Provincial Schools thread 2012-2013 *MOD WARNING POST 1*

Quint2010

profitius wrote: »

Thats some scoring. Is Joe Schmidts arrival as head coach starting to benefit underage level rugby in Leinster now? The strength of the schools game in Leinster helps too I'd say.

Possibly. But I just think it's more down to a particularly talented year. The make up of the Irish Schools team should be interesting.

ormond lad

profitius wrote: »

Thats some scoring. Is Joe Schmidts arrival as head coach starting to benefit underage level rugby in Leinster now? The strength of the schools game in Leinster helps too I'd say.

Dont think JS arrival is directly benefiting but is to a small degree. At all levels his ethos of playing the game is coming through and the confidence in playing to the max of ones ability is really coming through.
Leinster will always do well in schools considering the numbers playing and the standard of coaching in many schools.

Not directly related to the schools cups but Munster A played Connacht in the first A schools interpro in Musgrave Park today.
Many of these players mainly play with their clubs but most will play in the early rounds of the Munster schools cup while some connacht players are in some of the rugby schools. From looking at the programme some of the players are in marist athlone
Munster A schools beat Connacht 16-0 in a great game. Some great skills on show in a game that Munster probably
Munster play Leinster next wednesday in Musgrave Park and the following wednesday in Donnybrook in 2 games where the team with the highest aggregate score after the 2 games wins the joe weafer trophy.

profitius

I asked about Schmidts effect because the arrival of the New Zealanders is really helping Irish rugby move forward. Munster have been a breath of fresh air this season by playing intelligent, heads up rugby, looking to exploit space and being more unpredictable which makes them harder to defend against.

When the interviews for the Munster job were taking place everyone in the media wanted Anthony Foley to get the job. Penney hardly got a mention. Now I see Gerry Thornley admit he was wrong because of the effect Penney has had. No doubt since Schmidt, Penney etc have come in its opened the eyes of the Irish coaches and rugby public to a different brand of rugby and how rugby can (should IMO) be played and this will filter down to underage coaches. Its a slow process but it is happening. I bet Anscombe will have the same effect in Ulster. Already hes trusting young players and getting results.

ormond lad

Big win for Leinster. Surprised they won by that much
Terenure playing an Argentinian school on monday
There was quite a few games played in Munster both at junior and senior level. Glenstal beat St Munchins 52-12 in the Limerick Senior Cup. Considering the margin they lost Id assume Munchins were missing a lot of players.
PBC played Midleton at senior level and played CBC at junior level. Dont know any results for these games.
On friday Castletroy play Ard Scoil Ris in both the Senior and Junior Limerick Cups.
While on Saturday dispite Munster playing Ulster in their final u18 schools interpro Bandon Grammar play Wesley College and Midleton College play CBC
Cistercian Roscrea played the jez today. dont know the result
match report from Munster A schools v Connacht interpro is http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/10834.php

ormond lad

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/domestic/newsroom/10350.php

LEINSTER UNDER-19 (BLUES):
15: Cian Kelleher (St. Michael’s College)
14: Jack Keating (Presentation College, Bray)
13: Adam Byrne (UCD)
12: Sam Sterling (Kilkenny College)
11: Ian Fitzpatrick (The King’s Hospital)
10: Conor McKeon (Gonzaga College SJ)
9: Dermot Lavelle (Gonzaga College SJ)
1: Peter Dooley (Lansdowne)
2: Dylan Donnellan (Clongowes Wood College SJ)
3: Shane Delahunt (UCD) CAPTAIN
4: Robert Somerville (Terenure College)
5: Ross Molony (St. Michael’s College)
6: Jack O’Neill (Castleknock College) VICE CAPTAIN
7: Stephen Keelan (Clongowes Wood College SJ)
8: Sean Coughlan (Blackrock College)
REPLACEMENTS:
16: Matthew Lowe (Gonzaga College SJ)
17: Eoghan McKeever (CBC Monkstown)
18: Brian Cunningham (Lansdowne)
19: Diarmaid Hickey (Kilkenny)
20: Cormac O’Donoghue (Presentation College, Bray)
21: Darragh Henry (Castleknock College)
22: Daniel Jordan (CBC Monkstown)
23: Mark O’Keeffe (St. Michael’s College
24: Dermot O’Flynn (Blackrock College)
25: Andrew Larkin (Belvedere College SJ)

3 youths players starting(1,7,13) on 2 on the bench(18,19).
Great to see nenagh man Sam Sterling start.

