Cyberpunk - CD Project Red

Robert ninja

Cordell wrote: »

Some of the memory usage depends on the textures resolution that are loaded, and that doesn't necessarily scale with the render resolution.

Hopefully one can lower that setting in the config files then. I've been able to do that for some games.

Smiles35

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

Does anybody reckon the features they rolled back will feature in the next gen versions? I say this with the assumption that they cut stuff like third party cut scenes as it was technically demanding as opposed to immersion breaking like they claim.

I got interested enough to attempt to do a script for a short video, not Cyperpunk related, some other way. Some science fiction elements were part of it. Suddenly, what was going to happen to the person (I had that allready worked out) was less relevent than all the other effects. I had dialogue coming out of my ears from the boardroom down. I wanted to intergrate that into it.

It's the change in professions, it's what happens to you as a lifer under control that drives these emotional third party scenes we have seen.

They have new story writers in, people that want to write for this, people that might want to third party develop and they know where they are going. They want to keep them happy and on the long finger most of all in my opinion.

In future games they might keep third party cut sences as introductions to class's, career change being such a life changeing event they require some backround and nearly a new introduction.

Mr Crispy

The crunch is on, according to Bloomberg (may be behind a paywall).

J. Marston

It's a month of paid overtime. What's the big deal?

johnny_ultimate

J. Marston wrote: »

What's the big deal?

*Forced* overtime.

Mandatory crunch can **** right off. Especially after CD Project pledged not to do so.

Kirby

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

*Forced* overtime.

Mandatory crunch can **** right off. Especially after CD Project pledged not to do so.

Long term crunch isn't good but this isn't that.

EVERY industry has crunch. You ever worked retail during Christmas? Or during times like black Friday? How about hotel staff during the same period? and on and on. None of them choose that either. It's a mandatory part of the job.

It's not pleasant but its a reality of life. The constant crunch the gaming industry is infamous for is despicable but its becoming rarer......and this isn't that. The game is weeks away from launch so they need to do some overtime to get it past the post.

It's not a big deal.

johnny_ultimate

Here's CD Projekt last May pledging there'd be no mandatory crunch. They've broken a clear pledge to staff, simple as that. https://kotaku.com/as-cyberpunk-2077-development-intensifies-cd-projekt-r-1834849725

Is a month or so of paid crunch that bad? Compared to some horror stories, no. I don't think anyone would object to there being some extra work required to get a project over the line. But forcing staff to do six-day weeks so for over a month, after pledging not too, is frankly pretty crappy - and I don't think any company should resort to it. And all this in the best case scenario that staff haven't been working intensely for months or even years already.

Mr Crispy

Let's not forget either that it was CDPR bosses who approached Schreier with that announcement of how they were turning over a new leaf. Oh, and the Bloomberg story says some employees have been working mandatory overtime (including nights) for nigh on a year, not a month.

johnny_ultimate

And just to stress: it's also very possible to think CD Projekt make great games and have some great policies on the likes of DRM, while also calling them out when they do something a bit crappy.

pixelburp

Kirby wrote: »

Long term crunch isn't good but this isn't that.

EVERY industry has crunch. You ever worked retail during Christmas? Or during times like black Friday? How about hotel staff during the same period? and on and on. None of them choose that either. It's a mandatory part of the job.

I'm wondering if you ever did crunch with that "that's life" attitude. I have, albeit for about a few 1,2 week stretches (on-off over a 3 month period) so very small in comparison to your Rockstars or CDPs; it was utter hell. Pulling down 12+ hour days, others slept overnight under their desk because they missed their last train home to Drogheda. I was a wreck, physically ill and mentally a disaster zone. I've never been so brittle and on the verge. And that was a couple of weeks - I left the job after those 3 months because I knoew I couldn't do that long term for every project. Cos EVERY project was "life or death" in the eyes of the owners / management. I've never been so drained, so bereft.

