Red Luas line should be closed

darkman2

I think I am in a majority that calls for the line to be dismantled. Anti social behaviour and far worse is the norm on this tram line. Dubliners are intimidated and what of tourists? It goes through the city centre - it is embarrassing and disgraceful. Of course it ferries scum (for free) from Tallaght to the Children's court (great planning that eh?) and no matter what security is on it it will not make any difference. The scumbags have the run of it. When the judge let's the feral children out after 10 convictions they simply hop on the tram and go home (not paying of course and intimidating passengers). I think the line should be closed because it is a free ride for scum in and out of our capital city and addicts looking for the clinic behind Clearys. Until the council use their heads I don't think this line should remain open. I think the line is dangerous and represents an appalling image of this city to tourists who are also at risk of harm.

Only a matter of time before someone is killed within a tram on that line. Mark my words that will happen. Anyone that cannot see the security implications with this line is a complete idiot and clearly has never used the tram.

Cookie_Monster

How about treating the cause rather than the usual "punish everyone for one group being scum" approach?

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

How about treating the cause rather than the usual "punish everyone for one group being scum" approach?

Whilst I appreciate this sentiment and it's obvious good intent,I am also mindful that,as Darkman2 refers to,REd Line has become PART of this "Treatment of the cause" rather than fulfilling what should be it's primary role,that of mass safely available public transit.

Living,as I do,on the Red Line,I have supported it since it's inception and continue to do so,BUT I am now very selective in my useage.

In addition,both having been subject to and witnessing what nopw passes for everyday behavious on the service,I rarely,if ever,feel "Safe" on the service.

That admission,coming from what I would consider a "Savvy" Public Transport user,is to my mind a serious issue for Luas management.

It's equally noteworthy that,for example,The Childrens Court,has contrubuted significantly to the demise of the entire "Smithfield Village" concept,which at one time had the promise of bringing some positive new-life to a distressed area of the City.

The Distillery Tower,The Irish Music Museum,The Hotel itself...all gone but the Chizzlers Court and all it encompasses remains to define the area in so many peoples minds,as well as providing many people with a somewhat chilling daily example of the somewhat cold and threatening nature of so many of modern Irelands "Children".

Close down the Red Line....Most certainly not !!!
Sort out the Red Line.........Definitely...but it will not now be easily sorted !

monument

darkman2 wrote: »

I think I am in a majority that calls for the line to be dismantled.

Given the size of its ridership and that most people outside of its ridership don't care, how do you think a majority even care?

I'm not suggesting for a second that there's not major problems with the red line, but viewing things via Joe Duffy tinted widows isn't going to help users and would-be users of the line.

Victor

darkman2 wrote: »

I think I am in a majority that calls for the line to be dismantled.

Less trolling please.

---

If people don't want to use Luas, they don't have to.

Judgement Day

It must be a silent majority calling for the closure of the Red Line as I've never heard it said by anybody. It needs sorting out and now. It should be used as a training ground for the gardai - if they can sort out the Red line they will be able for anything. Won't happen though.

Time to email/write to Leo Varadkar.

Ministerial Office:
44 Kildare Street, Dublin 2
Tel: 01-6041062

Constituency Office Address:
37A Main Street, Ongar, Dublin 15.
Tel: 01-6403133
Fax: 01-6403155

E-mail: minister@dttas.ie

The problem falls into his lap from a transport point of view as well as a tourism one. I'll be writing anyway.

Dravokivich

And then what? They'll get on buses and cause problems there.

Del2005

Dravokivich wrote: »

And then what? They'll get on buses and cause problems there.

Nah they gave up on buses, too hard to hit. Way easier to damage something which can only move 2 directions and takes ~5 min to be allowed reverse.

CageWager

whoever decided not to connect the red and green lines was a visionary

Dravokivich

Del2005 wrote: »

Nah they gave up on buses, too hard to hit. Way easier to damage something which can only move 2 directions and takes ~5 min to be allowed reverse.

Easier to hop onto the Luas for the now, but take out the Luas and they will just get onto the buses. Shame, because I was starting to get used to buses that had all their seats still attached upstairs.

CageWager wrote: »

whoever decided not to connect the red and green lines was a visionary

Don't think anyone thought those words would be put together in such a manner here.

bridgepeople

darkman2 what specific issues have you had on the Red Line? You must have had a couple of very bad experiences to think the service should be cancelled!

I use the Red Line to commute to and from work and very rarely have any problems. Certainly not enough to make me consider not using the service. I actually find it quite pleasant - much more so than buses which I find stuffy, cramped and give me motion sickness.

Which parts of the line do you use? I don't go out past Tallaght so maybe it's worse out there.