Quint2010

ormond lad wrote: »

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/domestic/newsroom/10350.php

3 youths players starting(1,7,13) on 2 on the bench(18,19).
Great to see nenagh man Sam Sterling start.

Think this is the U19 Blue team. Stephen O'Neill broke his ankle in the last game hence the change at centre. Interesting to see Clongowes recruiting Youths players.

themont85

Quint2010 wrote: »

Think this is the U19 Blue team. Stephen O'Neill broke his ankle in the last game hence the change at centre. Interesting to see Clongowes recruiting Youths players.

Really not a fan of it but it is great for the players.

ormond lad

Quint2010 wrote: »

Think this is the U19 Blue team. Stephen O'Neill broke his ankle in the last game hence the change at centre. Interesting to see Clongowes recruiting Youths players.

Very interesting. Dont agree with it at all. Most schools recruit players from youths set up at different times. Rockwells winning Munster senior cup team in March had 4/5 in the 22 and another 3/4 in the panelled squad who had only moved to the school in last september or later in the school year.

themont85 wrote: »

Really not a fan of it but it is great for the players.

Not a fan of it at all. The big schools like clongowes have 3/4 teams at all age groups and dont need anymore players. Highlighting the stronger youths players and bringing them to their school shows to me that winning is the most important thing and player development is behind winning an f'in schools cup in the long term.
In many ways it is great for players as they get to train 3/4 times a week in an environment that they wouldnt otherwise get to play in

ormond lad

Munster Schools side to play Ulster tomorrow in ravenhill
Robbie Deegan (Ard Scoil Ris), Steve McMahon (Rockwell College), JJ O’Neill (Crescent College Comprehensive), Paul Kiernan (PBC), Greg O’Shea (Capt.) (Crescent College Comprehensive), Gearoid Lyons (Crescent College Comprehensive), Ben Riley (Rockwell College), Liam O’Connor (CBC), Luke O’Halloran (St. Munchin’s College), Liam McMahon (Crescent College Comprehensive), Dylan Lane (PBC), Mike O’Donnell (Crescent College Comprehensive), Ben Kilkenny (St. Munchin’s College), David St. Ledger (PBC), Cormac Blake (Crescent College Comprehensive)
Replacements: Denis O’Connell (Rockwell College), Sean McNulty (Rockwell College), Greg Roche (CBC), Frank Bradshaw Ryan (Ard Scoil Ris), Morgan Carey (PBC), John Poland (PBC), Aidan Moynihan (Rockwell College), Steven Fitzgerald (Ard Scoil Ris), Tomas Quinlan (CBC), Conor Flanagan (PBC), Edward O’Keefe (St. Munchin’s College).
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/10842.php

themont85

ormond lad wrote: »

Very interesting. Dont agree with it at all. Most schools recruit players from youths set up at different times. Rockwells winning Munster senior cup team in March had 4/5 in the 22 and another 3/4 in the panelled squad who had only moved to the school in last september or later in the school year.

Not a fan of it at all. The big schools like clongowes have 3/4 teams at all age groups and dont need anymore players. Highlighting the stronger youths players and bringing them to their school shows to me that winning is the most important thing and player development is behind winning an f'in schools cup in the long term.
In many ways it is great for players as they get to train 3/4 times a week in an environment that they wouldnt otherwise get to play in

That's ridiculous at a micro level. It might help you win short term but leaves a bitter taste for some in the school about losing spots and the school's priorities.

For Irish rugby though, tbh it is good. Getting some of the brightest Youths into schools level (which is a big step up from Youths) and getting them in training as you say a few times a week is great. Being in a boarding environment and the access to facilities and coaching they wouldn't get otherwise is fantastic. It would certainly help in targeting talented multi football code athletes for instance and keeping them in rugby.

ormond lad

themont85 wrote: »

That's ridiculous at a micro level. It might help you win short term but leaves a bitter taste for some in the school about losing spots and the school's priorities.

