Dublin Marathon 2012 - Mentored Novices Thread

neilc

Not sure how I missed this thread up to now. The very best of luck to the novice class of 2012. You're all in great hands with Younganne.

menoscemo

Nules10 wrote: »

Ahh jaysus Meno you are making an awful lot of sense :D

I haven't drank for almost 4 days :eek:

Nules10

menoscemo wrote: »

I haven't drank for almost 4 days :eek:

:D Suits you

digger2d2

menoscemo wrote: »

I haven't drank for almost 4 days :eek:

Brianderunner was offering 66/1 on that :D

rainbow kirby

menoscemo wrote: »

I haven't drank for almost 4 days :eek:

Building up your liver for Limerick? :pac:

neilc wrote: »

The very best of luck to the novice class of 2012. You're all in great hands with Younganne.

Also +1'ing this.

shortie_chik

menoscemo wrote: »

Marathon is distinct to training for other races (up to HM) as it is more about teaching your body to be fuel efficient rather than teaching it how to go faster. For anything up to 18-20 miles (assuming your muscles are fully loaded with glycogen or 'carbo laoded') you can survive on stored glycogen and basically run as fast to that point as your legs will take you while burning 100% glycogen. For a marathon however, in order to last the full 26.2 miles without the pace dropping off it is important to teach your body to burn fuel efficiently by mixing Glycogen and fat as the fuel supply. In order to do this you have to run very slowly for most of your runs. If 9:54 is a realistic goal pace for you then you should be doing the majority of your runs at about 11 min/mile. This will teach your body to burn fat as a primary fuel instead of Glycogen so that when you go at 9:50/mile your body will be able to use a mixture of fat/glycogen allowing you to run the full 26.2 miles without fading.

If you run your midweek runs fast or do intervals, you are only teaching your body to burn glycogen at a much higher rate which is contradictory to the objective you are trying to achieve. Therefore run all your Runs slower than goal pace and run the pace run midweek at goal pace and your body will learn to survive at goal pace for 26.2 miles on the day.

Oh so confused! It's ok to do the single midweek "pace run" at my top speed, and the other two midweek runs slightly slower, but should do the weekend LSRs a good bit slower, is that it?

If I run more slowly, do I burn more fat? (Wow, if I can learn to use fat as my fuel, I'll never run out! :rolleyes:) So by doing slow LSRs, I'll be used to using fat as fuel, and continue to do this on race day, even if I move a little faster? At what point does my body realise I'm going to be staying out for 4-5 hours, rather than the usual 30 mins, & start burning a mixture?!

shazkea

shortie_chik wrote: »

Oh so confused! It's ok to do the single midweek "pace run" at my top speed, and the other two midweek runs slightly slower, but should do the weekend LSRs a good bit slower, is that it?

The structure of your week depends on the plan you will follow. I think Anne plans on using Hals Novice 1 but this has the 3 midweek runs at easy pace. Correct me if I'm wrong Anne, but you will add some variey of pace work in to one run a week? (Trust in Mentor, she will guide you expertly here )

I'm following Hals Novice 2 which has 1 run per week at pace, 2 @ easy pace and long run at LSR pace.

If you do a pace run during the week, this should be done at your planned Marathon Pace. The easy runs done at easy (slow) pace and the LSR at LSR (slower) pace. You can find your paces if you use the McMillan running calculator and insert the planned marathon time or a latest race time.
(McMillan not the best at predicting marathon time from shorter races according to the boards gurus so rule of thumb Half time x 2 + 10%)

So for example, if your planned finish time was 4:30, paces would be as following:
Long Run: 10:49 - 11:49
Easy Pace: 10:49 - 11:19
Pace Run (MP): ~10:20

I was asking if I should do these runs quicker and as meno points out, this is a bad idea...<insert science bit from meno's post>

That's my take on it but those in the know will be able to advise you much better that I can.

RedRunner

Younganne wrote: »

Hey guys this thread is open to one and all...it doesn't have to be your first marathon to be a Novice. You both have great times there and will have no problems with the training...you might want to look at the Novice 2 or the intermediate plans.

Last year was my second marathon but my first using Boards for support and i used the Novice 2 with the LSR from Novice 1 as i started out too late to go with the LSR from Novice 2

HI There,

I ran DCM last year as my first marathon in 4:45 so I still consider myself a novice though. Would love to break 4 hours this year and hopefully this forum can help me get there. Am definitely doing more runs this year and starting earlier with my preparations so hopefully that will stand to me.
As for PBs so far this is what I've done:

5 mile : 41:30 (Raheny5)...hoping to go sub 40 this year
10k : 51:02 (Samsung Night Run)...hoping to go sub 50 this year
10mile : 1:32 ( Race Series 2011)
Half : 2:10...hoping for sub 2hrs this year
Marathon : 4:45.....hoping for sub 4hrs this year

Mrs Noc

Thanks guys for the encouragement on fitting the runs in. I'll be following the Hals Novice 1 that Anne will be using.

