Red Luas line should be closed

Rock of Gibraltar

I'd like to see proper stations (also fewer stops to speed it up) on the Luas and eliminate the whole open plan honour system.
There should be ticket barriers so that you need a validated ticket to access the platform and Violia or whatever operator should have the power to refuse certain free travel pass holders on the grounds of anti social behaviour, a two strike system or something.
But then you'd need a proper database of free travel pass holders, issued with card id's which also serve as rfid tickets.
Transport Police is a great idea, maybe they should merge the traffic corps and Airport Police and add responsibility for Luas and Bus if they get funding from those operators.

bridgepeople

I find this thread a bit strange. A few people, myself included, have stated that we use the service regularly and that it's really not that bad apart from the odd junkie or kids playing music etc. A lot of people have offered what I think are fairly hysterical opinions of how bad the red line is and how it speaks of wider ills of modern society etc. I haven't seen anyone in this grouping say they use the luas regularly and most seem to be relying on the odd one off bad experience or sometimes no evidence at all.

I also can't understand why people are calling for the Gardai and even army (!) to be brought in. The Luas is manned pretty effectively by a team of 6'4'' eastern european lads in stab proof vests who are built like bricks. These guys have a very obvious presence on the line and are not to be messed with. I've seen them bundle junkies/drunks off the trams pretty aggressively. Sometimes I think they could actually get in trouble for the way they act. They are anything but PC as they will always go after a group of teens in hoodies and leave a guy in a suit and tie alone.

So I'll repeat my question to the opening poster. Do you use the red line regularly and what specific negative experiences have you had?

The red line is not perfect, but I really don't think it's anything as bad as is being made out.

Mr Simpson

Judgement Day wrote: »

We've a sizeable army which as I have suggested elsewhere should be severely pruned and their members transferred into a new, beefed up garda force - it won't either as it involves attacking another sacred cow. :rolleyes:

A bit like the Gendarmerie? Anyway I reckon thats an idea for a different thread

KD345

bridgepeople wrote: »

I find this thread a bit strange. A few people, myself included, have stated that we use the service regularly and that it's really not that bad apart from the odd junkie or kids playing music etc. A lot of people have offered what I think are fairly hysterical opinions of how bad the red line is and how it speaks of wider ills of modern society etc. I haven't seen anyone in this grouping say they use the luas regularly and most seem to be relying on the odd one off bad experience or sometimes no evidence at all.

I also can't understand why people are calling for the Gardai and even army (!) to be brought in. The Luas is manned pretty effectively by a team of 6'4'' eastern european lads in stab proof vests who are built like bricks. These guys have a very obvious presence on the line and are not to be messed with. I've seen them bundle junkies/drunks off the trams pretty aggressively. Sometimes I think they could actually get in trouble for the way they act. They are anything but PC as they will always go after a group of teens in hoodies and leave a guy in a suit and tie alone.

So I'll repeat my question to the opening poster. Do you use the red line regularly and what specific negative experiences have you had?

The red line is not perfect, but I really don't think it's anything as bad as is being made out.

I use the Red Line daily. There are many problems and they do need to be sorted. If the Luas was a pub or nightclub, it would have been shut down long ago. However, it's an essential service to many people, and to even consider shutting it down should not be entertained.

bridgepeople, you asked about specific experiences - I've witnessed racial abuse, both physical and verbal, assaults, drug dealing, drug use, fare evasion, gangs of teenagers running wild through carriages harassing passengers, junkies, drunks and beggars etc. I suppose it depends on what you see as acceptable. While I can put up with two junkies sitting beside me, I know someone like my mother would be terrified. On a bus, she can sit downstairs, but when the Luas doors open, you don't know what is going to spill onto the tram.

A report released in January of this year showed there were 3 anti-social behavior incidents every day on the Luas in 2011. That doesn't account for incidents which go unreported.

dublinbusdude

I used the Luas Red Line a lot in 2004 to 2008, now I use the Luas Red Line a few times a week or every few months - so the Luas Red Line shouldnt be CLOSED!!! its a great link between Heuston Station to The Four Courts/Jervis St (Herny Street/Mary Street) Shopping Area, Abbey Street for O'Connell Street Shopping Area (walk link for the Luas Green Line)/Busarás/Connolly Station/IFSC/the o2 Point

Aard

Recently on the red line, the guy sitting in front of me was tucking some baggies into his runners, then promptly started picking a scab off his leg. Just to add to the list of anecdotes...