For Irish rugby though, tbh it is good. Getting some of the brightest Youths into schools level (which is a big step up from Youths) and getting them in training as you say a few times a week is great. Being in a boarding environment and the access to facilities and coaching they wouldn't get otherwise is fantastic. It would certainly help in targeting talented multi football code athletes for instance and keeping them in rugby.

Yes it is ridiculous but it is not good. Some schools rugby is a step up from youths in many ways but Schools rugby is not the be all and end all. Multi Sport athletes can be kept playing rugby without going to boarding schools/rugby schools.
The Leinster schools all do the same. Stephen Keelan who is on the Leinster 19s this year is down as Clongowes but only moved there in the last year as he was a leinster youth last september.
It isnt good for irish rugby as it suggests if you want to do well you have to go to an expensive fee paying school.
Being in a boarding environment can be great but it is a totally different environment to what the vast majority of people go through and suggests rugby is still elitest
If schools are to take in players they must release a player in kind so that kid,if possible, can go play youths rugby in a club

Ulster u18 schools and 19s teams named for tomorrows games
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/news/10812.php

Oldboy 92

ormond lad wrote: »

Yes it is ridiculous but it is not good. Some schools rugby is a step up from youths in many ways but Schools rugby is not the be all and end all. Multi Sport athletes can be kept playing rugby without going to boarding schools/rugby schools.
The Leinster schools all do the same. Stephen Keelan who is on the Leinster 19s this year is down as Clongowes but only moved there in the last year as he was a leinster youth last september.
It isnt good for irish rugby as it suggests if you want to do well you have to go to an expensive fee paying school.
Being in a boarding environment can be great but it is a totally different environment to what the vast majority of people go through and suggests rugby is still elitest
If schools are to take in players they must release a player in kind so that kid,if possible, can go play youths rugby in a club

Ulster u18 schools and 19s teams named for tomorrows games
http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/news/10812.php

Surely the term "Recruit" is a personal view and people need to use the term in context. Their are a multitude of reasons for any boy moving schools! My own son is on a waiting list in 2 boarding schools and although he is a rugby player our decision has nothing to do with whether he plays JCT or SCT. In naming a player and suggesting he has been "Recruited" is unfair to the kid, unless you have personal knowledge of the named player and if you do, I stand corrected.

fox_1973

Leinster u19s 30 Ulster u19s 16

And just like the 18s clash on the Wednesday, the ref was of very poor quality, making errors affecting both sides, but unlike, Wednesday at least it didnt cost me 10 euro to witness it

ormond lad

Oldboy 92 wrote: »

Surely the term "Recruit" is a personal view and people need to use the term in context. Their are a multitude of reasons for any boy moving schools! My own son is on a waiting list in 2 boarding schools and although he is a rugby player our decision has nothing to do with whether he plays JCT or SCT. In naming a player and suggesting he has been "Recruited" is unfair to the kid, unless you have personal knowledge of the named player and if you do, I stand corrected.

You have a point about their being a multitude of reasons for someone moving school but in the vast vast majority of cases it is rugby that is the driving point behind the kids moving esp those who move just for 6th year or to repeat their leaving cert. Look at danny barnes, donnacha ryan as just a few examples and they are just some of the lads who made it to pro who moved for rugby reasons. there has been many more as well as those 2
I could be wrong and naming a player is unfair is something i shouldnt have done but its clear to quite a few people IMO that the schools do "recruit" talented players from the youths system after watching them play at provincial or the sub provincial regional level.

ormond lad

fox_1973 wrote: »

Leinster u19s 30 Ulster u19s 16

And just like the 18s clash on the Wednesday, the ref was of very poor quality, making errors affecting both sides, but unlike, Wednesday at least it didnt cost me 10 euro to witness it

Normally from what ive seen of interpros the past 6/7 years many refs are up and coming refs and are good refs.
Match report from that u19 blue v ulster game is below
http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/domestic/newsroom/10350.php

themont85

Schools is a huge step up from Youths after the age of 14, that's just the way our system is built.

ormond lad

themont85 wrote: »

Schools is a huge step up from Youths after the age of 14, that's just the way our system is built.

