SUPPORT for victims of sexual assault thread - mod warning post #1

Kimia

Amacachi, what exactly are you asking here? You want people to say that if the girl appears fine and not drunk and she consents then it's not rape? I would agree with that. Of course it's not rape, she's drunk but she consented.

Please clarify what your point is.

Millicent

amacachi wrote: »

This is what I'm getting at, where is the line where one cannot consent and where the other person can be blamed for misreading a situation? If someone seems fine to consent then is that it?

As for the idea of not being able to do anything when ****faced, bull****.

It is a difficult one to call and there is definitely room for a lot of confusion/misconception in drunken encounters.

I think Ireland would have a lot less problems with this issue (drink and consent) if we didn't have a culture that encouraged getting plastered to meet anyone new.

That said, I know a small few guys who home in on the drunk girls on a night out and I would never leave a friend alone with them--their behaviour tends to be just on that line of being predatory and it wouldn't surprise me if they crossed that line at all. They are the same guys that would ply a girl with drink in order to be able to sleep with her, never thinking there is anything creepy in making someone who would never ordinarily have any interest in them pliable and suggestible with alcohol.

howsyourtusk

amacachi wrote: »

How many drinks before someone can't give consent?

How many fish in the sea? Don't be ridiculous, it's got nothing to do with number of drinks. You're not replying to my posts, you're just asking new questions while refusing to address the points I'm making.

amacachi

Millicent wrote: »

It is a difficult one to call and there is definitely room for a lot of confusion/misconception in drunken encounters.

I think Ireland would have a lot less problems with this issue (drink and consent) if we didn't have a culture that encouraged getting plastered to meet anyone new.

That said, I know a small few guys who home in on the drunk girls on a night out and I would never leave a friend alone with them--their behaviour tends to be just on that line of being predatory and it wouldn't surprise me if they crossed that line at all. They are the same guys that would ply a girl with drink in order to be able to sleep with her, never thinking there is anything creepy in making someone who would never ordinarily have any interest in them pliable and suggestible with alcohol.

I know a couple of those lads myself, dirty bastards. Couple turned out to be lads I wouldn't have suspected at all. I was at a party where a friend basically licked my face for a coupla minutes before I could get her away. Kept an eye on her for a while before I left and told her friend what a state she was in. Didn't stop her doing it again a couple of years later which was disappointing.

Kimia wrote: »

Amacachi, what exactly are you asking here? You want people to say that if the girl appears fine and not drunk and she consents then it's not rape? I would agree with that. Of course it's not rape, she's drunk but she consented.

Please clarify what your point is.

Some of the stories here and what I've heard from others are from one perspective, I'm trying to get others. I've been ****faced on nights out and been told over the next few days I seemed fine. I've seen friends get off with people when they seemed totally fine but the next day they genuinely seemed like they didn't want to have done it. I couldn't have blamed the other person involved in such cases because even as someone who knew them well I thought they were fine. In their heads it was a completely different scenario.

Sul

If somebody is coherent and seems fine and up for it then yes it is consensual. If they dont remember it the next day then it is up to them to piece the night together. Everybody has these nights where they dont remember. Unfortunately it is one of the reasons why date rape drugs are popular. There are men too who prey on very drunk girls and a girl who is hardly responding is obviously not able to consent. I too have had nights out I cant remember where people have said I was fine. Ive had to piece together a night from friends. I tend to know my limit though and have been spiked. Fortunately I have really good friends who spotted that I was out of sorts and got me home.
The best advice I can give you is to just stay away from the ones who might look like they've had one too many. At least that way you definitely cant land yourself in trouble....

Sul

Sul wrote: »

If somebody is coherent and seems fine and up for it then yes it is consensual. If they dont remember it the next day then it is up to them to piece the night together. Everybody has these nights where they dont remember.
. I too have had nights out I cant remember where people have said I was fine. Ive had to piece together a night from friends.

Is that not a bit worrying

I tend to know my limit though and have been spiked.

how do you know that if blacking out is commonplace for you?

The best advice I can give you is to just stay away from the ones who might look like they've had one too many.

agreed

Tigger, your story is just sickening

Sul

Where did I say blacking out was common? Im 28 so yes I have had one or 2 nights that have been blurry like most people. And no it isn't worrying because its not something I make a habit of especially the older I get. I rarely drink now. I know i was spiked because A. The last thing I remember was finishing my 3rd drink and B. My friends knew because they know how I am when ive had a few drinks and knew I had not drank enough to be completely incoherent..