AlekSmart

KD345 wrote: »

I use the Red Line daily. There are many problems and they do need to be sorted. If the Luas was a pub or nightclub, it would have been shut down long ago. However, it's an essential service to many people, and to even consider shutting it down should not be entertained.

bridgepeople, you asked about specific experiences - I've witnessed racial abuse, both physical and verbal, assaults, drug dealing, drug use, fare evasion, gangs of teenagers running wild through carriages harassing passengers, junkies, drunks and beggars etc. I suppose it depends on what you see as acceptable. While I can put up with two junkies sitting beside me, I know someone like my mother would be terrified. On a bus, she can sit downstairs, but when the Luas doors open, you don't know what is going to spill onto the tram.

A report released in January of this year showed there were 3 anti-social behavior incidents every day on the Luas in 2011. That doesn't account for incidents which go unreported.

Like yourself KD345,I would use the Red Line several times each week,spanning first to last tram.

Whilst I would totally disagree with any of this "Close The Red Line" stuff,I would equally suggest that the Line itself is suffering from the continued tolerance of the activities of a significant number of,what are essentially thugs.

As you point out,no two people will share a common perception on anything,so obviously Bridgepeople is amongst those who are generally more self-confident or laidback when using Luas.

However,the proof of the pudding tends to be in the eating,with the recent Red Line service alterations,reflecting the stagnant off-peak situation on the Saggart extension.

I'm suggesting that given the investment in Luas extensions the entire focus must be directed into attracting more "New" (Farepaying) business,and it is this very grouping which the colourfuls are proving very successful at deterring.

Full Trams at peak-times with tumbleweed at all other times is exactly the situation Luas HAS to avoid....:(

As with most situations in Ireland,the most difficult aspect of the Luas Red-Line's problems is in finding anybody who will admit to there being a problem at all..

It could well turn out that we are all shrinking violets incapable of sharing a bit of youthful craic....;)

KD345

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm suggesting that given the investment in Luas extensions the entire focus must be directed into attracting more "New" (Farepaying) business,and it is this very grouping which the colourfuls are proving very successful at deterring.

Excellent point Alek, and one which Veolia really needs to address. Any business must understand the importance of making your product/service attractive to customers. The reputation of the Red Line really has been destroyed, and the RPA along with the Gardai and Veolia should be doing all they can to sort out the mess.

Delancey

I have stoppped using the Red Line simply because I no longer feel safe on it . People smoking , drinking and racially abusing other users is the norm . The Rail Security guys are useless - they just look into the carriages and the scum behave when they are around then go back to being scum once the coast is clear.

It is an embarassment that gets worse - I have little doubt that the offenders never have tickets bought. To sort it out would need security on every tram - no chance of that happening alas.

Is there a methadone clinic in St. James Hospital ? I ask because an awful lot of junkies get on there.

mikemac1

Delancey wrote: »

Is there a methadone clinic in St. James Hospital ? I ask because an awful lot of junkies get on there.

Area is full of them

One on Castle St, another in Kilmainham, one in Inchicore, one on Cork St, a well known one down the road on Merchants Quay and finally one more in Rialto

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/Publications/services/LHOGuides/Dublin_South_City_HSE_Guide.pdf

Judgement Day

How long has the Saggart extension been open now and I still haven't been on the line. As a tram enthusiast I have to tick it off but I'm really not looking forward to the trip.

Del2005

bridgepeople wrote: »

I find this thread a bit strange. A few people, myself included, have stated that we use the service regularly and that it's really not that bad apart from the odd junkie or kids playing music etc. A lot of people have offered what I think are fairly hysterical opinions of how bad the red line is and how it speaks of wider ills of modern society etc. I haven't seen anyone in this grouping say they use the luas regularly and most seem to be relying on the odd one off bad experience or sometimes no evidence at all.