Not from 14. At junior level the gap isnt that far at all. Its when kids enter senior cycle in school that the gap grows.
That is the way the system is at the moment but the youths side has grown in numbers, strength, depth and is getting closer and closer at the senior age groups in many ways

Schools friendlies this week, i presume some interpros will be back playing considering the 18s schools interpros are finished, 19s interpros wont be back as theyve games next weekend.

themont85

ormond lad wrote: »

Not from 14. At junior level the gap isnt that far at all. Its when kids enter senior cycle in school that the gap grows.
That is the way the system is at the moment but the youths side has grown in numbers, strength, depth and is getting closer and closer at the senior age groups in many ways

Schools friendlies this week, i presume some interpros will be back playing considering the 18s schools interpros are finished, 19s interpros wont be back as theyve games next weekend.

How?

ormond lad

themont85 wrote: »

How?

more numbers playing, better coaching, more and more resources being spent on youths rugby. provincial u18 clubs sides are getting as good as u18provincial schools sides in many cases.
The club sides are also improving to a great extent
Shannon-St Marys, last seasons u19 all ireland youths champions played st munchin, munster schools cup finalists and lost to them by a score or two. In the past the schools side would have won by 40-50 points
It may be the way the system is built at the moment but the total fascination on schools rugby is crazy especially considering only half the number of 13-19 year olds playing rugby in ireland play in rugby playing schools.

rugby_fan

I would agree with you Ormond Lad that the gap between the youths and schools is closing due to more resources being put in place for the youths etc however it's is still clear too see that not many make the break through when the two come together, with only two from the youths starting on the Leinster 19s blue team and one more starting with a year in a rugby school behind him

Oldboy 92

ormond lad wrote: »

You have a point about their being a multitude of reasons for someone moving school but in the vast vast majority of cases it is rugby that is the driving point behind the kids moving esp those who move just for 6th year or to repeat their leaving cert. Look at danny barnes, donnacha ryan as just a few examples and they are just some of the lads who made it to pro who moved for rugby reasons. there has been many more as well as those 2
I could be wrong and naming a player is unfair is something i shouldn't have done but its clear to quite a few people IMO that the schools do "recruit" talented players from the youths system after watching them play at provincial or the sub provincial regional level.

Agree with you, if any player has talent then why not improve the environment in which you train and play. Did some snooping re that one player, apparently he is heading down the medicine route so I can see the appeal of the boarding school for him. Are there any other Youths players or pupils who have moved schools that you know of??? Are repeat students eligible for SCT?

ormond lad

rugby_fan wrote: »

I would agree with you Ormond Lad that the gap between the youths and schools is closing due to more resources being put in place for the youths etc however it's is still clear too see that not many make the break through when the two come together, with only two from the youths starting on the Leinster 19s blue team and one more starting with a year in a rugby school behind him

Yes theres only 5 on the 19s blue team(the guy in clongowes doesnt have a year of schools rugby behind him as he played irish youths last march/april so hasnt been in a rugby school that long) and on the 19s white side there is 8/9 youths players and over the next few years more and more youths players will make these combined squads and go on to make the breakthrough and play 20s and further.

ormond lad

Oldboy 92 wrote: »

Agree with you, if any player has talent then why not improve the environment in which you train and play. Did some snooping re that one player, apparently he is heading down the medicine route so I can see the appeal of the boarding school for him. Are there any other Youths players or pupils who have moved schools that you know of??? Are repeat students eligible for SCT?

yes repeat students are eligible for SCT though not for long in Munster if new rules are put in place as you'll have to be in school a full school year before playing SCT
There has been plenty of youths players who moved schools, i could name plenty in munster who moved for 6th year/repeated 6th year after schools off the top of my head but not as many off the top of my head who moved to schools in leinster
Yes i can see the appeal of moving to a boarding school system but saying its great that talented youths players should def move to a rugby school, in the most part a fee paying boarding school, to progress their rugby career sends out the wrong image.
Schools rugby has many benefits but the fascination with it is ridiculous and many players can, have done and will make it to pro level, top club level without going anywhere near a rugby playing school and playing in the Leinster Schools Cup
Anyway this is going off topic and this discussion could go on and on and nearly deserves its own thread
Will 'nure's and all the other u18/19 interpros be playing in the friendlies this week?

rugby_fan

Player from clongowes wasn't on the Irish youths as he wasn't eligible cause of being in school!