Caraville

stripysocks85 wrote: »

And Caraville - where did I say I had no sympathy?

Perhaps you didn't say it in so many words- but in reply to Sharrow saying that girls who "didn't want to have sex but felt they could not refuse or didn't feel safe to say no" was not sexual assault but what you would call

foolishness, and generally, fuelled by alcohol

If that's not a lack of sympathy, I don't know what is. Somebody having to have sex because they are afraid of what will happen if they don't is ABSOLUTELY sexual assault. I can't see how people could view that in any other way. You're entitled to your opinion but I honestly can't see how somebody having sex out of fear of the other person couldn't be assault or rape.

Morag

Sul wrote: »

The best advice I can give you is to just stay away from the ones who might look like they've had one too many. At least that way you definitely cant land yourself in trouble....

titan18

Like, I'm a guy, I don't drink, and if someone says no, that's cool and I would hope that most of my male friends would be of the same opinion in that no means no, and would be respectful enough to back off in that scenario. I don't think I'd be friends with them if they held a different opinion tbh.

Also, as I'm always sober on a night out I wouldn't go near a girl who had been drinking, incase she's actually really drunk but just appears fine. It's a sketchy area to get in if you are sober imo.

But, the scenario of someone saying yes, out of fear that I(or any guy) may attack her or get violent is a bit odd to me. If she says yes, and makes no moves at any point to stop the guy, to most men, this is consensual.

Sul

Sharrow I never ever said that drinking was the crime!!!!!! I was only stating to the person above who asked, that if he was unsure as to what was consensual if a girl was drunk he would be better to stay away from a girl who might be too drunk!!

Millicent

titan18 wrote: »

But, the scenario of someone saying yes, out of fear that I(or any guy) may attack her or get violent is a bit odd to me. If she says yes, and makes no moves at any point to stop the guy, to most men, this is consensual.

That fear isn't something that comes out of the blue. That comes from the behaviour of the guy she is with or comments he makes or a difficult situation she finds herself in where saying "no" would be dangerous. So if the guy was previously violent or potentially so, or, like I read on another thread, would have likely left her in a strange place by herself in the early hours of the morning where she would have been unsafe.

There are myriad scenarios where something like that is feasible and can and does happen. Often it's through manipulation of the victim. It's not a situation where a guy finds himself with a girl and secretly she is not okay with having sex with him--there's always a lot more to it than that and clear signs that this is the case. What I'm driving at is that no decent guy will unwittingly find himself sexually assaulting a girl without prior warning as to that possibility--there is always something else at play in such a situation that both partners are usually aware of.

Caraville

titan18 wrote: »

But, the scenario of someone saying yes, out of fear that I(or any guy) may attack her or get violent is a bit odd to me. If she says yes, and makes no moves at any point to stop the guy, to most men, this is consensual.

In fairness, I understand what you're saying- like unless the girl says no, a boy/man is going to assume she's game ball. And to be honest, I'd imagine in a court you'd be hard pressed to find someone guilty of rape unless the girl had been very clear she didn't want to have sex.

And what frightens one girl might not frighten another as much. It's a really grey area.

Caraville

Millicent wrote: »

That fear isn't something that comes out of the blue. That comes from the behaviour of the guy she is with or comments he makes or a difficult situation she finds herself in where saying "no" would be dangerous. So if the guy was previously violent or potentially so, or, like I read on another thread, would have likely left her in a strange place by herself in the early hours of the morning where she would have been unsafe.

There are myriad scenarios where something like that is feasible and can and does happen. Often it's through manipulation of the victim. It's not a situation where a guy finds himself with a girl and secretly she is not okay with having sex with him--there's always a lot more to it than that and clear signs that this is the case. What I'm driving at is that no decent guy will unwittingly find himself sexually assaulting a girl without prior warning as to that possibility--there is always something else at play in such a situation that both partners are usually aware of.

Really well put. I was trying to say something like that but kept deleting it cos I couldn't really phrase it right!

