SUPPORT for victims of sexual assault thread - mod warning post #1

Morag

There are women who will put up with being sexually assaulted rather then being physically assaulted.
That when it somes to forcing a person off them they will only go so far as this person is already showing disregard for them and thier wishes and they worry that the person will then turn violent.
That was is turning out to be sex they won't ie rape (having sex with someone who does not want to and has not said Yes IS rape) want will turn into a violet and aggressive rape.

There is a new campgain in the UK which is trying to tackle the notion that if your not beaten up or hit or it's not a stranger it's not rape.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17251461

Rape is not just about violent attacks by strangers, a campaign to raise sex abuse awareness among teenagers says.

The government fears too many teenagers have a false view of what constitutes rape, and are unaware of the risks of being raped by people their own age.

It is highlighting research suggesting that a third of teenage girls and about one in six boys have experienced some form of sexual violence from a partner.

The new campaign will include TV, cinema and online advertisements.

A 2009 survey by the children's charity NSPCC suggested that the highest proportion of sexual abuse experienced by teens (66%) was perpetrated by people under 18.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, who is launching the campaign, said: "This hard-hitting campaign shows that rape is not just about violent attacks by strangers.

"We want to bring this issue out into the open and get young people talking about the importance of consent.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

They will report a sex assault if it's committed by an adult but when another teenager carries out the offence the same alarm bells don't ring”

Jon Brown NSPCC

"The campaign will give teenagers the facts and support they need to recognise abuse and form healthy relationships."

One of the adverts - aimed at 13 to 18-year-olds - features a teenage girl being coerced into sex at a party.

The girl says "I don't want to", but the boy persists.

A double of the boy appears from behind an invisible wall, and the viewer is asked: "If you could see yourself, would you see rape?"

Jon Brown, head of the NSPCC's sexual abuse programme, said many young people misguidedly accepted rape or other sexual acts as part of a relationship and did nothing about it.

Research had shown as many as 250,000 teenage girls at any one time were suffering in this way but were too embarrassed or frightened to say anything about it, he added.

"They will report a sex assault if it's committed by an adult, but when another teenager carries out the offence the same alarm bells don't ring and they suffer in silence."

Holly Dustin, director of the End Violence Against Women Coalition, welcomed the campaign but said the Department for Education should be promoting it in schools, not just on Twitter and Facebook.

Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg: "We really need to make it clear, no means no"

Lib Dem Equalities Minister Lynne Featherstone, who is launching the campaign alongside Mr Clegg, said: "This campaign aims to dispel the myths that can lead to acceptance of rape in relationships.

"Bringing the issue out in the open will help teenagers feel confident about challenging abuse when they see it and ultimately protect potential victims."

This latest push for greater awareness builds on the government's wider This is Abuse campaign which aims to help teenagers develop healthy relationships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIX9oREk8Fw

Caraville

God that's hard to watch. That's obviously rape though, the girl said that she didn't want to, but the boy went ahead and did it anyway. Doesn't matter that it wasn't particularly violent.

I get what you're saying though, the whole notion of just going ahead with sex because it seems that you'll be in less physical danger if you don't put up a fight.

But as I said earlier, are girls/women under that much threat from men? That it's easier just to have sex with them so that you won't get beaten up? Jesus, that's bleak. Maybe I've just been particularly lucky in my life but I honestly cannot ever recall feeling like I had to do anything I wasn't comfortable with with a boy/man. I would have assumed I was the norm and not the exception though, but maybe I'm wrong.

Edit- Actually I just realised that me saying "I honestly cannot ever recall feeling like I had to do anything I wasn't comfortable with with a boy/man" could sound like I'm up for anything, but that's not what I mean at all! I'd probably be quite reserved if anything- each to their own, but sleeping around/ONS etc isn't my scene so it actually takes a lot to make me comfortable with someone sexually. Bit off-topic, but just thought I should clarify!

Dudess

newmug wrote: »

This thing of "Oh I was drunk and he felt me up" or "I rode him without any protest whatsoever cos I didnt know the consequences if I didnt" is NOT sexual assault, and its pure bull to paint it as such.