Redrunner, sounds like you did really well last year...good luck with the prep for this year & getting sub 4hrs.

Mr Slow

menoscemo wrote: »

Yeah, I understand that but I just think that when you are following a particular plan it is best to stick to that plan and not introduce elements/theories/paces from different plans.

Agreed! If only I had done that last year....:o

Mr Slow

shortie_chik wrote: »

If I run more slowly, do I burn more fat? (Wow, if I can learn to use fat as my fuel, I'll never run out! :rolleyes:) So by doing slow LSRs, I'll be used to using fat as fuel, and continue to do this on race day, even if I move a little faster? At what point does my body realise I'm going to be staying out for 4-5 hours, rather than the usual 30 mins, & start burning a mixture?!

It's about proportions, the glycogen in your body will get you to 20 or so miles, if 10% of your fuel comes from fat you push out 'The Wall' hopefully to just beyond the finish line allowing you to cover the marathon distance. LSR's teach your body to burn fat for fuel to increase the proportion of fat burned early in the race and also ease the transition to mainly using fat for fuel in the latter stages of the race.

Long runs also increase your stroke volume (the amount of blood your heart can transport around your body with a single beat), this lowers your resting heart rate as a consequence. It develops your whole blood/oxygen transportation system too and is the key workout to get used to time on your feet.

Mr Slow

menoscemo wrote: »

I haven't drank for almost 4 days :eek:

Beer counts as drink! :P

menoscemo

shortie_chik wrote: »

Oh so confused! It's ok to do the single midweek "pace run" at my top speed, and the other two midweek runs slightly slower, but should do the weekend LSRs a good bit slower, is that it?

If I run more slowly, do I burn more fat? (Wow, if I can learn to use fat as my fuel, I'll never run out! :rolleyes:) So by doing slow LSRs, I'll be used to using fat as fuel, and continue to do this on race day, even if I move a little faster? At what point does my body realise I'm going to be staying out for 4-5 hours, rather than the usual 30 mins, & start burning a mixture?!

No need to be confused. The point is to do the majority of your runs slower than marathon effort (you pace may change a little as you go through training so I look to refer to 'effort'). I think it is fine to do one run per week at marathon effort or a touch faster as long as the other runs are slower.

Yes, running slower teaches your body to burn fat for fuel which is vital to a marathon. Mr Slow's explaination is spot on.

BobMac104

What is a good idicator of running your LSR's too fast ?? I was always under the impression that if you're able to talk away then the pace is ok?

elPadrino

Mr Slow wrote: »

Hi Elpadrino, you'll do very well out of marathon training, your 5k time is quite fast but your 10k time doesn't tally with it which means you're lacking endurance, a marathon plan will give you endurance in spades, watch those shorter distance times fall dramatically as you progress along.

tang1 wrote: »

You have similiar times and goals to myself elPadrino. You'll PB in Limerick on Sunday no bother looking at your 5 and 10k times from this year. Best of luck with Sunday and with the months of training ahead.

Mr Slow wrote: »

Elpadrino, most of the pacers are from Boards, make yourself known if running in a pace group.

Thanks for the advice and the words of encouragement. I'll have a quick chat with the pacers before the half on Sunday. Hoping to take a few minutes off my time for the half from last year.

menoscemo

BobMac104 wrote: »

What is a good idicator of running your LSR's too fast ?? I was always under the impression that if you're able to talk away then the pace is ok?

Definitely, if you are still chatting away at the end of a 20 miler then the pace can't have been too fast, but then you would expect to go quite a bit faster on race day . (I know you are worried because you have been doing LSRs at just a few seconds/mile slower then your 3:30 goal, but to be honest it looks to me like you should get closer to 3:20 in cork....)

Other indicators of the LSR's being too fast is that your HR shoots up towards the end (if you wear a HRM), or that you are forsced to slow in the final few miles.

rainbow kirby

Or if it feels like it's taking you most of the week to recover from your long runs, you're probably doing them too fast.

shazkea

menoscemo wrote: »

Other indicators of the LSR's being too fast is that your HR shoots up towards the end (if you wear a HRM), or that you are forsced to slow in the final few miles.

Hoping to get a new Garmin in States next week as my one is kaput. Is it worth shelling out the extra few squids for a HRM. I've never gone by heart rate before!

Mr Slow

shazkea wrote: »

Hoping to get a new Garmin in States next week as my one is kaput. Is it worth shelling out the extra few squids for a HRM. I've never gone by heart rate before!

I bought one to keep on top of my fatigue, it is a great tool to read the warning signs for illness and to see how your training is progressing.