AngryLips

Here here! Let's also close Dublin Airport while we're at it ...the number of scumbags using it since Ryanair came along has made the place insufferable.

Stark

Dravokivich wrote: »

Easier to hop onto the Luas for the now, but take out the Luas and they will just get onto the buses. Shame, because I was starting to get used to buses that had all their seats still attached upstairs.

At least they'd have to pay for the bus.

wicklowwonder

The ticket guys need to clamp down a little harder but I suppose what can they do, last week at 7am a well dressed office guy refused point blank from Jervis to Abbey to give the guy his details and then just hopped off, nothing the ticket agent could do. If they can't stop someone like that what hope have they against the scumbags?

I use the service to commute from Smithfield to the IFSC and I have encountered anything I wouldn't see/hear in the Jervis Centre. Do you want to close that as well? The Red Luas line is probably one of the most important pieces of public transport. In my opinion more important than the posher Green one as it caters for thousands of people parking at the Red Cow and coming in for gigs, GAA/Soccer matches and everything else that happens every weekend in the city. Public transport and scumbags go hand in hand everywhere in the world.

Julius Seizure

CageWager wrote: »

whoever decided not to connect the red and green lines was a visionary

People keep on going on about this, there was a good reason. As part of phase 2 there were plans for it to go underground around Harcourt and run upwards through the city, similar to Metro North to have one continous line North-South. Eventually they dropped that plan though and metro north was going to be separate, with a change needed to continue in the same direction /rant

Either way, I like it, gives me a bit of excercise each day As some polititian said, "it's a nice brisk walk"

frag420

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The ticket guys need to clamp down a little harder but I suppose what can they do, last week at 7am a well dressed office guy refused point blank from Jervis to Abbey to give the guy his details and then just hopped off, nothing the ticket agent could do. If they can't stop someone like that what hope have they against the scumbags?

The problem here is that they never approach the scumbags. About 18 months ago I was on the red line. I wore a different jacket and had left my weekly ticket in my other jacket. When approached for ticket I realised i didnt have it. He took out his book to issue fine. I explained what happened and offered to buy a ticket at next stop but he was having none of it. I then refused to give him my details as he had bypased tWo tracksuit wearing gutter dwellers who had no ticket. I know this as they were begging at heuston station when I got on. If he wont attempt to fine them then he aint getting my details. He asked what stop I was getting of at. When I told him he radiod his colleagues to have the guards waiting for me. I decided to get of a couple of stops previous and he tried to stop me. He will call the cops over a forgotten ticket but not for the antisocial behaviour of scum. You can see where their priorities lie..........

My point is that the red line will be overrun with scum so long as they are not tackled for being drunk, dealing, abusing users, having no ticket etc.

touts

The problem is not the Red Line. It is that society has allowed it to be dictated to by the PC brigade like the self appointed Irish Council for Criminal Liberties (yes I know they call themselves the Irish Council for Civil Liberties but they care nothing for Civil society and instead just busy themselves with keeping the worst scum at liberty). It is almost impossible to get sent to jail these days unless you are an ordinary decent hard working person who forgets a fine or something like that. If you are a scumbag you can easily rack up 150 to 200 convictions before you see the inside of a jail cell. For many of these guys the whole justice system is a joke. They laugh and skit their way through a court appearance (if they even bother to turn up) then shoot up in the toilets before beating the heads off each other on the steps and then running off when a garda decides to move them away from the court as there are some reporters coming.

invinciblePRSTV

The answer is - and always has been - is the establishment of a dedicated transport police as seen everywhere else.

mikemac1

Closing it solves nothing

It's just a few years ago the 77 was the worst bus in the city. Some guy was thrown out the emergency exit of the top deck

Close the red line and that bus will reclaim its title back from the 40 (old 78A)




I would agree with the other poster that the Red line is more important then the Green. A huge amount of people from around Ireland go to the Red Cow and use it for matches, concerts and hospital visits.

Lapin

Judgement Day wrote: »

It should be used as a training ground for the gardai - if they can sort out the Red line they will be able for anything.....

I think thats actually a cracking idea.

It would make an ideal training ground for the dog unit and armed response unit.

foggy_lad

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

The answer is - and always has been - is the establishment of a dedicated transport police as seen everywhere else.

The country can't afford and is reducing numbers of normal Gardai yet is somehow supposed to find the millions needed for extra specialist force with their own vehicles and all a transport police force entails?

How will the transport police be funded?

Mr Simpson

A transport police could be, at least in part, funded by Veolia and Irish Rail, as a replacement for the STT guys, who lets face it are completely powerless.