No, a person can be sexually assaulted while drunk - and it's worrying that some people seem to think the problem is their drunkenness, not the assault.

If you were drunk, chances are the man was too and yiz were both doing what people do when they're drunk, and if you dont tell someone you dont want something to happen, well they cant bloodywell read your mind!

"Chances are" - very flimsy stuff. What if the assailant is NOT drunk? You don't always get drunk when drinking - even a lot.
What if a person is so drunk that they're barely conscious so they can't give consent?

newmug wrote: »

@Wibbs, I'm well aware that most rapes happen with familiar faces. Bottom line, to me there has to be an element of entrapment, and an element of force. Saying "I was out and drunk" or "I didnt do/say anything because I was too afraid, therefore I must have been sexually assaulted" just doesnt cut it, and in my opinion if those two excuses were eliminated, 90% of sexual assault allegations would disappear.

Random stat supported with "In my opinion" - not good. Also, people CAN feel overpowered and intimidated into carrying out sex acts - surely that in itself is a form of entrapment? Obviously you can think what you like but you don't seem to have a very open mind on this issue. It is not black and white, it is an extremely grey area actually.

I know in the teenage world, some people might just have sex because they hate being "uncool" or to make the other person fancy them, or whatever, but in adult life: the above shouldn't be an issue any longer, so even subtle coercion is a form of being taken advantage of. Maybe the title should be changed to "taken advantage of" rather than "assault". I dunno...

Obviously regretting sex you consented to because you fancy them way less the next day etc doesn't count.

mariaalice

I have never been assaulted, but I have a frightening experience with a flasher and when talking to other people almost everyone has had some sort of not so nice expierienc...every thing form my brother in law telling us how he was felt up by a man at a football match when he was a child to friend telling me about having her bottom fondled by an older man when she was a teenager. This sort of behavior seem to be very common and almost unremarked on by society.

Dudess

Caraville wrote: »

But as I said earlier, are girls/women under that much threat from men? That it's easier just to have sex with them so that you won't get beaten up? Jesus, that's bleak. Maybe I've just been particularly lucky in my life but I honestly cannot ever recall feeling like I had to do anything I wasn't comfortable with with a boy/man. I would have assumed I was the norm and not the exception though, but maybe I'm wrong.

Edit- Actually I just realised that me saying "I honestly cannot ever recall feeling like I had to do anything I wasn't comfortable with with a boy/man" could sound like I'm up for anything, but that's not what I mean at all! I'd probably be quite reserved if anything- each to their own, but sleeping around/ONS etc isn't my scene so it actually takes a lot to make me comfortable with someone sexually. Bit off-topic, but just thought I should clarify!

Not at all - doesn't in the least seem that way.

I agree with your first paragraph - it's a sobering thought that there are such high claims, and I certainly haven't experienced anything more than the usual "Ah go on, let's do it - please?!" stuff when I was a lot younger. Vast majority of men are NOT built that way of course but that doesn't mean many women haven't been coerced - all it takes is one experience. It's fair to point out though that women can do things to make men/women feel uncomfortable in a sexual context also - not whataboutery, but I just think it's only fair to consider sexual assault of anyone.

Bubs99

Hi Caraville,

You obviously don't understand and have not been in these situations. Please don't judge these women and jump to conclusions, thank you very much.

I also was in the same situation where I had sex with someone (broke my virginity) but I knew it didn't feel right and I was too nervous to say no. I was only just gone 15 at the time and that was over a decade ago.

I knew this person for a while and he got me in to a night club, bought me bacardi breezers, I thought I was cool (he was 3 years older than me) and then he pushed me on to the bed later. I felt rotten, disgusting after. But I still stayed friends with him for a long time.

I didn't understand what was going on, I was naiive and vulnerable and I am positive many other women felt the exact same at some stage.

Sometimes, girl's just don't full know what is going on, that is why many young girls get sexually abused and it is kept silent for a long long time also. It may sound pathetic but it really isn't our fault.