I also can't understand why people are calling for the Gardai and even army (!) to be brought in. The Luas is manned pretty effectively by a team of 6'4'' eastern european lads in stab proof vests who are built like bricks. These guys have a very obvious presence on the line and are not to be messed with. I've seen them bundle junkies/drunks off the trams pretty aggressively. Sometimes I think they could actually get in trouble for the way they act. They are anything but PC as they will always go after a group of teens in hoodies and leave a guy in a suit and tie alone.

So I'll repeat my question to the opening poster. Do you use the red line regularly and what specific negative experiences have you had?

The red line is not perfect, but I really don't think it's anything as bad as is being made out.

I know a driver.

You have been lucky

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

Remove the Free travel and you would also have to remove Subvention

Why?
Subvention covers all customers not just the free loaders.

starviewadams

Saggart extension opened at the start of July 2011 IIRC.

j.mcdrmd

darkman2 wrote: »

I think I am in a majority that calls for the line to be dismantled. Anti social behaviour and far worse is the norm on this tram line. Dubliners are intimidated and what of tourists? It goes through the city centre - it is embarrassing and disgraceful. Of course it ferries scum (for free) from Tallaght to the Children's court (great planning that eh?) and no matter what security is on it it will not make any difference. The scumbags have the run of it. When the judge let's the feral children out after 10 convictions they simply hop on the tram and go home (not paying of course and intimidating passengers). I think the line should be closed because it is a free ride for scum in and out of our capital city and addicts looking for the clinic behind Clearys. Until the council use their heads I don't think this line should remain open. I think the line is dangerous and represents an appalling image of this city to tourists who are also at risk of harm.

Only a matter of time before someone is killed within a tram on that line. Mark my words that will happen. Anyone that cannot see the security implications with this line is a complete idiot and clearly has never used the tram.

It is worse than than you think, unfortunately, the scumbags rob the doctors on their way to work in Jamese's.

dowlingm

I've made this suggestion before: gardai and military in uniform to get free travel on the LUAS. Not as enforcement but simply raising the tone. Do we really think Line D isn't going to be a sh!tshow with Broombridge at one end if something isn't done?

Edit: from what I read on RUI if line A closes then Kildare-Waterford rail service will go soon after.

Cookie_Monster

And I've made this suggestion before also: Traffic Corps re-branded to transport police and cover all aspects rather than just ticketing speeding motorists from the comfort of their cars. No extra resources required and while they may be spread a bit thin it should be easy enough to allocate a few to the Luas lines each day.

CIE

bridgepeople wrote: »

I find this thread a bit strange. A few people, myself included, have stated that we use the service regularly and that it's really not that bad apart from the odd junkie or kids playing music etc. A lot of people have offered what I think are fairly hysterical opinions of how bad the red line is and how it speaks of wider ills of modern society etc. I haven't seen anyone in this grouping say they use the luas regularly and most seem to be relying on the odd one off bad experience or sometimes no evidence at all.

I also can't understand why people are calling for the Gardai and even army (!) to be brought in. The Luas is manned pretty effectively by a team of 6'4'' eastern european lads in stab proof vests who are built like bricks. These guys have a very obvious presence on the line and are not to be messed with. I've seen them bundle junkies/drunks off the trams pretty aggressively. Sometimes I think they could actually get in trouble for the way they act. They are anything but PC as they will always go after a group of teens in hoodies and leave a guy in a suit and tie alone.

So I'll repeat my question to the opening poster. Do you use the red line regularly and what specific negative experiences have you had?

The red line is not perfect, but I really don't think it's anything as bad as is being made out

I'd trade the police presence for a conversion to DART.

AlekSmart

Judgement Day wrote: »

How long has the Saggart extension been open now and I still haven't been on the line. As a tram enthusiast I have to tick it off but I'm really not looking forward to the trip.

It should'nt really be too much trouble,Judgement Day,once you travel at a relatively "safe" time.

I would suggest earlier moring or perhaps evening peak and the journey is quite pleasant,with the infrastructure out near the Citywest end very modern and,superficially,impressive.