Sul

The worse thing about most kinds of rape is that they can happen with little physical violence and can make it very hard for a person to come forward and report it. The fear thing can be applied to many situations...a person who may be.mentally abusive towards their partner...a girl at a party who may be cornered...sometimes it can be applied to a scenario where a woman could be dragged down an alley way, go completely into shock and not say anything and not fight back. Sometimes women dont fight back because they are afraid they might be killed.
People aren't stupid though and you can generally gauge if your partner is not comfortable with a situation and end it. Rape is probably the most horrendous thing I can think of to happen to a person. And you dont necessarily have to be beaten half to death in the process. A lot people suffer in silence too. Mostly because of sterotypes in society such as the 'she drank too much' or 'she wears short skirts' one.
Nobody asks to be raped. Ever.

titan18

Millicent wrote: »

That fear isn't something that comes out of the blue. That comes from the behaviour of the guy she is with or comments he makes or a difficult situation she finds herself in where saying "no" would be dangerous. So if the guy was previously violent or potentially so, or, like I read on another thread, would have likely left her in a strange place by herself in the early hours of the morning where she would have been unsafe.

There are myriad scenarios where something like that is feasible and can and does happen. Often it's through manipulation of the victim. It's not a situation where a guy finds himself with a girl and secretly she is not okay with having sex with him--there's always a lot more to it than that and clear signs that this is the case. What I'm driving at is that no decent guy will unwittingly find himself sexually assaulting a girl without prior warning as to that possibility--there is always something else at play in such a situation that both partners are usually aware of.

I agree with that, but there are probably cases that are not clear cut where a girl doesn't want to have sex but agrees to it, even if that particular guy has done nothing to force her into it. Caraville addressed it earlier in the thread too.

For example, there are probably potential scenarios where the girl might have said no before and ended up being violently assaulted as a result. There are guys out there who will probably resort to violent in those situations. The girl in the future might say yes to avoid getting violently assaulted (but the guy might be completely unaware of this, and more than likely assumes yes means yes

_petulia_

No, I've never been sexually assaulted which is lucky for me judging by a lot of the posts in this thread.

Acacia

I don't know if it would count as a 'serious' sexual assault and certainly not a rape, but I've definetely experienced unwanted sexual contact before. Usually it has been just groping ( drunk idiots squeezing my ass or tits, has happened to virtually every girl I know). One time me and my best mate were sitting in a pub just having a chat. Two lads came over, trying to chat us up. Fair enough enough, nothing wrong with that. But then one of them went around behind me (we were sitting at high stools) and started running his hands all over my body. It was bizarre to say the least. He didn't go away until my friend basically told the pair of them to fcuk off.

Another time, one Halloween, I was at a club in fancy-dress with a group of girls. This rather rotten auld lad (well, probably in his forties) came over to me and started saying how he liked my costume and asked if he could get a picture with me. That should've set off some alarm bells but I went along with it, as I didn't want to be rude. Anyhoo, I was standing beside him as my friend took the picture and then he basically grabbed me so I couldn't move and stuck his tongue down my throat. That's the best way I can describe it. I was in such shock I didn't push him off me for about half a minute. My friend who was taking the photo said she didn't know what to do , it happened so fast.

I remember the next day feeling kinda violated even though ''it was only a kiss''. After reading some of the stuff that has happened to other people though I feel I've gotten off lightly in the grand scheme of things.

Sul

Acacia wrote: »

I don't know if it would count as a 'serious' sexual assault and certainly not a rape, but I've definetely experienced unwanted sexual contact before. Usually it has been just groping ( drunk idiots squeezing my ass or tits, has happened to virtually every girl I know). One time me and my best mate were sitting in a pub just having a chat. Two lads came over, trying to chat us up. Fair enough enough, nothing wrong with that. But then one of them went around behind me (we were sitting at high stools) and started running his hands all over my body. It was bizarre to say the least. He didn't go away until my friend basically told the pair of them to fcuk off.

Another time, one Halloween, I was at a club in fancy-dress with a group of girls. This rather rotten auld lad (well, probably in his forties) came over to me and started saying how he liked my costume and asked if he could get a picture with me. That should've set off some alarm bells but I went along with it, as I didn't want to be rude. Anyhoo, I was standing beside him as my friend took the picture and then he basically grabbed me so I couldn't move and stuck his tongue down my throat. That's the best way I can describe it. I was in such shock I didn't push him off me for about half a minute. My friend who was taking the photo said she didn't know what to do , it happened so fast.

I remember the next day feeling kinda violated even though ''it was only a kiss''. After reading some of the stuff that has happened to other people though I feel I've gotten off lightly in the grand scheme of things.

What bothers me is that there are men out there who think it is acceptable to behave like this. I would have clamped down on his tongue with my teeth. What a disgusting human being he is.....

_petulia_

There was a time when a guy came over to me in a student bar and asked me if either of the guys either side of me were my boyfriend. When I said they weren't he tried to kiss me.