Nowadays is a different story...I would be well more aware.

Caraville

Bubs99 wrote: »

Hi Caraville,

You obviously don't understand and have not been in these situations. Please don't judge these women and jump to conclusions, thank you very much.

What conclusions did I jump to and who did I judge??

LegacyUser

It's not all men, not at all but unfortunately there is a small few who are certain type who will do this and get away with it and so will do it again and again, 'thinking ah sure they make a bit of a fuss but the want it really' and they can easily be doing this to several different women over the case of a year.

I knew of one while I was in college, tried it with me, and thankfully I had no fear of physically rebuffing him and it did take a knee to the groin and I was labelled a dyke and a bitch. Turns out that was his MO, esp girls that were in relationships cos they wouldn't want to tell for fear of loosing their fellas. He'd be lurking waiting for them to be worse for wear and trying to call in when no one else was home.

In the end one night all us girls got talking and figured out he'd pretty much sexually assaulted all of us at one stage and tried to intimidate some of us to have sex or waited until we are nearly passed out at parties. Some of the blokes knew and would not let him be left alone anyone cos he'd keep trying it on but they didn't see it as that sinister.
He got ran out of the group and then tried to move to another one and do the same, but we warned people and it got ugly with rows and pints being thrown over two of the girls during a college ball and he blamed the girls for being jealous saying they wanted him to choose between them and tie him down when sure college is for riding as many girls as you can.

He just loved hitting on first years and getting them to do shots, esp those who were 'good girls' who's parents has them in digs, and he used to brag about never using a condom. Really if there was anyone ever who deserved to die of sphyilliis it was that bastard.

stripysocks85

Sharrow wrote: »

I think most women will have been in the circumstance were they didn't want to have sex but felt they could not refuse or didn't feel safe to say no. I know it happened to me when I was young,

I don't call that sexual assault.

I consider that foolishness, and generally, fuelled by alcohol.

howsyourtusk

stripysocks85 wrote: »

I don't call that sexual assault.

I consider that foolishness, and generally, fuelled by alcohol.

So if a girl has sex with a man because she's afraid he will physically harm her if she doesn't you wouldn't consider that an assault? Also, how does that situation have to be fuelled by alcohol?

Millicent

I'm so upset by this thread, I really am. Some of the attitudes coming from women is horrifying to me. Saying things like:

newmug wrote: »

@Wibbs, I'm well aware that most rapes happen with familiar faces. Bottom line, to me there has to be an element of entrapment, and an element of force. Saying "I was out and drunk" or "I didnt do/say anything because I was too afraid, therefore I must have been sexually assaulted" just doesnt cut it, and in my opinion if those two excuses were eliminated, 90% of sexual assault allegations would disappear.

has really brought tears to my eyes and a lump in my gut. If a woman is too afraid to say no, her partner should realise it. Who the feck carries on having sex with a partner who has gone prone, may not be looking at him, isn't participating or seemingly enjoying themselves in any way?

If someone is fall down drunk and someone sees that as an opportunity to take advantage, that is at least a sexual assault.

Saying those scenarios "doesn't cut it" is spectacularly lacking in understanding and frankly disgusting.

This post too:

stripysocks85 wrote: »

I don't call that sexual assault.

I consider that foolishness, and generally, fuelled by alcohol.

How is foolish to be coerced into an uncomfortable situation by someone who is physically stronger than you and may be threatening?

I am really, really horrified to see attitudes like these on here.

Dudess

Yeah good point Mil - how pathetically desperate and like a feral cat would you have to be to find gratification in sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you, or is so drunk they don't even respond...

Kimia

I agree Millicent and Dudess. Newmug's attitude is shocking but sadly I fear common. Plus I don't know what Stripeysocks was thinking with her comment.

Some people still think that the responsibility for rape/sexual assault lies firstly with the victim and not the perpetrator. Everything is thrown on them to judge from the get-go - from what she's wearing, how much she had to drink, did she go home with him? Ah sure, what kind of an idiot was she and what did she think was going to happen?

