Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

SpionJoe

Guys,

Am I out of my depth here,? all i want to do is Finish the marathon.

All this talk of pace and 9 minute miles has my head screwed.
When i first seen the Higdon novice plan it look easy to follow, now we have moved into PB's and LSR ...aaahhhhhh :eek:

Micilin Muc

+1 to Long Runs run at a slower pace.

DCM '11 was the first marathon I trained for and I didn't heed the advice given here for the LSR pace. I had a goal of doing the marathon under 4 hours which should have meant running LSRs in the 10.00 to 10:55 min/mile pace range. I ran harder than this as I did my my LSRs in the hills which took longer to recover from. My Tuesday session suffered a lot from this and I got demotivated a lot. My focusing on sub-4 was in vain as I finished in 4:42. I have no doubt that my harder-intensity long runs were the cause. In hindsight, I should have focused on enjoying the experience of the marathon. By all means choose a goal time for the marathon so you have guidelines for your training, but your race time is not the be-all and end-all.

Since DCM I have done all my LSRs at the prescribed pace and intensity and I got 3:56 in the Connemarathon a few weeks ago (probably equivalent to 3:50 in DCM terms). I did the training right and I enjoyed the race a lot more as a result.

Enjoyment should be the primary goal of all novices.

Mr Slow

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Enjoyment should be the primary goal of all novices.

This.

Rule No.1 - You only get one first marathon, savour it. There's plenty of time to chase the clock later.

BobMac104

SpionJoe wrote: »

Guys,

Am I out of my depth here,? all i want to do is Finish the marathon.

All this talk of pace and 9 minute miles has my head screwed.
When i first seen the Higdon novice plan it look easy to follow, now we have moved into PB's and LSR ...aaahhhhhh :eek:

Absolutely not! you are more than able

Its straight forward. take it handy and you'll get there. dont worry about the rest of it until much further down the line. at the moment just focus on getting out the door and getting your miles up to where you can do the first week of the programme when the time comes.

Younganne

SpionJoe wrote: »

Guys,

Am I out of my depth here,? all i want to do is Finish the marathon.

All this talk of pace and 9 minute miles has my head screwed.
When i first seen the Higdon novice plan it look easy to follow, now we have moved into PB's and LSR ...aaahhhhhh :eek:

I meant to address this in my post as i don't want anyone to think they are out of their depth...our plan will be the Hal Novice 1 plan with no changes, as the goal is to finish. The talk of pace etc is from people who have more experience at running than some of the Novices and that's no problem. The main aim of this thread is to get you to the start line and to finish the Marathon...time goals are a personal choice....

keep with the thread and you'll be glad you did. More importantly You'll only ever have 1 first marathon ...so enjoy it:D

Younganne

i see i'm slower than Mr Slow:eek:...but see he is saying the same thing!!!

iliketorun

hi, I'm set on doing this marathon again since the first one I did was so enjoyable despite the problems I had the months before it. I'm more sensible now with regards to training. Looking back, my training last year was atrocious and I was lucky to get through it, so this will be the first one where I am properly prepared.
Last year I thought running at an easy pace was pointless, and every single run I did was faster than the 7:40 pace I did in marathon. My LSRs were actually 10secs/mile faster. Bad idea. Can finally see the logic of going slower. Was thinking 50secs/mile slower might be good idea and do last mile at marathon pace. Won't get a plan together until beginning of july, but I'm doing long runs every week at the moment anyway. 90-120 mins.
Not sure what my marathon goal pace will be, but I'll decide that before I started an official program. My problem last year was that I kept changing my goal after every run I did last year.
Would be nice to get to know people here and meet up for runs as I have been on my own all the time since I started running.
I'll probably have lots of questions from experienced runners here over the next few months.

Mr Slow

Here is where you'll find group runs:)

shazkea

SpionJoe wrote: »

Guys,

Am I out of my depth here,? all i want to do is Finish the marathon.