I've also worked retail during Christmas and it was a (comparitive) doddle. Primarily 'cos I got to go home when the store actually closed. I at least got cardio, regular breaks, and the ability to take something to eat in the canteen without a line manager hassling you about a pitch document or whatnot.

You're right. Every industry has crunch; but as someone who himself works in software development, I can tell you crunch only prospers in offices or teams with bad management. Retail workers still work retail hours. They still get to go home as opposed to this idea you gotta keep coding at 11pm because Management can't / won't structure a sprint to be humane. It's an industry tailor-made to be logistically easier to manage, roadmap and build products within a time-frame or capacity. The only thing forcing this situation is greed, and selfishness; any project can be organised within a normal working day if good management chooses to.

"That's how it always is" is not a reason, it's a thin excuse - and your analogy fails in that even retail workers can be often unionised. The games industry - and the tech industry as a whole - has no employee representation to step in and stop blatant abuses. Coupled with the notion that there are always more interns and starry-eyed developers keen to break their back off the promise of a foot in the door.

It's not a right of passage, it's just abusive, bad employment and worse management. Things are only a reality of life until they're not. I love CDP's work but the manner in whcih they just dovetail into crunch as a first response to their own self-imposed deadlines or expectations is shítty and they only have themselves to blame.

brevity

Their biggest mistake was opening saying they "don't do crunch"... crunch happens from time to time, it's no ones fault per se, it's just getting a project out sometimes runs into unexpected problems.

I also work in the software development industry and there can be foolish idealized notion of being in the trenches, the comradery of it all, all hands on deck nonsense. It's bollocks. I worked in a start up and the silent exception of working extra hours for no extra pay or benefits was there for all to see. More fool me...

In saying that, if the crunch is outlined properly i.e.
1. It has a distinct end date
2. Paid overtime
3. Bonus/Reward/Time-off at the end of the project.

then I could be on board.

The thing also is, once it's released there is going to probably be a heap of support required - will crunch be required for this?

Cordell

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

*Forced* overtime.

Mandatory crunch can **** right off. Especially after CD Project pledged not to do so.

Not forced, they are free not to do it and walk away.
They're not a sweatshop out in a 3rd world country where it either that or starve. They are in a country in the EU with ample opportunities in the tech field, with plenty of bland corporate jobs available.

johnny_ultimate

Cordell wrote: »

Not forced, they are free not to do it and walk away.
They're not a sweatshop out in a 3rd world country where it either that or starve. They are in a country in the EU with ample opportunities in the tech field, with plenty of bland corporate jobs available.

So either suck up the mandatory six-day weeks or quit? Wow.

I just don’t get why people are so willing to defend what is clearly a bad practice by any standard labour and managerial perspective. Not only is it corporations exploiting workers (and there are degrees of exploitation - but we’re talking about a very specific example here on its own terms), but from a managerial perspective you’re driving workers towards burnout and inefficiency.

Working in a game studio isn’t some magical, dream job where you have to put up with anything they throw at you. It’s a tough, intense gig that is often precarious. Like every single job on the planet, workers deserve to be treated with respect and reasonable hours.

Varik

I don't care how the sausage is made, if anyone else does then they should do something about it other than praising the almost monthly Jason Schreier crunch article which don't seem to achieve anything.

johnny_ultimate

Varik wrote: »

which don't seem to achieve anything.

Actually, it does: https://kotaku.com/18-months-after-red-dead-redemption-2-rockstar-has-mad-1842880524

Cordell

I'm not defending anyone here, because no one needs defending.
The studio and publisher need to meet the deadline, because of preorders and sales opportunities, if they don't they will face cancelled preorders and competition from other games launching in December - e.g. AC:V
The employees have a choice of doing what needs to be done or find other ventures.
What they do is none of our business, and if we do anything about it will be not buying the game which will not help anyone.

And to be perfectly honest, since I already buy clothes and phones and computers made with much more questionable "working arrangements" I'm not going to worry about some lads paid well above average working overtime in cozy offices.