Yes, you have a personal responsibility to your own safety but at the end of the day, if someone takes away your liberty (whether through rape/robbery/murder - whatever) - the responsibility lies with them and them alone. There is never ever any justification for rape/sexual assault.

Dudess

Can't begin to imagine the hurt it must cause those who have been sexually assaulted.

eviltwin

I've been sexually assaulted 3 times, once as a child which was a horrific experience...when I eventually told my parents they flat out refused to believe me and I had a nervous breakdown. I haven't been able to forgive them and our relationship has been downhill since then.

The second time was in my early 20's in a club, a guy came up to me as I was coming out of the loos and lunged at my breasts. I kicked him in the balls and luckily a bouncer saw it happen and kicked him out.

The third time was a few years back but I don't feel able to talk about that one.

neuro-praxis

I've never been sexually assaulted, thank God. My best friend was raped by her boyfriend when she was 16, taking her virginity. She felt utterly trapped not just during the rape, but by the whole situation, because everyone in their social circle knew they were a couple. It also happened at a party, and he went downstairs to everyone afterwards and bragged that he had "done" her. She continued to date him after this for a while and it was years before she was able to talk about it with anyone and come to terms with what she had been through.

I have, like most women, had a number of near-miss situations. The most terrifying was when I was 16. I was a leggy and attractive girl who got a lot of attention from male customers at the time, and I looked much older than I was. My boss in the bar where I worked played a strange game with me. When customers were present he would ask me out on dates, in a flirty charming way. I would always refuse, but there was a very vocal, jokey pressure from both my co-workers and the customers to say yes. When we were alone however, he would switch off the charm and speak spitefully to me, giving me horrible jobs to do, that only I was asked to complete (for example, cleaning the men's latrine). He made my skin crawl.

Now, every night after our shifts ended at around 2am, the two senior staff with cars would drive everyone else home (we all lived within 5 minutes drive of work). I got into my boss's car one night and he immediately locked the doors. All the other staff were standing outside the car, laughing, waving and saying "Enjoy your date!" This had obviously been planned between the staff. I started to panic. My boss said, "Ah come on now neuro, what's wrong with you, let's go up the mountains."

Now consider this. He was in his 30s. I was 16. It was 2 o'clock in the morning and I was locked into his car. Every situation where I had been alone with him previously he had spoken to me spitefully, and he made my skin crawl.

I started screaming "UNLOCK THE DOORS!" so he eventually unlocked them and I literally ran home alone and never returned to that job. I made a complaint to the owner the following day and I later heard he had been sacked.

That's the worst one, but there are others. I am so thankful I got out of those situations.

Just to give a little perspective here. If you were to ask my co-workers at the time what had happened, they would say it was only a joke, and I just freaked out. Likewise with my friend, nobody in their social circle would have believed her boyfriend raped her. We really need to let go of our assumptions that we always know the "full story" because we've decided the criterion for assault in advance.

eviltwin

Having read the whole thread I am shocked at how many of you have been in situations like this.

I wonder how many men would consider their actions to be assault?

saa

Wow unless you're blocking out the trauma its not the incident that makes you a victim its the ongoing, intense persistent symptoms of PTSD and other issues not just thinking back about sometime a guy you wanted to go to bed with moved too quickly, if your friend is trying to say something happened and she is not able to get over thats fine but if it hasn't had any impact are you in denial or was the incident not is ambiguous that you've gotten over I would not go thinking yourself into a state, go for counselling to explore these feelings but on a few occasions when I was young and naive I was taken advantage of sexually with guys I got with but that is not even on my radar maybe if I had no other issues I would be harking back and over analyzing, the way I see it is I gave consent it and it was more than I intended to do but rape affects the brain more than the body, research that and reflect, if you did not give consent and someone is doing something to you sexually you will naturally get the fight or flight reaction did you go into shock, fight back or run?