Kumsheen

wicklowwonder wrote: »

The ticket guys need to clamp down a little harder but I suppose what can they do, last week at 7am a well dressed office guy refused point blank from Jervis to Abbey to give the guy his details and then just hopped off, nothing the ticket agent could do. If they can't stop someone like that what hope have they against the scumbags?
.

Chances are that all have free travel passes anyway so ticket enforcement has nothing to do with it.

invinciblePRSTV

foggy_lad wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

The answer is - and always has been - is the establishment of a dedicated transport police as seen everywhere else.

The country can't afford and is reducing numbers of normal Gardai yet is somehow supposed to find the millions needed for extra specialist force with their own vehicles and all a transport police force entails?

How will the transport police be funded?

"The country is broke" can't be an excuse to not do anything about anything ever again.

But since we're here, maybe a TP could be funded by abolishing the free travel scheme and using that public money to fund a transport police infrastructure?

GreeBo

foggy_lad wrote: »

The country can't afford and is reducing numbers of normal Gardai yet is somehow supposed to find the millions needed for extra specialist force with their own vehicles and all a transport police force entails?

How will the transport police be funded?

Couldnt they just use the luas for transport?

foggy_lad

Kumsheen wrote: »

Chances are that all have free travel passes anyway so ticket enforcement has nothing to do with it.

Zero tolerance will keep most of them off public transport as well as the companies going to court and having named repeat offenders barred from their services! The law is there to do all this but for some reason the companies don't want to bother enforcing the rules and conditions of carriage.

foggy_lad

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

"The country is broke" can't be an excuse to not do anything about anything ever again.

But since we're here, maybe a TP could be funded by abolishing the free travel scheme and using that public money to fund a transport police infrastructure?

That public money is already ensuring the survival of Irish Rail and Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus. Remove the Free travel and you would also have to remove Subvention and none of the CIE companies would survive losing so many customers overnight! lose all the free pass people and they would have to get rid of half their staff as well as about half their vehicles and services would have to be seriously curtailed.

foggy_lad

GreeBo wrote: »

Couldnt they just use the luas for transport?

oh so it is just a Luas police that is proposed?

darkman2

Victor wrote: »

Less trolling please.

---

If people don't want to use Luas, they don't have to.

Sorry but why is pointing out the problem trolling? Everyone knows the problems with the red line.

Solair

On that basis you would have to close the entire Paris Metro, much of the Brussels metro, several tube lines in London, the tramway systems in most of France and at least 70% of public transport systems everywhere else in Western Europe.

I can assure you, having traveled quite a bit on these systems, the Luas red line's issues are far from unique nor are they likely to shock tourists other than those who've never been to an urban area before or who have lived life thus far in a cocoon of some sort.

I'm not sure which majority you are talking about OP. Have you gone out and carried out surveys or are you assuming that everyone agrees with you based on absolutely nothing?

Irish urban (and some interurban) transport needs more policing. It's as simple as that really.

As suggested, we need some kind of public transport police service, not necessarily full Gardaí, but trained specifically to police trains, busses etc a bit like the way we have Airport police at Dublin, Cork and Shannon.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

How will the transport police be funded?

In the UK, the British Transport Police are funded by the transport companies, London Underground, British Rail, etc.

It would be better for Irish Rail, RPA/LUAS, DB, etc. to fund a dedicated transport police with all the same powers of a Garda, then to fund both useless ticket inspectors and security guys.

These individuals could then do both ticket inspections and arrest both fare dodgers and other troublesome people when needed.

There is already precedent for this in Ireland, the Airport Police Service have many of the powers of a Garda including stop and search and arrest and are funded by the Dublin Airport Authority.

Taking it a step further you could do what they do in some states in the US. Ticket checks are carried out by police. Don't have a ticket, then you get handcuffed and held on the platform of the station until a police van comes to pick you up, bring you to the police station and process you.

It doesn't usually to prison, rather you just pay the fine at the police station. But the idea is to inconvenience and embarrass the fare dodger/trouble maker as much as possible. Often you are left standing there handcuffed for more then an hour until the police van arrives, as people walk past you. The police van then often takes it time getting to the station and they take their time in processing.

This has turned out to be a very effective method as while the scumbags might not be embarrassed by this, they actually don't want to waste their time with this either. Often these scumbags have places to be and "business" to do. Waste their entire day and have them lose "business" and they soon get the idea that they don't have the run of public transport and it is better to keep quite so they can go about their "business".

A lot of policing is about psychology, something we unfortunately seem to have not learned yet here in Ireland.