Varik

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Actually, it does: https://kotaku.com/18-months-after-red-dead-redemption-2-rockstar-has-mad-1842880524

So like when CDPR made some promises.

Edit:

Going by how lacklustre and delayed Rockstar's current seasons were I'd put money on another Schreier around December for them.

pixelburp

Cordell wrote: »

I'm not defending anyone here, because no one needs defending.
The studio and publisher need to meet the deadline, because of preorders and sales opportunities, if they don't they will face cancelled preorders and competition from other games launching in December - e.g. AC:V
The employees have a choice of doing what needs to be done or find other ventures.
What they do is none of our business, and if we do anything about it will be not buying the game which will not help anyone.

And to be perfectly honest, since I already buy clothes and phones and computers made with much more questionable "working arrangements" I'm not going to worry about some lads paid well above average working overtime in cozy offices.

The "choice" is a glib and slightly dispassionate myth: people have bills, mortgages, loans and dependents to support. It's nightmare enough to juggle the stress of an intense job, and the expectations and demands just to keep a roof over your & your family's head. It's much easier to find a new job when employed that's true, but when you're already working so much your body gives out it's next to impossible to find the mental or physical energy to ALSO job-hunt. You're doing well just to feed yourself or keep a decent sleep cycle.

Again, I feel for the drones in CDP 'cos I did it. Just taking a simple phonecall to chat to a recruiter or another company I applied for involved leaving the building, which had the knock-on effect of putting my behind schedule on work already demanded as perfection by day's end (I say end because of course that was 9, 10pm). It was actually doubly stressful just trying to get out of the job I walked into. Oh yes, it was my CHOICE, but I had (have) a mortgage I was just about ahead and a bunch of other requirements. Quitting put me in immediate financial danger - and the Notice Period was 3 months anyway. Jesus, what a hole of a place. Job hunting is a crapshoot at the best of times without the actual job you're currently in also making it hard just to get it together long enough to seem professional and coherent.

"Choice" is a reduction because it assumes switching jobs is itself an easy decision, done whenever you feel like it. I work in a relatively prosperous field with many openings - I can't imagine (say) Level Design is a particularly wide and generous field that the ever-stressed have a "choice" to just swap roles.

Cordell

I know how it goes, I've been there and did the crunch time. It is what it is.

pixelburp

Cordell wrote: »

I know how it goes, I've been there and did the crunch time. It is what it is.

Until it isn't. And it starts with highlighting shítty work practises in the more public domain dwelling companies. To whip out the extreme example and I own the hyperbole; child labour was a shoulder-shrugging reality until people stopped it through law. Zero hour contracts are being hounded out because of publicity and exposure as being inherently anti-employee and a legal Sword of Damacles.

Things don't get better until people at least talk about why they're crap in the first place. And putting the emphasis on the employee as their "choice" misses the mark.

Anyway, presumably now we're about to hit the phase of the discussion where folk appeal that they just want to talk about the game. "Take it to another thread!" etc. :rolleyes:

Cordell

It's not the same as child labor or workers that don't have much choice about going on zero hours contract. We're taking about highly skilled and talented individuals knowing how the game industry is before going in and still going in.
I'm sure they'd rather have the bonus than have us worrying about them.

Falthyron

Generally, crunch happens because middle management sell ideas that don't tally against budget and timelines. So, because a bunch of execs make promises they can't cash and have no idea how long it takes to develop what they are asking for, the workers get shafted. That's the issue here.

Exec: "We want to implement coop multiplayer"
Project Manager and Dev team: "That will require 6 months work, our best guess".
Exec: "You have 4 months."
Project Manager and Dev team: "Why? 4 isn't enough"
Exec: "We said we would release in 4 months and we have x amount of pre-orders to fulfill"

pixelburp

Cordell wrote: »

It's not the same as child labor or workers that don't have much choice about going on zero hours contract. We're taking about highly skilled and talented individuals knowing how the game industry is before going in and still going in.
I'm sure they'd rather have the bonus than have us worrying about them.