Does that count as a sexual assault?

Sul

Nina_G wrote: »

There was a time when a guy came over to me in a student bar and asked me if either of the guys either side of me were my boyfriend. When I said they weren't he tried to kiss me.

Does that count as a sexual assault?

To be honest I think some men are chancers but its not acceptable behaviour to just walk up to someone you dont know, grab them and try to kiss or shove your tongue down their throat. Some people pass it off as a bit of fun but I personally think it is disgraceful and disrespectful. I would class it as a form of sexual assault. Probably not strong enough to call the guards over but I would certainly give the person in question a wide berth if I met them again.
You have no right to touch a person without their say so...

titan18

Nina_G wrote: »

There was a time when a guy came over to me in a student bar and asked me if either of the guys either side of me were my boyfriend. When I said they weren't he tried to kiss me.

Does that count as a sexual assault?

I wouldn't class it as sexual assault, just that the guy is an assh0le, and was probably drunk (which ain't an excuse)

_petulia_

titan18 wrote: »

I wouldn't class it as sexual assault, just that the guy is an assh0le, and was probably drunk (which ain't an excuse)

I thought the same to be quite honest, drunk and an assh0le. I know that doesn't excuse it but I didn't really read into it. Plus he earned a nice slap for his efforts

amacachi

Nina_G wrote: »

I thought the same to be quite honest, drunk and an assh0le. I know that doesn't excuse it but I didn't really read into it. Plus he earned a nice slap for his efforts

I'd love to live in a world where that reaction was seen as OK for anyway who had unwanted advances.

_petulia_

amacachi wrote: »

I'd love to live in a world where that reaction was seen as OK for anyway who had unwanted advances.

To be honest, the guy was invading my personal space, it was perfectly OK in my opinion, self-defence even.

Owen_S

The difference in attitude between a woman touching a random man's arse and vice versa is still astonishing.

Acacia

Owen_S wrote: »

The difference in attitude between a woman touching a random man's arse and vice versa is still astonishing.

Neither is acceptable, imo.

Sul

Acacia wrote: »

Owen_S wrote: »

The difference in attitude between a woman touching a random man's arse and vice versa is still astonishing.

Neither is acceptable, imo.

Me too. I certainly wouldn't just grab a random mans arse out of nowhere!

Kimia

Owen_S wrote: »

The difference in attitude between a woman touching a random man's arse and vice versa is still astonishing.

Here we go!

LegacyUser

As to the thread title.....I guess I have yeah. I have, like others encountered some general unwanted sexual attention such as some guy I had just met, who was a friend of a friend describe exactly what he would like to do to me sexually for a number of minutes and then dropping his pants. I felt absolutely awful and when I retold the story (obviously not in detail as it was far too vulgar and aggressive) to the guys who had invited him to the pub, they just laughed it off as "Oh that's just X, he's always been a bit weird" I felt totally violated.

This incident probably hit me harder due to my history - basically I was sexually assaulted at a friend's 21st bday party in his spare bedroom. I had recently broken up with the guy from a relationship of around a year and a half and so staying in his house was like staying in my own home. I was a lot worse for wear after a night of drinking and so was brought up to bed by him a few "friends". I passed out/slept for a good while until I woke up to possibly my best male friend at the time groping me under my top. This proceeded to more inappropriate touching which I won't go into but thankfully I wasn't raped in the "conventional" definition. However, it affected me hugely - I developed PTSD, took a year out from college and still have huge issues with intimacy and trust in men. The perp also tried to contact me continuously after the incident and continued to go to my college classes and act normally for months after. He also fabricated a story as to why I and my other friends had stopped hanging out with him.

I blamed myself and still do to a point as I cannot help but feel if I had not drank as much or had responded more aggressively I would've stopped it. Or the feeling that it wasn't "real" rape and so therefore I should just get over it also bothers me greatly. I feel like it wasn't serious enough to demand the strong reaction to it that I normally have. I know from what counsellors have told me this isn't the case but the guilt won't go away and so I will always feel it was my fault and I have little to complain about.

The fact that it wasn't the stereotypical perception of a "stranger with a knife down a dark alley who uses force" really affects my feelings towards the whole thing. I might be able to give the situation more gravity if it had occurred that way. As it stands I feel weak for even mentioning it. And I feel like I let myself open to what happened. I know this isn't right. I know if it happened to a friend I'd feel angry and indignant on her behalf. But it's different when it's you.