BobMac104

menoscemo wrote: »

Definitely, if you are still chatting away at the end of a 20 miler then the pace can't have been too fast, but then you would expect to go quite a bit faster on race day . (I know you are worried because you have been doing LSRs at just a few seconds/mile slower then your 3:30 goal, but to be honest it looks to me like you should get closer to 3:20 in cork....)

Other indicators of the LSR's being too fast is that your HR shoots up towards the end (if you wear a HRM), or that you are forsced to slow in the final few miles.

OK Thanks Meno (ya i was kinda worried when i read your post!) I am having visions now of a large kaboom by the county hall!

DogSlySmile

menoscemo wrote: »

If you run your midweek runs fast or do intervals, you are only teaching your body to burn glycogen at a much higher rate which is contradictory to the objective you are trying to achieve. Therefore run all your Runs slower than goal pace and run the pace run midweek at goal pace and your body will learn to survive at goal pace for 26.2 miles on the day.

So are you saying it would be counterproductive to try and improve your 10k PB while training for the marathon?

My 10k PB is currently 38:xx, so my mid week intervals will be run at 6 minutes per mile pace to try and improve this PB. Would this kind of session affect my ability to run 20+ miles at 7 minutes per mile?

Mr Slow

DogSlySmile wrote: »

So are you saying it would be counterproductive to try and improve your 10k PB while training for the marathon?

My 10k PB is currently 38:xx, so my mid week intervals will be run at 6 minutes per mile pace to try and improve this PB. Would this kind of session affect my ability to run 20+ miles at 7 minutes per mile?

You could tire yourself out trying to do both but you should see an improvement in your 10k time as a result of marathon training anyway.

menoscemo

DogSlySmile wrote: »

So are you saying it would be counterproductive to try and improve your 10k PB while training for the marathon?

My 10k PB is currently 38:xx, so my mid week intervals will be run at 6 minutes per mile pace to try and improve this PB. Would this kind of session affect my ability to run 20+ miles at 7 minutes per mile?

Most of the runners on this thread are beginners and will be following a programme (HHNovice) which does not include intervals or tempos midweek.

Obviously other programmes do include these type of runs (P&D, Daniels etc) but would also include much higher mileage that the HH novice plans, and thus you will still be getting in loads of easy miles to develop your fat burning. As I have said before, if you are following one particular programme I think you should do that and not mix in elements of other programmes/paces etc. My comments apply to those follow the HH novice plans.

Like Mr Slow though i reckon your 10k PB will come down anyway, purely as a result of the higher mileage and the aerobic development that comes from that. In January I set a strong 5 mile PB while doing 70+ miles per week of easy paced ultra training.

ncmc

Sorry for asking the same questions over and over, but I am struggling to get my head round these slow training runs. I will be starting the Hal Higdon Novice 1 with everyone else in June, but at the moment I am running about 20 miles a week (3 midweek runs of 4 miles and 1 long run of 7/8 miles).

My dream would be to finish the DCM in sub 4, so when I put in 3
Hrs 55 mins to McMillan, I am getting the following:


Endurance Workouts : Pace/Mi

Recovery Jogs : 10:29 to 10:59
Long Runs : 9:29 to 10:29
Easy Runs : 9:29 to 9:59

Stamina Workouts : Pace/Mi

Steady-State Runs : 8:31 to 8:46
Tempo Runs : 8:09 to 8:31
Tempo Intervals : 8:03 to 8:20

So since there are no tempo runs/intervals in HH1, does that mean I should be jogging my midweek runs at 9:29-9:59 and my long weekend run at 9:29-10:29? Like the previous poster, that would feel massively slow to me, I am currently running all my runs at 7:40-8:20 so to slow it down by a 2 mins per mile feels like a step backwards! I haven’t done any half marathons yet, the longest I have raced is 10k in 49 mins.

To run a 3hr 55 marathon, I would need to be running a 9 minute mile on the day itself, would it not be a big ask to go from 9:29-10:29 in training to 9 mins in the marathon?

Sorry to be repeating questions, I’m just struggling to understand all this

Younganne

Long Slow Run, this issue comes up every year many times. The lads have given the reasons above why its so important to do it slow.... The problem for most people at this stage is that they don’t know their planned marathon pace...so for now here are some guides if you want to check a different time check here


Goal finish time = Marathon Pace (miles per hr/km per hr) = LSR Pace (miles per hr/km per hr)


3.30 = 8.01mph/4.59kmph = 8.31-9.31 mph/5.18-5.55kmph|
3.45 = 8.36mph/5.20kmph = 9.06-10.06 mph/5.39-6.16kmph|
4.00 = 9.10mph/5.42kmph = 9.40-10.40 mph/6.00-6.38kmph|
4.15 = 9.44mph/6.03kmph = 10.14-11.14mph/6.22-6.59kmph|
4.30 = 10.19mph/6.25kmph = 10.49-11.49mph/6.43-7.20kmph|
4.45 = 10.53mph/6.46kmph = 11.23-12.23mph/7.04-7.42kmph|
5.00 = 11.28mph/7.07kmph = 11.58-12.58mph/7.26-8.03kmph|