Exactly: skilled and talented in a still relatively niche industry, known as self-perpetuating in its practices - which can include withholding permanent contracts ala the Zero Hour issue (or, speaking of bonuses, tethering them to Metacritic scores as has/had been done in the past 'til it was highlighted in the public domain). It's not exactly a stable career at the best of times, but nor should it be treated as something akin to a Calling or Vocation either. I'm sure every employee wants to be well paid, have some degree of stability in their employment, with time enough to enjoy their lives; that's blindingly obvious. Especially those older, with families or strict commitments.

Talking about and shaming companies to bother their holes to put structure & good management is not a sin for upsetting a status quo - nor is it particularly difficult to achieve either. Yet somehow it's the responsibility and "choice" of employees to change, rather than the companies to do so? Unfair. The power structure runs entirely downwards in these companies and as with a lot of these things, external public opinion and pressure can be a more powerful tool than otherwise powerless employees speaking up and risking their already flimsy contracts.

The games industry puts pressure on itself to hit these milestones and deadlines, but it's the employees that pay the cheque for these bad, impatient decisions. Just because the "sausage" is made that way doesn't mean it should always be thus. And I daresay can be done without affecting customers' access to their shiny new toys.

This is an instance where yes, everyone can get what they want IMO. There's no real sacrafice needed here, beyond time and effort to make things a little better.

johnny_ultimate

The thing about crunch is it’s an eminently solvable problem. It’s easy to understand - we all know what the reaction would be like if we were told to suddenly work six day weeks for a month after being explicitly told that wouldn’t be the case. And crucially there are clear, workable and feasible ways to address it - unionisation, better project management, even just hiring more staff to get the job done (CD Projekt often boast about their financial ‘war chest’, after all).

Nobody is saying it’s on the same level as child labour or the other systemic examples of exploitation in the global economy. But those are deeply-rooted, fundamental problems that require nothing less than a radical overhaul of global political and economic systems to really address (although brilliant campaigners and journalists have done so much to at least incrementally improve the situation). These issues often arise in deeply secretive places with authoritarian regimes - even reporting on them is a massive challenge, let alone invoking the sort of changes needed. It’s a decades-long process.

Crunch in one Polish game studio is something that’s comparatively far more immediately fixable. We’re talking solely in the context of that. And as we’ve seen reporting on these issues has got the wheels of change moving, so it’s far from a futile exercise to call out the studios who do it.

pixelburp

"Hire more people" is a weird solution in my experience, because while on the face of it is done to lighten the load - can often have the complete reverse result.

So managers look at the larger staff and say "great, we can fit all this extra work now!" rather than try to achieve the original parity; thus the office is then trapped again in overloaded Sprints. Happened with my wife's own office only in the last 12 months with that exact scenario: they needed more heads to help with the load; more heads were hired; so the load became larger because management saw they could take it. But they can't just stop delivering what's asked of them because that reflects badly when Assessments roll around. So the solution? Hire even MORE heads!

As always, it's management. It's only and ever management's "choice" to lighten the load, or communicate the workflows and schedules. And if the drones can deliver, even if it means breaking their backs to do it, then from management's POV they can do it again next time a little push is needed. So it goes.

brevity

pixelburp wrote: »

"Hire more people" is a weird solution in my experience, because while on the face of it is done to lighten the load - can often have the complete reverse result.

Mythical man month

Homelander

Six weeks of paid crunch time before the launch of one of the most anticipated games of all time.

I'm not really getting the shock and outrage.

There are certain periods of almost any job that involve crunch time in some way, shape or form. And worst, in most jobs, it's not compensated...in this case, all the overtime is being paid.

100% not a big deal in the context of the game being talked about.

ERG89

You'd think a game that was delayed twice wouldn't need a final mandatory crunch sprint but its obvious there are still issues that remain at CDPR which were pointed out on Glassdoor reviews a few years ago.

Cordell

brevity wrote: »

Mythical man month

9 women can deliver a baby in 1 month.