Dudess

Interesting article in yesterday's TheJournal.ie about life before the criminalisation (in 1990 :eek:) of marital rape here.
A frightening thing the women spoken to who had lived this reality was: sex against their will, obviously no contraception, lots of pregnancies, children the result of rape...

eviltwin

Dudess wrote: »

Interesting article in yesterday's TheJournal.ie about life before the criminalisation (in 1990 :eek:) of marital rape here.
A frightening thing the women spoken to who had lived this reality was: sex against their will, obviously no contraception, lots of pregnancies, children the result of rape...

Still happens.

LegacyUser

Drink is a big problem. I know of someone who was back at a house party and was pissed. This was her biggest 'crime'. She was with someone consenually and during the night she went sleepwalking, eyes open, butt naked but totally out of it. She fell and was found by a another guy who lived in the house. Whatever happened next we don't know as she has little to no recollection of what happened at all but she does know that she ended up in the housemate's room and when she came to, he was having sex with her. He had a bit of drink in him too. Would you call this sexual assault or was it her own fault for being so drunk and out of it?? From the responses in this thread I presume people will say the latter.

Initally my friend completely blamed herself for being so drunk, it actually took several days before the severity of the incident hit home with her, she is still distraught about it a whole year later but she never reported anything. She told the bloke that she was with consensually that night what happened and his reaction was 'don't worry, these things happen when you're drunk', he is still friends with his housemate but they're not living together any more.

In my opinion the housemate took complete advantage of her and any decent bloke would have turned her around and sent her back to the room that she came from. The sad thing is from the reaction on this thread maybe people think it's the girl's own fault. I find that horrifying to be honest. The scary thing is I have heard similiar stories over the years, usually all involving drink, so I'd say this type of thing happens a lot more than we realise. People need to stop thinking that just because you are drunk then you aren't raped or sexually assaulted. If anything women become more of an easy target when they are drunk.

stripysocks85

howsyourtusk wrote: »

So if a girl has sex with a man because she's afraid he will physically harm her if she doesn't you wouldn't consider that an assault? Also, how does that situation have to be fuelled by alcohol?

I was commenting on the OP. Where does it say she was afraid he would physically harm her??

Millicent wrote: »

This post too:



How is foolish to be coerced into an uncomfortable situation by someone who is physically stronger than you and may be threatening?

I am really, really horrified to see attitudes like these on here.

For someone who has actually been sexually assaulted, I have utmost respect. BUT, for some people, they are too quick to cry 'rape' when it wasn't at all, depends on the situation.

Apologies if I shocked anyone, but obviously the issue of manipulation by someone physically stronger is wrong. I wasn't aware this was the case in the OP, and that's what I was writing my response to.

Also about my drink fuelled comment, sometimes, and I have experienced this with a friend of mine, people [in my example women] get so drunk that they don't REMEMBER what happened. If they wake up in someone else's bed, they could assume they've had sex and been taken advantage of, when really, the night previous they could have agreed to it, or at least not said no.

eviltwin

I can think of a few women I know who would have had sex with someone because they were afraid to say no. And I don't think there was any threat involved, more just a gut instinct that if they said no it could get bad for them.

Millicent

stripysocks85 wrote: »

For someone who has actually been sexually assaulted, I have utmost respect. BUT, for some people, they are too quick to cry 'rape' when it wasn't at all, depends on the situation.

Apologies if I shocked anyone, but obviously the issue of manipulation by someone physically stronger is wrong. I wasn't aware this was the case in the OP, and that's what I was writing my response to.

Also about my drink fuelled comment, sometimes, and I have experienced this with a friend of mine, people [in my example women] get so drunk that they don't REMEMBER what happened. If they wake up in someone else's bed, they could assume they've had sex and been taken advantage of, when really, the night previous they could have agreed to it, or at least not said no.

We don't allow drunk people to drive cars or sign contracts or a number of things because they are operating at diminished capacity. If someone is black out drunk, their ability to consentto sex is diminished. I have woke up, while drunk, to discover someone having sex with me who I certainly didn't consent in any way to have sex with--he was my friend and he took advantage of me in a vulnerable state.