All this talk of pace and 9 minute miles has my head screwed.
When i first seen the Higdon novice plan it look easy to follow, now we have moved into PB's and LSR ...aaahhhhhh :eek:

As Bob and Anne have said, absolutely not. This is the thread for you. I can assure you, like every novice here, my main aim is to cross both the start & finish line injury free (preferably on the same day!!) and enjoy the whole experience.

Apologies if I have scared anyone with talks of pace runs etc, but if it was left up to me I'd have thrown myself at all the runs way too quickly. As I need to start my plan next week, I was just making sure I start it right and not wind up injured in a few weeks.

Now I've got the picture; slow, slow and then some more slow makes for a good marathon training experience

Main aim for all us novices is to enjoy it and get over the finish line - time is not important.

Pacing Mule

I love the idea of this thread !

It is my intention to run the marathon but I am not 100% sure if I would be capable of it this year.

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
First proper race was the Samsung 10k - a fairly slow 68 minutes. In training I have managed 64 minutes. I have ran 5 miles in 49 minutes and 10k in 64 minutes during training.

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do!
Sometimes - I ran the 10k slow and steady without stopping. If I speed up too much I can't last that kind of distance and need a walk break.

How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
3-4 runs per week at the moment. Have recently started mixing the distances / pacing. I had been doing mainly around 5 miles each time but realise now that was counter producitve.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
I'd be happy to finish before they took the line down to be honest. Dream time for me would be under 4 hours.

How many days a week can you train?
Could move up to 5 days a week.

Why are you running this marathon?
I've always had an interest in running a marathon but never did anything about it. It seems like a great personal achievement and something to be very proud of. I started running in January (had a brief flirtation with it couple of years ago too) primairly to lose weight and get fit. I was 16 stone at the time - am south of 14 and a half now, and am really happy with the weight loss. I know I still have a way to go and I think that the focus of training for a marathon would be a big help (that said am also aware that marathon training can require extra eating to sustain and isn't to be viewed as a weight loss tool)

So that's me - When I look at week 1 of the Hal Higdon program I tell myself I am capable of that. However I don't know if 4 weeks from now I'd be able to run 9 miles so I'm undecided if I need to be a bit fitter / more experienced a runner to do this - in which case I would wait until next year to do it. I suppose I need to see how I am doing closer to the June program start.

coalshed

Hi All,

plenty of food for thought already on this thread, particularly regarding pace and the LSR.

I'm in the final stages of deciding to do this years DCM. Well, I am going to do it, but I haven't publicly come out of the "I'm runing the marathon" closet yet

I started running last year, and considered the marathon then, but thought the training just looked like too much dedication was required. This year I'm more into running, in better shape and have changed my tune so I'm ready to put in the work!

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Race Series 5 mile 2011 41.49
Race Series 10 mile 2011 1.26.38
Wexford Half (April 2012) 1.45.18
Samsung Night Run 10k: 47.07

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do!
Nope

How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant

I was doing 3/4 runs per week most weeks since the end of January in preparation for the Wexford Half.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
I'm training for 3.45 and would be pleased to come in under 4 hours, delighted to finish at all!

How many days a week can you train?
I'm planning on 5.

Why are you running this marathon?
I enjoy running and I'd like to see what I can do with this 37 year old body of mine. I've toyed with focussing on shorter distances and trying to get faster at them, but now I reckon there'll never be a better time to step up to Marathon distance. Carpe Diem and all that.

I'm going to be training using a plan laid out by the Adidas MiCoach app. I've been using this app pretty much since the start and have found it great for pacing and analysing on my progress by synching my runs with the website. It helped me achieve my goal of a 1.45 half so I'm reluctant to change. In short, I highly recommend it if you aren't doing the Hal Higdon program.

BobMac104

coalshed wrote: »

........ Well, I am going to do it, but I haven't publicly come out of the "I'm runing the marathon" closet yet .........

.

:pac:I was the same, very few knew i was doing it until the week before. Welcome aboard and best of luck

Younganne

Pageant/Coalshed Welcome...
Pageant....jump in at week 6(now) or week 7 (from Monday) in this plan and it will bring your right up to the start of marathon 18 week plan with you being able to do the first week of the plan. After that the miles will increase slowly....see how the training is going in a couple of months and decide then, but get training anyway because you can't jump into the middle of a Marathon plan

Don't worry too much about it for the moment. There is lots of training to do and you will be able to do the marathon if you follow the program.