LeinsterDub

Prehaps they should close a few key stops? It happens from time to time in Ballymun and Finglas on the buses where they won't go in the area and it only ever seems to take 1 or 2 days before the behaviour is corrected

coylemj

Was on the Luas red line one afternoon, went from Abbey St. towards Heuston Station. Buying a ticket from the machine in Abbey St., I was the subject of unsolicited 'assistance' from a drug addict who insisted on showing me how the machine worked. I know he was a drug addict before anyone asks because he volunteered that information while pressing the buttons on the machine for me. I didn't feel threatened or anything but paid him off with 50c or a euro to get rid of him.

There was three security guys clad all in black on the Luas when it arrived and we set off for Jervis St. At the next stop, tourists were being subjected to the same hassle from beggars & drug addicts while trying to operate the ticket machine, not one of the three security guys standing on the Luas bothered to get off and get rid of them or at least tell them to stop harassing the tourists. These were tourists who should have boarded the Luas I was on but they couldn't because they were trying to buy tickets from a confusing machine and all the while with Dublin scumbags trying to tell them how to operate the machine.

And if the Luas operator presumably thinks the ticket machines are easy to use, why is there almost permanently an official standing at the one outside Heuston Station to show people how to buy a ticket? It's the fact that people not familiar with the machines take so long to figure them out that makes them fertile territory for beggars and drug addicts to hang around them.

mikemac1

coylemj wrote: »

paid him off with 50c or a euro to get rid of him.

Sorry but you are sort of contributing to the problem

coylemj

mikemac1 wrote: »

Sorry but you are sort of contributing to the problem

Yes, I agree but the guy who approached me had obviously refined his technique into a non-threatening style and he did actually help me out. I was staring blankly at the machine and with a couple of finger hits on the menus he had me on the right screen for my ticket.

If the machines were easy to use these people wouldn't have the opportunity they do.

I am pie

coylemj wrote: »

Yes, I agree but the guy who approached me had obviously refined his technique into a non-threatening style and he did actually help me out. I was staring blankly at the machine and with a couple of finger hits on the menus he had me on the right screen for my ticket.

If the machines were easy to use these people wouldn't have the opportunity they do.

Is there not a big map in the middle of the screen where you tap your destination and pay the amount stated. I dunno how it could get much easier !

coylemj

I am pie wrote: »

Is there not a big map in the middle of the screen where you tap your destination and pay the amount stated. I dunno how it could get much easier !

Let me repeat what I said earlier: If the machines are so easy to use, how come there is usually an official Luas representative at the machine outside Heuston Station to show the culchees and tourists how to buy a ticket?

2cool4school

gotta agree with darkman on this one

the red line is seriously scummy at this stage and it should be shut until a way can be found to keep the scum off it

those paying for the service should not have to feel intimidated while availing of it

i hate using that luas and always see trouble on it

and the junkies scabbing at the ticket machines is a disgrace and could be easily stamped out if the operators gave a crap

every now and again they crack down for one day and then the next day its business as usual for the zombies

the luas red line is a lawless mess and it pains me to pay money to ride on it

youre basically paying money to risk your life

shut it down - scumproof it - open it up again

coylemj

If we all used blank lines in place of punctuation there would only be room for about 3 or 4 posts per page.

comma , full stop . More of, please.

foggy_lad

Waiting for the Luas at Heuston Station the other day and two of the security guards spent at least 15 minutes chatting with a very nice looking young woman who appeared to be a language student and from the same country as one of the security guards, eventually another security guy came out from Heuston station and told off the other two telling them that they were on cctv all the time and if he knew how long they were dossing off them the boss would also find out, They said a long drawn out goodbye and eventually went back inside the station where they were obviously supposed to be working.

Are a dedicated transport police going to be any different? Spend peanuts on something and you get a pile of useless vegetables, Wouldn't it be better having Gardai numbers increased and more patrols in areas which are hot-spots for crime on the transport network?

markpb

2cool4school wrote: »

shut it down - scumproof it - open it up again

What about the tens of thousands of people who use it every day? Surely if it's so bad, they'd have switched to bus or private transport already? Should they be forced to make that switch if they're not unhappy?

In any case, would DB with its reduced fleet of buses be able to handle the demand of all those people who are discommoded?

foggy_lad

coylemj wrote: »

And if the Luas operator presumably thinks the ticket machines are easy to use, why is there almost permanently an official standing at the one outside Heuston Station to show people how to buy a ticket? It's the fact that people not familiar with the machines take so long to figure them out that makes them fertile territory for beggars and drug addicts to hang around them.

coylemj wrote: »

Let me repeat what I said earlier: If the machines are so easy to use, how come there is usually an official Luas representative at the machine outside Heuston Station to show the culchees and tourists how to buy a ticket?

