-393112-Mar2012/

ShaneScouse

n97 mini wrote: »

Red Line doesn't take 3 time more passengers, it carries 28% more.

I didn't say it did take 3 times more, I said thousands more, which is true something like 10k a day more then green iirc?

KD345 wrote: »

It's not. The bus is used most in Dublin.

Well ye that is true, I meant more a constant route of travel V train routes dart routes etc. Bus Is just such a wide scope hard to compare it to anything, but you aint wrong
Now you mention buses Im just waiting for some smart fellow to create a thread about how theres more problems on the buses used in some west and northside suburbs that take 20k a day compared to one in dalkey that takes 475 daily and goes past less schools.