Just one thing regarding food and marathon training...you don't really need to increase the amount of food you'll be eating during marathon training. You won't be doing enougt weekly miles to support increased food intake. This is more for lads doing 50+ miles a week.
Its more important to eat healthy than eat more.....

coalshed

Younganne wrote: »

Pageant/Coalshed Welcome...
Pageant....jump in at week 6(now) or week 7 (from Monday) in this plan and it will bring your right up to the start of marathon 18 week plan with you being able to do the first week of the plan. After that the miles will increase slowly....see how the training is going in a couple of months and decide then, but get training anyway because you can't jump into the middle of a Marathon plan

Thanks Younganne. To clarify, I started training again last night after a break following the Half Marathon so I'll be on 5 runs a week from next week. Looking forward to it.

Cheers Bobmac104. I still think I'll stay in the closet with friends and family for a couple of months

Younganne

coalshed wrote: »

Thanks Younganne. To clarify, I started training again last night after a break following the Half Marathon so I'll be on 5 runs a week from next week. Looking forward to it.

Cheers Bobmac104. I still think I'll stay in the closet with friends and family for a couple of months

Cheers Coalshed, that was more for Pageant Messiah..he/she is a bit worried about being able for the week 1 in the plan...

fair play that was great time on the Half...no bother to you for the marathon training...enjoy:)

Pacing Mule

Younganne wrote: »

Long Slow Run, this issue comes up every year many times. The lads have given the reasons above why its so important to do it slow.... The problem for most people at this stage is that they don’t know their planned marathon pace...so for now here are some guides if you want to check a different time check here


Goal finish time = Marathon Pace (miles per hr/km per hr) = LSR Pace (miles per hr/km per hr)


3.30 = 8.01mph/4.59kmph = 8.31-9.31 mph/5.18-5.55kmph|
3.45 = 8.36mph/5.20kmph = 9.06-10.06 mph/5.39-6.16kmph|
4.00 = 9.10mph/5.42kmph = 9.40-10.40 mph/6.00-6.38kmph|
4.15 = 9.44mph/6.03kmph = 10.14-11.14mph/6.22-6.59kmph|
4.30 = 10.19mph/6.25kmph = 10.49-11.49mph/6.43-7.20kmph|
4.45 = 10.53mph/6.46kmph = 11.23-12.23mph/7.04-7.42kmph|
5.00 = 11.28mph/7.07kmph = 11.58-12.58mph/7.26-8.03kmph|

I'm a bit confused by this - maybe my brain has failed me. How can it be that you need to run faster to get the slower times

My reading of that is a 3.30 hour time requires a pace of 8.01mph whereas a 5 hour time requires a faster 11.28mph.

Again sticking with a 5 hour time 7.07 kmph pace would take around 6 hours to complete a 42 and a bit kilometre marathon by my maths.

Then the conversions kilometres per hour are faster than miles per hour - 8.01mph is 12.87kmph but in the chart it's 4.59

If someone could point out whatever silly noobie embarrassing mistake I have made I'd be grateful !

menoscemo

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

I'm a bit confused by this - maybe my brain has failed me. How can it be that you need to run faster to get the slower times

My reading of that is a 3.30 hour time requires a pace of 8.01mph whereas a 5 hour time requires a faster 11.28mph.

Again sticking with a 5 hour time 7.07 kmph pace would take around 6 hours to complete a 42 and a bit kilometre marathon by my maths.

Then the conversions kilometres per hour are faster than miles per hour - 8.01mph is 12.87kmph but in the chart it's 4.59

If someone could point out whatever silly noobie embarrassing mistake I have made I'd be grateful !

That's a mistake for sure, I hadn't noticed.

The paces shown should be minutes per KM/Mile not miles/KM per Hour

Younganne

The paces are mile per hr......