There is nowt wrong with the line itself or the passengers who are attempting to make it viable.

However,should you make a few trips,you will notice certain things,such as the lack of custom and the empty Park N Ride sites.

Luas Red-Line at this stage should be drawing in regular custom from Blessington and beyond to fill those P & R sites and to establish a "Commuter" pattern,but it's not....and if you conduct a straw poll,the answers tend to revolve around that "feeling" of Safety which potential new users require to instil confidence in them.

Lets us know when you make your maiden trip ??

OurLadyofKnock

darkman2 wrote: »

I think I am in a majority that calls for the line to be dismantled. Anti social behaviour and far worse is the norm on this tram line. Dubliners are intimidated and what of tourists? It goes through the city centre - it is embarrassing and disgraceful. Of course it ferries scum (for free) from Tallaght to the Children's court (great planning that eh?) and no matter what security is on it it will not make any difference. The scumbags have the run of it. When the judge let's the feral children out after 10 convictions they simply hop on the tram and go home (not paying of course and intimidating passengers). I think the line should be closed because it is a free ride for scum in and out of our capital city and addicts looking for the clinic behind Clearys. Until the council use their heads I don't think this line should remain open. I think the line is dangerous and represents an appalling image of this city to tourists who are also at risk of harm.

Only a matter of time before someone is killed within a tram on that line. Mark my words that will happen. Anyone that cannot see the security implications with this line is a complete idiot and clearly has never used the tram.

You're through to LiveLine.

Terrontress

Part of the problem is that the very presence of junkies is enough to make people feel uncomfortable. They could sit still, have a free travel pass or a ticket and make no nuisance of themselves but having to share a space with someone, or a number of people, with the appearance of a junkie is enough to put someone off travelling.

I'm not sure how to resolve that.

bridgepeople

KD345 wrote: »

I use the Red Line daily. There are many problems and they do need to be sorted. If the Luas was a pub or nightclub, it would have been shut down long ago. However, it's an essential service to many people, and to even consider shutting it down should not be entertained.

bridgepeople, you asked about specific experiences - I've witnessed racial abuse, both physical and verbal, assaults, drug dealing, drug use, fare evasion, gangs of teenagers running wild through carriages harassing passengers, junkies, drunks and beggars etc.

Fare evasion, gangs of kids/teens running wild, junkies, drunks and the odd beggar. That is par for the course on the Red line for sure, I agree. Regrettable of course, but if you keep your head down then you won't have any problems for the most part. You'll also get all of that to a lesser extent on the Green line. I haven't witnessed much racial abuse but then maybe I just don't notice it going on.

Your comment about physical violence and assaults stands out for me. I've never seen any physical violence on board the luas except maybe a couple of drunks having a bit of an argument between themselves. Are you suggesting that regular passengers minding their own business (i.e. not junkies etc) are regularly assaulted on the luas? I haven't seen that or heard of it and that would be a major problem if true.

I feel safer being on the Red line that I do walking down the board walk or upstairs on certain bus routes around the city (not saying much to be fair!). Maybe I've just been lucky so far as some have suggested.

KD345

bridgepeople wrote: »

Fare evasion, gangs of kids/teens running wild, junkies, drunks and the odd beggar. That is par for the course on the Red line for sure, I agree. Regrettable of course, but if you keep your head down then you won't have any problems for the most part.

Do you think that's an acceptable way to travel? You might find it regrettable, but many passengers find it terrifying. While I respect your view on the problem, and you might find it's fine to just keep your head down, I really don't think that's a good way for anyone to travel.

bridgepeople wrote: »

Your comment about physical violence and assaults stands out for me. I've never seen any physical violence on board the luas except maybe a couple of drunks having a bit of an argument between themselves. Are you suggesting that regular passengers minding their own business (i.e. not junkies etc) are regularly assaulted on the luas? I haven't seen that or heard of it and that would be a major problem if true.

Yes. I've witnesses physical violence on trams and platforms. I've seen customer service people spat at, witnessed an assault on a woman at the Abbey Street platform, been on a tram where passengers had to remove a guy who tried to assault a female passenger. I've more stories, but I'm sure a simple search of 'red line luas' on this site will give you many other passenger experiences.