Now I'm not talking about people who regret having sex when the hangover starts but I wouldn't be so quick to discount the experiences of those people you know simply because they had drink taken.

stripysocks85

Millicent wrote: »

We don't allow drunk people to drive cars or sign contracts or a number of things because they are operating at diminished capacity. If someone is black out drunk, their ability to consentto sex is diminished. I have woke up, while drunk, to discover someone having sex with me who I certainly didn't consent in any way to have sex with--he was my friend and he took advantage of me in a vulnerable state.

Now I'm not talking about people who regret having sex when the hangover starts but I wouldn't be so quick to discount the experiences of those people you know simply because they had drink taken.

I wouldn't discount them, BUT, if common sense is diminished .............

I just feel that drink, being drunk, can often be used in protest. Yes there is the other side of the coin where people can be totally and purposefully taken advantage of, due to being drunk [maybe they shouldn't get so drunk in the first place, but, different story].

All I'm saying is, sometimes, women can use 'rape' too freely, when they MIGHT have willingly [drunk or not] gone along with sex the previous night.

I won't say anymore on the matter, as I don't want to upset anyone who has been taken advantage of in such a situation, but, I still stand by what I said.

eviltwin

I think its impossible to say tbh but I would guess more women keep quiet about a situation they know is not right out of fear than make false claims.

Dudess

Stripy I don't think people are including situations where a girl is pissed drunk but still capable of consenting - and then wakes up next morning and regrets it because she doesn't fancy him when she's sober and so levels a rape allegation.
But how often does that happen? There seems to be quite a bit of assumption that lots of women play the rape card when most people are reasonable and would not make light of such an awful crime. Surely most people who wake up to someone they really shouldn't have shagged would just gtfo and pretend it never happened rather than reporting it.
I really think if a person makes a rape allegation it's for a decent reason, and the crackpots who do it for revenge etc are just that: crackpots.

Millicent

stripysocks85 wrote: »

I wouldn't discount them, BUT, if common sense is diminished .............

I just feel that drink, being drunk, can often be used in protest. Yes there is the other side of the coin where people can be totally and purposefully taken advantage of, due to being drunk [maybe they shouldn't get so drunk in the first place, but, different story].

All I'm saying is, sometimes, women can use 'rape' too freely, when they MIGHT have willingly [drunk or not] gone along with sex the previous night.

I won't say anymore on the matter, as I don't want to upset anyone who has been taken advantage of in such a situation, but, I still stand by what I said.

How about we tell rapists not to rape instead and not judge victims who have been preyed on by predators?

What women use the word "rape" too freely? I've never met a victim who didn't have trouble using that word.

As politely as I can, I would strongly suggest you do a bit of reading on rape and sexual assaults before casting judgements.

Dudess

If there were so many women talking about how they were assaulted when it was a lie, or making false allegations to the cops, there would be a lot of men with ruined reputations - I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's very rare.

Caraville

stripysocks85 wrote: »

I don't call that sexual assault.

I consider that foolishness, and generally, fuelled by alcohol.

Seriously? You would just say "meh, you were drunk, what did you expect" to a girl (or boy) who was assaulted?? That is mental. Sorry, but it is. Someone comes to you looking for sympathy after an attack on a night out and you'll just say they were foolish? Wow. My whole point on this thread was that I am so shocked at the numbers who are saying they felt they had to have sex out of fear, but I'm even more shocked at what you've just said.

eviltwin wrote: »

Having read the whole thread I am shocked at how many of you have been in situations like this.

That's what I was saying. I think another poster thought I was saying that it wasn't true or that I was judging people for being in these situations and nothing could be further from the truth. I just hope those of you who have been put in a position you felt you had no control over have been able to cope with it. I don't know if I could be so strong.

I wonder how many men would consider their actions to be assault?

I really wonder that too. If so many women reckon they were taken advantage of, then there must be a hell of a lot of guilty men out there. Maybe they don't see themselves as guilty, or maybe they think it was just "one of those things" that happens when you're growing up. All I know is that no matter what way you look at it, it's bloody scary.