If you run at a pace of 8.01 miles per hr it will take you 209min (3hrs 29min) to complete the marathon

if you run at a pace of 11.28 mile per hr it will take 296 min to run the marathon 4hr 55min)

you are making me doubt myself now...:o:o

the table shows the goal time which gives the pace of mile per hr to run at and this give the LSR pace for running at


Edit: ok i see where the problem is - the pace per hr should be in minutes not mile per hr so yes you are correct...i think in pace where 8 mile pace is faster than 11 mile pace

menoscemo

Younganne wrote: »

The paces are mile per hr......

If you run at a pace of 8.01 miles per hr it will take you 209min (3hrs 29min) to complete the marathon

if you run at a pace of 11.28 mile per hr it will take 296 min to run the marathon 4hr 55min)

you are making me doubt myself now...:o:o

the table shows the goal time which gives the pace of mile per hr to run at and this give the LSR pace for running at

If you run at 11.28 Mile per hour, you'll be finished i just over 2 hrs , in 2 hrs you'll have covered 22.56 miles and only have 3.7 to go.

I think those paces are deniftely minutes per mile/km.

Pacing Mule

Sorry for throwing the spanner in the works !

Mr Slow

Ok the general rule of thumb is that your LSR's should be run at a pace which is 45 secs to a minute slower than your planned race pace, don't however fall into the trap of thinking that you'll automatically run 45 secs faster on the day.

Any of you coming from little or no base are going to run the marathon close to your LSR pace. Your times from other races will give you an idea of what time you should be targetting.

Younganne

Younganne wrote: »

Long Slow Run, this issue comes up every year many times. The lads have given the reasons above why its so important to do it slow.... The problem for most people at this stage is that they don’t know their planned marathon pace...so for now here are some guides if you want to check a different time check here


Goal finish time = Marathon Pace (pace per mile/pace per km) = LSR Pace (pace per mile/pace per km)


3.30 = 8.01 min/mile/4.59 min/km = 8.31-9.31 min/mile/5.18-5.55 min/km
3.45 = 8.36 min/mile/5.20 min/km = 9.06-10.06 min/mile/5.39-6.16 min/km
4.00 = 9.10 min/mile/5.42 min/km = 9.40-10.40 min/mile/6.00-6.38 min/km
4.15 = 9.44 min/mile/6.03 min/km= 0.14-11.14 min/mile/6.22-6.59 min/km
4.30 =10.19 min/mile/6.25 min/km= 10.49-11.49 min/mile/6.43-7.20 min/km|
4.45 = 10.53min/mile/6.46min/km = 11.23-12.23min/mile/7.04-7.42min/km|
5.00 = 11.28min/mile/7.07min/km = 11.58-12.58min/mile/7.26-8.03min/km|

And remember build up slowly and keep things nice and easy. The more miles you are doing the more miles you have to do at a slower pace than normal to allow your body adapt to the extra load

Some more details on the LONG SLOW RUN:D
The most important workout in your marathon training programme is the long run. This is the run you can't really skimp on, the one you really can't do without. When things start getting tough on race day - and they will get tough - the long runs are the training sessions you'll draw strength from. The memory of those miles, in your head and in your legs, could be the thing that pulls you through.

In the first week of the training plan, the 'long' run is 6 miles. 6 miles is not long at all - most of you will have raced that distance already, let alone run it in training. But that distance will build up over the weeks, to 10, 14, 18, 20 miles, distances that are probably worrying you even now . It is important to approach these long runs correctly, right from the beginning, so that as the distances increase you can still handle them.

That means running them slowly.

Your Long Slow Run pace should be 60-90 seconds slower than your planned marathon pace (PMP). If you don't know what your PMP is, that's okay - run at a pace that you can hold a comfortable conversation at. You're still not sure? Slow down some more. In the early weeks of the programme, and early in your runs, you are going to feel like you're barely crawling along. That's just right.

Lot's of people have trouble understanding this, and it's one of the most common marathon questions people have - "If I plan to run the marathon at 9 minute miles, and I feel I can go out and do my long run at 9 minute miles, why do you want me to slow down?"