It's great you feel safe on the tram. Perhaps you've been lucky or you just have a different view to things than I do. I must point out that while using the service daily, the vast majority of my journeys on the red line are absolutely fine, but at least twice a week I see or experience something which makes me feel I should have walked or taken the bus.

norrie rugger

I would nearly want to experience everything that people are talking about.
I have used the Red Line for years (ever since moving to Dublin) from the Square stop right into James's and never once had the sort of trouble that people are talking about.

I have also used it to go to and from town on Saturday nights and, again, never experienced this hassle.
I guess that I must be the luckiest Luas user ever, to have managed to avoid this huh?

helimachoptor

I havent used it in a while but used it for a couple of years going from the square to connolly.

I seen some off stuff tbh but similar to one of the posters above, once you travel on tube, paris/madrid metro/ S/U bahns in germany you see that this stuff is common.

OurLadyofKnock

You see this kind of thing all over the world. Dublin is not the only place with this problem and the tourists do not need to be patronised as they see this kind of stuff in their own countries.

The problem is in this country the psychopathic halfwitted simpleton built two luas LINES and not a NETWORK this has resulted in both lines developing their own culture almost and we now come to see the Red Line as skangers and the Green Line as nice respectable people.

The idea of taking the line down as the OP suggest is feeding the incompetence of the previous political and business scumbags who caused the mess.

The solution is to complete the NETWORK and not dismatle the Red Line.

The biggest culprits/scumbags of all are the dozens of former ministers now playing golf in Florida and all the other sunny locations as their fully-integrated massive pensions are being delivered to with superb effeciency.

Stark

How does linking the two lines solve the skanger problem? Trust in Fick's law that the skangers will spill onto the Green line if you link the two?

Tarabuses

dowlingm wrote: »

I've made this suggestion before: gardai and military in uniform to get free travel on the LUAS. Not as enforcement but simply raising the tone. Do we really think Line D isn't going to be a sh!tshow with Broombridge at one end if something isn't done?

Edit: from what I read on RUI if line A closes then Kildare-Waterford rail service will go soon after.

I thought gaurds in uniform did get free travel?

OurLadyofKnock

Stark wrote: »

How does linking the two lines solve the skanger problem? Trust in Fick's law that the skangers will spill onto the Green line if you link the two?

I said complete the "network", not just join the two lines making them into one long line.

That's the CIE psychosis - not integrated transport. All the Luas branches city wide need to be completed.

listermint

AlekSmart wrote: »

It should'nt really be too much trouble,Judgement Day,once you travel at a relatively "safe" time.

I would suggest earlier moring or perhaps evening peak and the journey is quite pleasant,with the infrastructure out near the Citywest end very modern and,superficially,impressive.

There is nowt wrong with the line itself or the passengers who are attempting to make it viable.

However,should you make a few trips,you will notice certain things,such as the lack of custom and the empty Park N Ride sites.

Luas Red-Line at this stage should be drawing in regular custom from Blessington and beyond to fill those P & R sites and to establish a "Commuter" pattern,but it's not....and if you conduct a straw poll,the answers tend to revolve around that "feeling" of Safety which potential new users require to instil confidence in them.

Lets us know when you make your maiden trip ??

While i agree with various elements you have drawn, The fact is that these park and ride sites are empty because our economy crashed in 2008, house building stopped. Jobs were lost all over the place and there arent near the levels of ordinary workers that these services were planned for.

Additionally I know of no one from blessington that wouldnt just prefer to stay in the comfort of their car to get to work etc. It has nothing to do with feeling safe. Its ease of operation. jump in my car drive to city and listen to my radio... or park up at a park and ride wait around for a luas then get a connection then travel a further 40 minutes to get to the city centre and walk whereever your going.



The line suffered from stinky planning and trying to service too many areas, because all the TD's had their hands in the pie. It takes too long to get where it needs to go and additionally services many areas along the way already had in place adequate bus services.



I do also have to agree, that having used the entire line since its inception there are users here blowing it totally out of proportion and clearly havent used these types of systems globally. You must all write for the daily mail.