And remember build up slowly and keep things nice and easy. The more miles you are doing the more miles you have to do at a slower pace than normal to allow your body adapt to the extra load

Some more details on the LONG SLOW RUN:D
The most important workout in your marathon training programme is the long run. This is the run you can't really skimp on, the one you really can't do without. When things start getting tough on race day - and they will get tough - the long runs are the training sessions you'll draw strength from. The memory of those miles, in your head and in your legs, could be the thing that pulls you through.

In the first week of the training plan, the 'long' run is 6 miles. 6 miles is not long at all - most of you will have raced that distance already, let alone run it in training. But that distance will build up over the weeks, to 10, 14, 18, 20 miles, distances that are probably worrying you even now . It is important to approach these long runs correctly, right from the beginning, so that as the distances increase you can still handle them.

That means running them slowly.

Your Long Slow Run pace should be 60-90 seconds slower than your planned marathon pace (PMP). If you don't know what your PMP is, that's okay - run at a pace that you can hold a comfortable conversation at. You're still not sure? Slow down some more. In the early weeks of the programme, and early in your runs, you are going to feel like you're barely crawling along. That's just right.

Lot's of people have trouble understanding this, and it's one of the most common marathon questions people have - "If I plan to run the marathon at 9 minute miles, and I feel I can go out and do my long run at 9 minute miles, why do you want me to slow down?"

The problem is, you might be able to run your long run at PMP, but it will exhaust you. Improving your running fitness is an incremental process. It's not about doing one great training session, it's about getting out for your 4/5 runs this week and doing them all well, and doing the same next week, and the week after. Consistency of training is the key to improvement, so you need to be recovered from your long runs in a couple of days - and you won't be if you've run at PMP.

Running faster, and spending less time on your runs, would compromise some of the benefits of your long runs. The longer runs are training your body for endurance running. Your body needs to get better at burning fat, as well as carbohydrates for energy (because you can't store enough carbs for a marathon and when they run out, you hit the wall). Your legs need to get better at using different muscle groups in running. Your feet need to get used to the pounding. You need practice at maintaining good running form when tired. All of these things are easier when you are running slowly.

There is also a mental benefit to the long runs. The marathon is going to take you 4 to 5 hours to run. That can be emotionally exhausting. But the experience of spending hours on your LSRs will make you better prepared for marathon day.

So, three things to remember about your LSRs
· They are the most important sessions every week
· Make sure you get your longest LSRs in (18/20 miles)
· Run them slowly

menoscemo

NCMC, for now it's fine but when you begin marathon training you should slow down.
With the increase in mileage you are doing each week you will be glad of the slower runs, if you have some races planned (race series for example) you can run them flat out and you will realise that in fact you are not going backwards

With Increased mileage come increased risk of injury. If you continue to do the majority of your runs fast you increase your risk of injury exponentially. For your first marathon, most of the battle is to get to the startline injury free.

shazkea

Well that's my time on Boards reduced...from next week I'll still be out on the roads running those slooooowww runs .

I'm counting this time as "pre-marathon plan" madness...not a very catchy title!

Cheers to Anne, meno and Mr Slow for your advice; appreciate it.

RayCun

ncmc wrote: »

I am running about 20 miles a week (3 midweek runs of 4 miles and 1 long run of 7/8 miles).... I am currently running all my runs at 7:40-8:20 ... the longest I have raced is 10k in 49 mins.

You ran your 10k at 7.52/mile, so you are running all your runs at 10k pace. Even if you weren't training for a marathon, this would not be a good idea.

shortie_chik

Thanks Younganne, shazkea, Mr Slow, menoscemo for answering my question so patiently! I had no clue about these different fuel zones & would definitely have burnt myself out too early
I'm going to keep to the paces as indicated on Younganne's chart, even if I'm feeling like I should/can do more. For now, I just want to get to the start line injury-free, and in October if I make it to the finish line under my own steam I'll be thrilled.
I can run really slowly for a really long time, so this makes the later LSRs seem far less scary! Looking forward to burning a whole heap of fat this weekend!

PDCAT

I see quiet a lot of folks here have concerns with regard to their marathon training runs being quiet slow compared to what they are used to running.

Listen to what the guys are saying about your training pace's. From my experience last year, as the mileage increases (particular your LSR's), your legs will be damn glad that your running at a slower pace.

Your legs may feel great now and even 10 - 12 weeks in to the plan, but as soon as the mileage increases' to say 16 - 20 mile LSR's, they won't feel as fresh and you'll be glad of the slower pace.