The problem is, you might be able to run your long run at PMP, but it will exhaust you. Improving your running fitness is an incremental process. It's not about doing one great training session, it's about getting out for your 4/5 runs this week and doing them all well, and doing the same next week, and the week after. Consistency of training is the key to improvement, so you need to be recovered from your long runs in a couple of days - and you won't be if you've run at PMP.

Running faster, and spending less time on your runs, would compromise some of the benefits of your long runs. The longer runs are training your body for endurance running. Your body needs to get better at burning fat, as well as carbohydrates for energy (because you can't store enough carbs for a marathon and when they run out, you hit the wall). Your legs need to get better at using different muscle groups in running. Your feet need to get used to the pounding. You need practice at maintaining good running form when tired. All of these things are easier when you are running slowly.

There is also a mental benefit to the long runs. The marathon is going to take you 4 to 5 hours to run. That can be emotionally exhausting. But the experience of spending hours on your LSRs will make you better prepared for marathon day.

So, three things to remember about your LSRs
· They are the most important sessions every week
· Make sure you get your longest LSRs in (18/20 miles)
· Run them slowly

made the changes to the Table above:o

Mrs Noc

coalshed wrote: »

I'm in the final stages of deciding to do this years DCM. Well, I am going to do it, but I haven't publicly come out of the "I'm runing the marathon" closet yet

I'm telling anyone that cares to listen that I'm doing the marathon, that way I have to do it!

gnu

I was wondering how you measure your pace - do you all use Garmins/smartphones etc?

And sorry if this has already been mentioned (I've tried to keep up but it's not easy!) but how do you know if your slow pace is slow enough? Is it by heart rate or breathing or something else?

Thanks!

BobMac104

gnu wrote: »

I was wondering how you measure your pace - do you all use Garmins/smartphones etc?

And sorry if this has already been mentioned (I've tried to keep up but it's not easy!) but how do you know if your slow pace is slow enough? Is it by heart rate or breathing or something else?

Thanks!

You don't have to go out and get a garmin. You can just use a cheap stop watch over a know distance. For most of my training for Dublin last year i got the distance using map my run (a website that you can plan your routes on ) and just looked at the clock before and after the run and worked out my pace from that. Its not ideal but it works ok.

Dow99

Ok,, gonna do this,,, I'm doing the Kildare half next week aiming for a sub 2hr,, but anything under 2.10 I'll be delighted.... The goal this year is to do the Dublin marathon - hopefully I stay injury free and can get there!!

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Great Ireland Run '10 - 1.04
Dublin Half 2010- 2.16.
Connemarathon Half 2012 - 2.20
Great Ireland Run '12 10k - 55min


Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No problem if you do!
Ah sometimes, on a 16km run might take a walking break for a min or 2. Not that I really need to, just lazy I suppose.


How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
3 to 4 times a week,, during the week I seem to stick to 5km and at the weekend 12km to 16km.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
Really just want to finish in a respectable time under 4.30.

How many days a week can you train?
really wouldnt want to be running any more than 4 or 5 times a week,,

Why are you running this marathon?
Bucket list and love running and improving my fitness / distance / time

shazkea

Welcome to the madhouse Dow. Good luck with the sub 2 attempt next week in Kildare. Def an easier course than Conn :-)

Trampas

I am sure I am not the only one here who finds it hard to believe that we should be running slower than we want to do for the race but we are 1st timers so your knowledge is beneficial for us novices.

But that doesn't mean I am not listening as tomorrow I am going to do 10km + tomorrow at a much slower pace than I would have done.

I would have targeted around 5.30 to 5.40 but will be over the 6 min pace.

Sorry I am a km man.

coalshed

Trampas wrote: »

Sorry I am a km man.

Me too, I find it much harder to visualise a mile...and the Km's come around that much faster

Younganne

coalshed wrote: »

Me too, I find it much harder to visualise a mile...and the Km's come around that much faster

My excuse is my age :eek:...can't convert to KM now..will stick to the miles thanks very much:D