That official is there to deter the drug users and homeless from approaching passengers, they will of course help people buy tickets as it is part of their job as customer service personnell.

Dravokivich

coylemj wrote: »

Let me repeat what I said earlier: If the machines are so easy to use, how come there is usually an official Luas representative at the machine outside Heuston Station to show the culchees and tourists how to buy a ticket?

Could it be people coming into the Heuston may not be familiar with the layout of the city?

I wouldn't know my way around other cities through out the country as I haven't been to them enough to familiarise myself with them. When I go abroad I regularly seek the assistance of someone there because they'd have layouts I'd be unfamilliar with and it's just quicker to ask.

coylemj

foggy_lad wrote: »

That official is there to deter the drug users and homeless from approaching passengers, they will of course help people buy tickets as it is part of their job as customer service personnell.

They could do with the same at the stops in Abbey St.

Del2005

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are a dedicated transport police going to be any different? Spend peanuts on something and you get a pile of useless vegetables, Wouldn't it be better having Gardai numbers increased and more patrols in areas which are hot-spots for crime on the transport network?

The problem for the STT folks is that they have no power and the scumbags know this. All they can do is ask the people to leave the Tram/stop and if they don't they can't force them off, if they do the Gardaí tell the scumbag to be on their merry way while they try to arrest the STT person. The bigger problem is it's against the law to ask a child to leave a PSV so they'd need Gardaí/social workers to remove the problem people.

They should use the Garda Reserve as a Transport police.

An Udaras

As I have stated in previous threads a legislated transport police in the same vein as the Airport Police Service would make a huge difference to the overall safety & security of those using public transport.

Proactive policing helps to deter crime and acts of public disorder from occurring. The gardai currently are over stretched,under funded and under manned to fight general crime nationwide never mind on our trains,trams & buses.

A strong hi-visibility presence helps to reassure the travelling the public and lower the fear of crime. A dedicated transport police service would not prevent all crime but would be a massive improvement on the current situation of uniformed security guards who have no statutory powers.

No offence to Foggylad but simply don't pay them peanuts and hire qualified and suitable staff to be members of any future transport police.

Sadly if the rail companies and others transport providers are not interested in funding this it will not happen. The Dublin Airport Authority fund & maintain their own police force whom they set out their role & objective which include the Prevention & Detection of crime and maintenance of public order within the lands that comprise a state airport.

Person coming to Dublin or Cork Airport for example do not do so worrying about the risk of anti social behaviour or being exposed to beggars,vagrants,drug users etc.. they feel safe as they know that there is a dedicated group of men & woman who are empowered and suitably qualified to deal with such incidents.

Hopefully one day this will extend to the LUAS.

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

If we all used blank lines in place of punctuation there would only be room for about 3 or 4 posts per page.

comma , full stop . More of, please.

Behave

An Udaras

Del2005 wrote: »

The problem for the STT folks is that they have no power and the scumbags know this. All they can do is ask the people to leave the Tram/stop and if they don't they can't force them off, if they do the Gardaí tell the scumbag to be on their merry way while they try to arrest the STT person. The bigger problem is it's against the law to ask a child to leave a PSV so they'd need Gardaí/social workers to remove the problem people.

They should use the Garda Reserve as a Transport police.

Not to be pedantic, but the Garda reserve are unpaid volunteers who I believe must be accompanied in execution of their duties when out in Public by full time members of the Gardai.

I would sooner see either a dedicated Garda unit (unlikely due to the cuts to specialized units like Traffic Corp) or a new specialized police force empowered under legislation and paid for by Transport providers thus leaving as many gardai to police the rest of our communities.

Qualitymark

Kumsheen wrote: »

Chances are that all have free travel passes anyway so ticket enforcement has nothing to do with it.

Those pensioners are *demons*.

bmaxi

An Udaras wrote: »

Not to be pedantic, but the Garda reserve are unpaid volunteers who I believe must be accompanied in execution of their duties when out in Public by full time members of the Gardai.

I would sooner see either a dedicated Garda unit (unlikely due to the cuts to specialized units like Traffic Corp) or a new specialized police force empowered under legislation and paid for by Transport providers thus leaving as many gardai to police the rest of our communities.

I can't see how a dedicated Garda unit would make any difference. The Garda force we have has proven to be totally inept at enforcing the law in other areas, what make you think they'd be any better at this?

Dravokivich

bmaxi wrote: »

I can't see how a dedicated Garda unit would make any difference. The Garda force we have has proven to be totally inept at enforcing the law in other areas, what make you think they'd be any better at this?

Where, or is this from just general negative banter?