Wouldn't say the 19s inter pro players will be in action anyway cause still have one more match with Leinster to play!

clubrug

ormond lad wrote: »

Yes theres only 5 on the 19s blue team(the guy in clongowes doesnt have a year of schools rugby behind him as he played irish youths last march/april so hasnt been in a rugby school that long) and on the 19s white side there is 8/9 youths players and over the next few years more and more youths players will make these combined squads and go on to make the breakthrough and play 20s and further.

That Clongowes lad did not play Irish youths 2012 Ormond lad, moved to Clongowes 2011, don't believe he was recruited, father is connected there as far as I know.
In Munstert school "Recruiting" is certainly alive and well, would be great to see more resources going to clubs, they are really struggling with 19s age group.

Last weekend for 19s next weekend, hopefully munster 18s club go well today

themont85

ormond lad wrote: »

more numbers playing, better coaching, more and more resources being spent on youths rugby. provincial u18 clubs sides are getting as good as u18provincial schools sides in many cases.
The club sides are also improving to a great extent
Shannon-St Marys, last seasons u19 all ireland youths champions played st munchin, munster schools cup finalists and lost to them by a score or two. In the past the schools side would have won by 40-50 points
It may be the way the system is built at the moment but the total fascination on schools rugby is crazy especially considering only half the number of 13-19 year olds playing rugby in ireland play in rugby playing schools.

This statement has little basis of reality behind it. For example, the Irish u18 clubs team were beaten by Italy last year. The same Italy afaik were second last at the 18s European Championships, where the Irish schools side came second.

I have no doubt that certain Youth teams every year have good teams but in the main, they cannot compete with teams training 4/5 times a week and who have all the ancillary benefits of being effectively full time. Add to that the schools bias in rules and the clubs can't compete.

My cousins club team who were great at 12-13-14 were stripped apart by the time they all entered school. The standard dropped significantly around their age group. Some clubs, where schools aren't as embedded benefited from this. The standard of club age grade rugby in mid to late teens is pretty bloody awful in Leinster anyway.

ormond lad

themont85 wrote: »

This statement has little basis of reality behind it. For example, the Irish u18 clubs team were beaten by Italy last year. The same Italy afaik were second last at the 18s European Championships, where the Irish schools side came second.

I have no doubt that certain Youth teams every year have good teams but in the main, they cannot compete with teams training 4/5 times a week and who have all the ancillary benefits of being effectively full time. Add to that the schools bias in rules and the clubs can't compete.

My cousins club team who were great at 12-13-14 were stripped apart by the time they all entered school. The standard dropped significantly around their age group. Some clubs, where schools aren't as embedded benefited from this. The standard of club age grade rugby in mid to late teens is pretty bloody awful in Leinster anyway.

Irish youths did lose by a score or so to Italy and schools did win but Irish youths didnt get same level of attention as they had less games etc to prepare.
Youths clubs sides are nowhere near the schools in many ways and never really will as the schools game totally dominates but in Munster the top clubs are as good as the schools. As regional sides get more and more resources put into them the regional youths sides will compete with and beat several of the schools when/if they play each other
You dont see a lot of youths rugby if you think the standard of u16-19 rugby in Leinster is "pretty bloody awful"

ormond lad

clubrug wrote: »

That Clongowes lad did not play Irish youths 2012 Ormond lad, moved to Clongowes 2011, don't believe he was recruited, father is connected there as far as I know.
In Munstert school "Recruiting" is certainly alive and well, would be great to see more resources going to clubs, they are really struggling with 19s age group.

Last weekend for 19s next weekend, hopefully munster 18s club go well today

Fergal Cleary who has started on the leinster u18 schools this month was an irish youth in 2012. see http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/25665.php
Some clubs are struggling with 19s but they are fielding. Slight changes have been made to ensure teams can field at 19s

rugby_fan

Talking about youths players that makes the cut when it comes to u19 where both clubs and schools combine, so we werent talking about Fergal Cleary as he is still u18, Stephen Keelan being the player playing with the u19s

ormond lad

rugby_fan wrote: »

Talking about youths players that makes the cut when it comes to u19 where both clubs and schools combine, so we werent talking about Fergal Cleary as he is still u18, Stephen Keelan being the player playing with the u19s

sorry got slightly mixed up. Keelan played leinster youths in sept/oct 2011 and played senior cup last feb/march
Schools Leagues in Leinster start wednesday week